Your Bass Lines - How Quickly Do They Come?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1360337245' post='1968931']
Depends what effect you are going for I suppose. In some styles of music that could work, but it seems to be making music a prison rather than a playground. Why make up rules where there need be none?
[/quote]
Exactly!

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360337023' post='1968925']
I remember a grown up musician on here (can't remember who) saying pretty much every note on the kick drum should be covered by a bass note. I honestly couldn't comprehend why anyone would believe that. Bizarre
[/quote]
Grown up musician? What is this, that of you speak?!

[icastle]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360337023' post='1968925']
I remember a grown up musician on here (can't remember who) saying pretty much every note on the kick drum should be covered by a bass note. I honestly couldn't comprehend why anyone would believe that. Bizarre
[/quote]

Well if he was grownup then it wasn't me.

I think that style of playing is all well and good as a starting off point but as people progress as players it becomes far more interesting to look at different rhythm patterns.

[Low End Bee]

If I can't bash something half decent out in 15 minutes it's time to move on to another song project.

[xilddx]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1360338428' post='1968975']
Well if he was grownup then it wasn't me.

I think that style of playing is all well and good as a starting off point but as people progress as players it becomes far more interesting to look at different rhythm patterns.
[/quote]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1360338190' post='1968969']
Grown up musician? What is this, that of you speak?!
[/quote]

Grown up as in an experienced gigging and recording musician.

I actually think a lot of people get given a song and think 'what am I going to do with the bass?' instead of 'what am I going to do with the music?'

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360338920' post='1968984']
Grown up as in an experienced gigging and recording musician.

I actually think a lot of people get given a song and think 'what am I going to do with the bass?' instead of 'what am I going to do with the music?'
[/quote]
Yeah, i can dig it! When i was 15 i probably thought like that. But i learned pretty quick. I'm lucky that all the muso's i've worked with recently apart from the last drummer, always think musically and not instrumentally.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1360339153' post='1968990']
Yeah, i can dig it! When i was 15 i probably thought like that. But i learned pretty quick. I'm lucky that all the muso's i've worked with recently apart from the last drummer, [b]always think musically and not instrumentally.[/b]
[/quote]
That really is the only way isn't it.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360339384' post='1968994']
That really is the only way isn't it.
[/quote]Aye!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360335150' post='1968873']
That's almost exactly how I approach bass lines with Kit. It works really well generally. Playing to the vocal is my thing, playing to the drums is most definitely not as important to me as designing lines that support the vocal. I like to let the drums have a lot of space, I like to hear them shine.
[/quote]
[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1360335927' post='1968895']
I agree. I honestly think the whole 'lock in with the drums' advice that beginners get is pretty bad advice and because so many bass players repeat it, they think it's forbidden to do anything else. I would say that regardless of what instrument you're playing, your first job to make the vocals sound as good as possible.
[/quote]

Because of the way my band writes, most of the arrangement has been worked out before we even get into the rehearsal room with our drummer. The drum parts are informed by what the vocals and the other instruments are doing not the other way around. It helps that Mr Venom is a decent drummer himself, so he'll often have a rough idea for what style of drumming he'd like to hear on a particular song. We'll work through each section of the song while our drummer listens to the rhythms we already have going and in particular how we push and pull into the various chord changes. He'll make suggestions if he thinks we're repeating ourselves rhythmically too often and he's usually right. By the time the song is complete, all the parts have fitted themselves together and every beat and note is perfectly in place.

[thisnameistaken]

TBH I've been in bands (very briefly!) with people who seemed to have very specific ideas of what the bass was for. In one case I didn't really understand why I was there - I think I was just there to make the drums and guitar sound a bit thicker? I didn't stay long. I had another guy, guitarist, who wanted me to play whatever he was playing with his thumb. Again, seems a bit pointless to me getting another instrument in just to do that.

Fortunately I've met many, many more musicians who really like hearing the bass pop up with its own contribution.

[Bassection]

As with everybody else, sometimes I can come up with something instantaneously, but other times it can take a little while depending on the song.

[alstocko]

I play a Fusion of Jazz/Funk/Hip-Hop, so most of my lines are based around improvisation so it sticks to ideas that I come up with in rehearsals and the composing process.

I am the main composer in our group, but we work as a democracy, so everyone has a say if we think that something isn't working.

I find that this is the most productive, inspirational and enjoyable atmosphere that I have ever been in

[Marvin]

I never play the same thing twice and just play what pops into my head at the time, it'll different the next time and the time after that. All depends on what the rest of the band are doing, although I tend to ignore the vocalist completely

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360337023' post='1968925']
I remember a grown up musician on here (can't remember who) saying pretty much every note on the kick drum should be covered by a bass note. I honestly couldn't comprehend why anyone would believe that. Bizarre
[/quote]
Yep, that will be me and I would strongly suggest that should be the general starting point for any music that is based on a backbeat. Of course, like all rules it can be disregarded at will but IMO that should be the fallback position. For me, the drums and bass should work together as a unit and provide a foundation for the vocals and chordal / lead instruments.

