A Really Stupid Question About Theory

[yepmop]

Hi All

I'm currently doing a music theory course which is going well but I think I'm missing some very fundemental knowledge that is preventing me from peicing eveything together.

it's a question a that I feel really embaressed about asking is i think I should really know this. I did ask my online tutour but his responce may as well have been written in swahiliy.

Okay, say the song is in the key of C Major can I only use notes from that major scale or can i use different scales to match the appropiate chords within the song?

Answers as simple as possible

Any help much appreciated.

Many thanks

Tony

[Bilbo]

Yes and no. Most songs that are 'in C' are only 'in C' for the first bit of the tuen. Many songs change keys several times throughout the piece. In simple terms, you can 'only' play notes from C in a song that starts in C up to the point where it changes key (this is not an absolute but, at this stage, it is useful to think in those terms).

[b]The straight answer to your question is no; if a chord says G7 the scales you use need to relate to that and not the home key. They may be the same thing but they may not. [/b]

'In C' sometimes only means that the chart is written with no accidentals in the key signature but, as the chords pass, you will find chords with sharps and flats in them because the song is modulating (moving/shifting) from one key to another. Key signatures only apply to notes not the chord symbols above the stave. SHow tunes using dots all indcate key changes whereas fake book charts rarely do so.

PS there is no such thing as a stupid question, just a question that makes you look stupid

[Doddy]

Take a look at the chord tones rather than the scale.
For example, lets say chords went C, Dm, Em. They are all diatonic (in key) to C major, but it would make more
sense to play the strong tones than just play notes in the C major scale. So, with this example the chord tones
(I, III, V) will be C(C, E, G), Dm (D, F, A) and Em (E, G, .
Now, if you take a blues in C the chords will be C7, F7, G7 (I7,IV7, V7). In this example you couldn't just use notes from the
C major scale because certain notes won't work with the chords -C7 (C, E, G, Bb), F7 (F, A, C, Eb) G7 (G, B, D, F)-
so it would be better to approch it using the individual chord tones rather than try to blanket them with the C major scale.
Later you can start adding scale tones as passing tones, but then we are starting to go slightly modal, but for now
chord tones are where it's at.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='yepmop' timestamp='1360159122' post='1965799']...or can i use different scales to match the appropiate chords within the song?...[/quote]
Good afternoon, Tony...

I'm not an expert, so take this with a pinch or two of salt, but...

I'd be wary of thinking 'scales' in this context. As a general 'rule', I would suggest that, as the chords progress throughout the song, that the notes of those chords be considered as 'safe to play' (they will fit...). I would not recommend associating scales with these chords; sometimes it's helpful, but many times not. Go for the chord notes (arpeggios...), not scales.
Hope this helps, and subject to correction...

[Antiloco]

Hi there mate. Thats not a stupid question at all. I will try to put it as simple as possible because I remember having the same confusion. The scales to use over C major will mostly be scales with notes common to that totality. Any scale with the same notes as a C major (Ionian) will be usable as long as you're not looking for more tension in which case lots of other scales may be used. The more notes you have that doesn't belong to C Ionian the more tense its going to sound.

Example: Over C Ionian you could use d Dorian because they are the same notes. You could also use A minor pentatonic or the arpeggio of say F major 7... Just because they all have the same notes as in C Ionian. In the end is just a matter if emphasis. It won't sound the same when you play say B locrian over C major. Not because the notes are different but because your thinking will be different.
Please ask away, there's nothing wrong in seeking help. Getting stuck in your development is much worse.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Antiloco

[lowdown]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1360161681' post='1965889']
Many songs change keys several times throughout the piece.
[/quote]

Good grief, i remember those days.......



Garry

[yepmop]

Thanks very much guys for the answers, very much appreciated and has made things a lot more clearer than before.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Antiloco' timestamp='1360164125' post='1965951']
Hi there mate. Thats not a stupid question at all. I will try to put it as simple as possible because I remember having the same confusion. The scales to use over C major will mostly be scales with notes common to that totality. Any scale with the same notes as a C major (Ionian) will be usable as long as you're not looking for more tension in which case lots of other scales may be used. The more notes you have that doesn't belong to C Ionian the more tense its going to sound.

Example: Over C Ionian you could use d Dorian because they are the same notes. You could also use A minor pentatonic or the arpeggio of say F major 7... Just because they all have the same notes as in C Ionian. In the end is just a matter if emphasis. It won't sound the same when you play say B locrian over C major. Not because the notes are different but because your thinking will be different.
Please ask away, there's nothing wrong in seeking help. Getting stuck in your development is much worse.
[/quote]
You've got to be very careful about moving into modal territory though. As Bilbo and myself mentioned,often the harmony
isn't diatonic to the key-Blues being a simple example.In these case keeping to the major modes of the home key is not
particularly going to work. A lot of songs aren't really suited to modal playing,so just because a piece is in whatever key,
doesn't mean that the notes of that scale will work. That's why working on chord tones will be a big advantage and,in many
cases,will work better than scalar playing.

