Zawinuls Cheesy Synths

[Fionn]

There are many things that I love about Weather Report from the Jaco era ... but Zawinuls [b][color=#FFA500]cheesy[/color][/b] synths are not one of them.

Don't get me wrong. As a composer and player, I think the man was truly brilliant, but lets face it ... he had a penchant for the smelly stuff. Aye, a prolific purveyor of the stilton-esque, was Joseph. The times and technology cant be blamed for this. Herbie, for example, was sounding infinately classier in those days.

Oh, if the music could be reborn I'd love to hear that Weather Report/ Jaco combo, those pieces, those arrangements with the synth parts reconsidered. Less over-bearing, more sympathetic. Rinse out the gross pads, the invasive and torturous plastic lead sounds.

So much of Jacos precious playing is lost in this mess of fromage.

[uncle psychosis]

I'd have to agree. The production on a lot of the Weather Report stuff has not aged well.

[Wil]

I often feel the same way about Jaco's sound - it's all fairly close to the edge of taste, really! Saying that, Weather Report are still something of a guilty pleasure. Much like Yes. And Genesis.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1360283366' post='1968215']
There are many things that I love about Weather Report from the Jaco era ... but Zawinuls [b][color=#FFA500]cheesy[/color][/b] synths are not one of them.

Don't get me wrong. As a composer and player, I think the man was truly brilliant, but lets face it ... he had a penchant for the smelly stuff. Aye, a prolific purveyor of the stilton-esque, was Joseph. The times and technology cant be blamed for this. Herbie, for example, was sounding infinately classier in those days.

Oh, if the music could be reborn I'd love to hear that Weather Report/ Jaco combo, those pieces, those arrangements with the synth parts reconsidered. Less over-bearing, more sympathetic. Rinse out the gross pads, the invasive and torturous plastic lead sounds.

So much of Jacos precious playing is lost in this mess of fromage.
[/quote]
I asked a question on BC last month re: Zawinul's synth sound on the track Forlorn where it is at time totally off kilter. I've just read 'In A Silent Way: A Portrait Of Joe Zawinul' by Brian Glasser. All those synth sounds were just the way Zawinul was. He was always programming and reprogramming his synths.
I've never thought of them as cheesy though. I was really into jazz as those Weather Report LPs were being released in the 70s and 80s and they didn't seem (or were thought to be) cheesy at the time.

As for Herbie, Future Shock and Rock It (which i both liked at the time) sound a whole lot more cheesy now.

Edited February 8, 2013 by BetaFunk

[Doddy]

I think that Zawinul's synths were alright for the most part until around 'Mr Gone'-I think that album was a little
to synth heavy anyway. I don't know if I'd say it was cheesy though.I think it got better again around 'Domino Theory'.

The thing with using technology is that there will nearly always be a point where it sounds 'dated'.Be it synth sounds
or Simmons drums or whatever. To me though,I've never really found it a problem-it's just where things were at the
time,and many modern pieces of equipment still try to replicate these sounds.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1360283366' post='1968215']

Don't get me wrong. As a composer and player, I think the man was truly brilliant, but lets face it ... he had a penchant for the smelly stuff. Aye, a prolific purveyor of the stilton-esque, was Joseph. The times and technology cant be blamed for this. Herbie, for example, was sounding infinately classier in those days.

[/quote]

Not sure about that - although I like a lot of HH's 70s output, I can't suppress my cringe the moment he turned to the vocoder! Curiously, I don't find Jan Hammer's Minimoog with the Mahavisnu Orchestra cheesy, but perhaps that's because he went for a fairly simple lead sound and focussed on playing that one sound expressively.
I wonder if our reaction to sounds like these are age related? I was born in 1981, so grew up hearing the pop of the time. For years I had a strong aversion to any sound I considered to be overly 80s and it's only in the last couple of years that I've been able to go back and check out the music of that era without an involuntary shudder.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1360289461' post='1968258']
I think that Zawinul's synths were alright for the most part until around 'Mr Gone'-I think that album was a little
to synth heavy anyway. I don't know if I'd say it was cheesy though.I think it got better again around 'Domino Theory'.

The thing with using technology is that there will nearly always be a point where it sounds 'dated'.Be it synth sounds
or Simmons drums or whatever. To me though,I've never really found it a problem-it's just where things were at the
time,and many modern pieces of equipment still try to replicate these sounds.
[/quote]
I remember in a review of Mr Gone on it's release the reviewer asked whether Mr Gone was referring to Wayne Shorter as there was less of him and much more synths on it.
As you say it's more to do with the synths sounding 'dated' rather than cheesy. For anyone around when these albums were released they were anything but cheesy. These were cutting edge at the time.