[Antiloco]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1360182966' post='1966412']
You've got to be very careful about moving into modal territory though. As Bilbo and myself mentioned,often the harmony
isn't diatonic to the key-Blues being a simple example.In these case keeping to the major modes of the home key is not
particularly going to work. A lot of songs aren't really suited to modal playing,so just because a piece is in whatever key,
doesn't mean that the notes of that scale will work. That's why working on chord tones will be a big advantage and,in many
cases,will work better than scalar playing.
[/quote]

Well it works for Holdsworth, it works for Henderson, it works for Corea and it certainly works for me. You obviously have to listen when you improvise and play over chords. Scales are just note pools, big families to chose notes (members) from. You have to study a lot to know what members will sound best under what circumstances.
We dont play theory, we play music. (I know I try). [size=4]The less rules the better. Of course playing chord tones will be safe but is music really about being safe? Hmmmm....[/size]

[Roland Rock]

The way I read Antiloco's original reply, he was giving advice about playing modes over just one chord (the C Maj), rather than talking about playing the C Maj-based modes over all of the chords in the song. Is this right Antiloco?
If so, I think you and Doddy talking about different things (Antiloco talking about playing modes over a single chord, and Doddy talking about playing over the various chords in the song) and are both right :-)

Edited February 6, 2013 by Roland Rock

[Antiloco]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1360188240' post='1966545']
The way I read Antiloco's original reply, he was giving advice about playing modes over just one chord (the C Maj), rather than talking about playing the C Maj-based modes over all of the chords in the song. Is this right Antiloco?
If so, I think you and Doddy talking about different things (Antiloco talking about playing modes over a single chord, and Doddy talking about playing over the various chords in the song) and are both right :-)
[/quote]

Thats right mate all I am saying is that all the possible choices over one chord are going to have something in common: They are the same notes whatever the name of the scale or arpeggio you use. It's just a question of emphasis.

Jus read my first post. I think it's clear enough.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Antiloco' timestamp='1360186599' post='1966492']
Well it works for Holdsworth, it works for Henderson, it works for Corea and it certainly works for me. You obviously have to listen when you improvise and play over chords. Scales are just note pools, big families to chose notes (members) from. You have to study a lot to know what members will sound best under what circumstances.
[/quote]
Are you now talking about soloing or comping? If you are comping and you are playing modally over the changes,chances are that you are
going to get some pretty strange looks from the band leader or soloist.You need to be aware of the actual chords rather than just the key. When you are soloing,you have more freedom to play that way,but even then you should still be aware of the changes. If you are soloing over a one or two
chord vamp,you can play very modally and even play 'out' as long as you resolve it somewhere.
[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1360188240' post='1966545']
If so, I think you and Doddy talking about different things (Antiloco talking about playing modes over a single chord, and Doddy talking about playing over the various chords in the song) and are both right :-) [/quote]
Yeah,I'm talking about comping over changes-I assume that is what the OP is talking about.
[quote name='Antiloco' timestamp='1360188993' post='1966568'] Thats right mate all I am saying is that all the possible choices over one chord are going to have something in common: They are the same notes whatever the name of the scale or arpeggio you use. It's just a question of emphasis. [/quote]
Yes they are the same notes,but it's about the context in which they are used.
Take a simple tune like 'Red Baron' or 'Oye Como Va'-both are ii-V's in the key of G ( Amin7-D7). Even though the key signature will
be written as G major (one #),if you are highlighting the G major scale(the I chord),it sounds 'out'.It works better,initially, if you base it off the actual chords or,if you want to go modal, A Dorian and D Mixolydian.It doesn't sound like it wants to resolve to the I chord.
Same notes,different context.

[Antiloco]

Doddy: I rest my case. The op wanted an easy, practical explanation over what could be played over one chord. I think I was clear enough on my first post.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Antiloco

[Doddy]

[quote name='Antiloco' timestamp='1360217910' post='1966767']
Doddy: I rest my case. The op wanted an easy, practical explanation over what could be played over one chord. I think I was clear enough on my first post.
[/quote]
So was I.

[Antiloco]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1360239763' post='1967141']
So was I.
[/quote]

Good for you!

[Doddy]

Thanks

[jakenewmanbass]

Most important thing is to realise that there are no stupid questions... if you don't know how else do you change that than asking or reading about it.
It's great to ask questions as most people, especially here, like to help
:0)

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='yepmop' timestamp='1360159122' post='1965799']
Hi All

I'm currently doing a music theory course which is going well but I think I'm missing some very fundemental knowledge that is preventing me from peicing eveything together.

it's a question a that I feel really embaressed about asking is i think I should really know this. I did ask my online tutour but his responce may as well have been written in swahiliy.

Okay, say the song is in the key of C Major can I only use notes from that major scale or can i use different scales to match the appropiate chords within the song?

Answers as simple as possible

Any help much appreciated.

Many thanks

Tony
[/quote]

[i]Very short answer:[/i]

You have to look at the notes in all the chords of the song.

[i]Short answer:[/i]

For example if its a I IV V progression (C major / F major / G major chords) then the notes are C E G, F A C and G B D and you can therefore see that the notes making up the whole progression are C D E F G A B which is indeed the major scale in the key of C.

[b]However [/b]if you look the chords in a lot of "major key" rock / blues / country etc songs then you will see that quite often the chords contain notes outside the strict major scale.

This the most common example of such non-major-key notes is using the b7 note of the key i.e.in C major key that would be Bb.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1360429669' post='1970309']
[i]Very short answer:[/i]

You have to look at the notes in all the chords of the song.

[i]Short answer:[/i]

For example if its a I IV V progression (C major / F major / G major chords) then the notes are C E G, F A C and G B D and you can therefore see that the notes making up the whole progression are C D E F G A B which is indeed the major scale in the key of C.

[b]However [/b]if you look the chords in a lot of "major key" rock / blues / country etc songs then you will see that quite often the chords contain notes outside the strict major scale.

[b]This the most common example of such non-major-key notes is using the b7 note of the key i.e.in C major key that would be Bb.[/b]
[/quote]

Some decent info here but the bit I've highlighted is quite misleading, once you add a b7 the chord nature changes to dominant and while it has a major third, to describe it as major is not quite right it's really quite a distinct sound, because it has a very specific function in the group of chords relating to the major key, that being one of setting up a resolution or cadence situation, it is a chord that has motion in it...
Also many I IV V sequences use all dominant chords. So the major 7th can sound out of place.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1360432357' post='1970388']
Some decent info here but the bit I've highlighted is quite misleading, once you add a b7 the chord nature changes to dominant and while it has a major third, to describe it as major is not quite right it's really quite a distinct sound, because it has a very specific function in the group of chords relating to the major key, that being one of setting up a resolution or cadence situation, it is a chord that has motion in it...
[/quote]

Not sure I get your point. I was referring to the chords in a song collectively implying an overall harmony that includes a b7 with respect to the key of the song (which may or may not include an actual I7).

[quote]
Also many I IV V sequences use all dominant chords. So the major 7th can sound out of place.
[/quote]

Which is an example what I was trying to say.

Edited February 10, 2013 by bassman7755

[ubassman]

The art is to flow the notes that are relevant to the current chord into the next. If you have a piece that is written entirely in C major modal chords then playing just the notes strictly in the key signature of C Major will work i.e.

I C major 7 ,
II D minor 7,
III E minor 7,
IV F major 7,
V G Dominant 7,
VI A minor 7,
VII B diminished

Its more common however to find chords progressions outside of these purely modal chords . These modified chords which may still be written in the C Major key signature may just be a modal chord but with a flattened or sharpened note ( or two) . The point being that you then have notes that are specific to the that modified chord in the mix ( the flattened 7th, sharpened 5th etc) and also still some notes from the C major family ( i.e. the key signature that the piece is written in ) that also fit the family of the non modal chord. If you play just the notes that are in the C Major scale and theres a modified chord requiring a flattened or sharpened note ( think black notes on the piano when paying in C major ) - it probably won't sound that clever to play the white note ! That said, if you are quick thinking enough a 'bum' note can be turned into a 'passing' note ! I think it was Miles Davis who said you are only ever half a tone away from getting it right !

Edited February 10, 2013 by ubassman

[ubassman]

This might be interesting - just came across it in another thread http://scottsbasslessons.com/shape-shifting

[Lord Sausage]

Is there an easy way to explain theory. I understand theory to quite a high level and whenever i read people explain it to others my brain just glosses over and it almost makes me not understand it!

[ubassman]

...I guess its similar to talking about mathematics ...easy to make something simple sound much more complicated than it actually is ! Best way is to grab your bass and put the theory into practice unravelling the wordage into music!

Edited February 10, 2013 by ubassman

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1360455049' post='1970856']
Not sure I get your point. I was referring to the chords in a song collectively implying an overall harmony that includes a b7 with respect to the key of the song (which may or may not include an actual I7).
[/quote]
I may have read what you were trying to say wrong but I was trying to outline the importance of seeing a chord in relation to it's function:
When a chord has a major third and a minor seventh it's function is dominant. I felt that that info was missing from the discourse and regard it as fundamentally important.
I was hoping it would be a useful addition to the info the OP sought