[Son of the Wear]

I saw Weather Report at Newcastle City Hall many, many years ago (think I may have posted about this before). Ironically enough, what struck me at the time was the fantastic live keyboard sounds that Joe Zawinul used - sounded really 'organic' (for want of a better word) rather than electronic. Wayne Shorter and the drummer (I think it was Chester Thompson - but it was a long time ago) were great but I found Jaco the least impressive of the lot: can't argue that he is an amazing player but his solo bit was just tiresome and 'flashy for the sake of being flashy'.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1360289461' post='1968258']

The thing with using technology is that there will nearly always be a point where it sounds 'dated'.Be it synth sounds
or Simmons drums or whatever. To me though,I've never really found it a problem-it's just where things were at the
time,and many modern pieces of equipment still try to replicate these sounds.
[/quote]

I think Doddy has hit the nail on the head here . Zawinul was trying to make a statement to the jazz world by his adoption of what was at the time cutting edge music technology and his unapologetic use of modern sounds in Weather Report . He was trying to challenge the neo-conservatism of jazz musicians at the time , many of whom still dissapproved of the Fender Rhodes electric piano that had emerged in the 1960s and the electric bass guitar , let alone the even more radical departure of using synthesisers . Having Jaco feature so prominently within the sound of the band was a challenge to purists who thought that jazz should have a double bass to be authentic . Listening back to some of those records they do sound a bit dated , but as Doddy points out , what sounds most dated in the present is exactly what sounded most modern at the time .

[BassTractor]

Despite all the sensible points made by others, I'm firmly in the Stilton-esque camp, and have reacted negatively to Zawinul's synth sounds from the first time of hearing them back then, so for me it can not even [b]be[/b] a case of "dated".

Other sounds from the era sound good even today, imho.


best,
bert

Edited February 8, 2013 by BassTractor

[DaveFry]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs7LhL_I9kE&noredirect=1[/media]

Interviews with him in the early 80s ;
At 2:05 he says he grew up playing Austrian folk songs on accordion .
At 13:45 he says he liked the Wurlitzer when it came out in the 60s because it allowed him to play " more accordion-like ".
At 31:27 he demonstrates the sound he was after when he was very young . Guess what it sounds like !

[molan]

[quote name='Son of the Wear' timestamp='1360326658' post='1968627']
I saw Weather Report at Newcastle City Hall many, many years ago (think I may have posted about this before). Ironically enough, what struck me at the time was the fantastic live keyboard sounds that Joe Zawinul used - sounded really 'organic' (for want of a better word) rather than electronic. Wayne Shorter and the drummer (I think it was Chester Thompson - but it was a long time ago) were great but I found Jaco the least impressive of the lot: can't argue that he is an amazing player but his solo bit was just tiresome and 'flashy for the sake of being flashy'.
[/quote]

Have to agree - I saw them in London and Jaco grated on me all evening.

I'm sure this is heresy in bass playing circles but I found him really uninteresting live

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1360350626' post='1969229']
At 31:27 he demonstrates the sound he was after when he was very young . Guess what it sounds like !
[/quote]
He says a symphony orchestra, 20 violins and french horns. Am i missing something?

Edited February 8, 2013 by BetaFunk

[Green Alsatian]

Conversely, it was Zawinul's use of analogue synthesisers (his two Arp 2600s, 'Eins' and 'Zwei', Oberheim Eight-Voice and Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 to name but a few) that caught my ear and attracted me to Weather Report.

Of course one man's cheese is another's vital component of a sandwich and I found his use of synths more interesting (to me) than Jaco's playing.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Green Alsatian

[Dingus]

Could I just point out that Zawinuls Cheesy Synths would be a great name for an indie band .

[chardbass]

One thing I will say is that if you hear Zawinul you know it's him. He had/has a sonic identity.
There's another band name for you :-)

[shizznit]

Weather Report are not the only culprits. There is some early Herbie Hancock (who is a God to me) synth stuff which makes me cringe at times. A lot of other jazz/funk acts were experimenting with synths in the 70's...some of it cool...some of it tragic. It was a new technology back then and I guess those bands wanted to see how far they could take it.

[BetaFunk]

If you want cheesy synths..................

http://youtu.be/7rWJmvFIIoQ

[YouMa]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1360422132' post='1970119']
If you want cheesy synths..................

[media]http://youtu.be/7rWJmvFIIoQ[/media]
[/quote]

Yes this is unbelievable! That bloke just tops it.

[YouMa]

[YouMa]

Gorgonzola!!!

[YouMa]

[quote name='YouMa' timestamp='1360423082' post='1970134']

[/quote]Do you think he was mates with chicory tip.