One of the nicest compliments I ever received wasn’t someone telling me how impressive my individual bass playing was. It came from a very talented guitarist & vocalist who is reasonably well known and who does sessions in London (Jake Newman has mentioned on here working with him) as well as his own stuff and a few bands (i.e. a very good musician who knows his stuff). He sat in for a couple of tunes on a blues gig I was playing. After the gig, we were chatting and exchanging pleasantries and I mentioned that it was the drummer’s first gig with the band. He seemed genuinely surprised, so I told him that we had played together in a couple of other bands for ten years. His response was that he could tell and that we worked together well and were a really good rhythm section.

That meant a lot more to me as a bass player than someone being impressed by the odd bits of nonsense you sometimes throw in!!

Edited February 8, 2013 by peteb

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360350819' post='1969233']
Yep, that will be me and I would strongly suggest that should be the general starting point for any music that is based on a backbeat. Of course, like all rules it can be disregarded at will but IMO that should be the fallback position. For me, the drums and bass should work together as a unit and provide a foundation for the vocals and chordal / lead instruments.

One of the nicest compliments I ever received wasn’t someone telling me how impressive my individual bass playing was. It came from a very talented guitarist & vocalist who is reasonably well known and who does sessions in London (Jake Newman has mentioned on here working with him) as well as his own stuff and a few bands (i.e. a very good musician who knows his stuff). He sat in for a couple of tunes on a blues gig I was playing. After the gig, we were chatting and exchanging pleasantries and I mentioned that it was the drummer’s first gig with the band. He seemed genuinely surprised, so I told him that we had played together in a couple of other bands for ten years. His response was that he could tell and that we worked together well and were a really good rhythm section.

That meant a lot more to me as a bass player than someone being impressed by the odd bits of nonsense you sometimes throw in!!
[/quote]I wouldn't say any form of music! When you're playing ballads in musicals you're lucky if you get to play any notes after beat 1 in a bar!

Edited February 8, 2013 by Lord Sausage

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360350819' post='1969233']
Yep, that will be me and I would strongly suggest that should be the general starting point for any music that is based on a backbeat. Of course, like all rules it can be disregarded at will but IMO that should be the fallback position. For me, the drums and bass should work together as a unit and provide a foundation for the vocals and chordal / lead instruments.

One of the nicest compliments I ever received wasn’t someone telling me how impressive my individual bass playing was. It came from a very talented guitarist & vocalist who is reasonably well known and who does sessions in London (Jake Newman has mentioned on here working with him) as well as his own stuff and a few bands (i.e. a very good musician who knows his stuff). He sat in for a couple of tunes on a blues gig I was playing. After the gig, we were chatting and exchanging pleasantries and I mentioned that it was the drummer’s first gig with the band. He seemed genuinely surprised, so I told him that we had played together in a couple of other bands for ten years. His response was that he could tell and that we worked together well and were a really good rhythm section.

That meant a lot more to me as a bass player than someone being impressed by the odd bits of nonsense you sometimes throw in!!
[/quote]

I'm delighted for you Pete. However, there is more to music than blues and backbeats. You can orchestrate bass in millions of ways, as the song requires, even ones with backbeats. I love writing lines with loads of space, or sustained notes I can play with using effects and volume swells and bends and stuff. I see bass as architectural. If the drummer's kicking a good backbeat, you can syncopate and make space glow. You can create new rhythms with interplay with the drummer, or accentuate part of the beat with accents. Good taste and understanding the emotional intent of the words and voice, and feeling the song is the key to getting this right I think.

I have to play good ol pumping electro dance bass lines with one band, lines written by someone else. They are fairly straight but I f*** about with them onstage, I leave spaces and play off beat or in triplets, throw in little bits of bass architecture, all what I feel would make me go 'f***in hell!' and want to dance. The drums keep the beat well enough and me and the drummer bugger about a bit together and follow each other outside the straight recorded versions. None of it is intended as nonsense, it creates energy and the crowd feed off that I believe. We certainly go down very well and people dance.

This is a decent example of a line that's nowhere near the backbeat with the band I mentioned above [url="https://soundcloud.com/silddx/london-zulu-may-2012-umlhalho"]https://soundcloud.c...y-2012-umlhalho[/url]

Edited February 8, 2013 by xilddx

[Cat Burrito]

I appear to be the most popular answer to every category at present - I have most control over what I play, enjoy the creative process of writing bass parts which comes fairly easily, write for maybe 8 - 12 songs a year and find it easy writing for simple songs.

The only point I'd add is that whilst I write a part quickly I do occasionally tweak little bits sometimes even years after the initial writing of the song. For me all of this is the most enjoyable aspect about being a creative person

[lee4]

I like to write the initial line,but am quite happy to let any other member of the band suggest alternatives,
After all,a band is a team, and we all work to make the song sound the best it can be.
I like to use the formula Doc Pomeroy wrote in a bass mag years ago(it was an article about playing Country sessions);think of the simplest thing you can play,then reduce it by half!

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360353385' post='1969294']
I'm delighted for you Pete. However, there is more to music than blues and backbeats. You can orchestrate bass in millions of ways, as the song requires, even ones with backbeats. I love writing lines with loads of space, or sustained notes I can play with using effects and volume swells and bends and stuff. I see bass as architectural. If the drummer's kicking a good backbeat, you can syncopate and make space glow. You can create new rhythms with interplay with the drummer, or accentuate part of the beat with accents. Good taste and understanding the emotional intent of the words and voice, and feeling the song is the key to getting this right I think.

I have to play good ol pumping electro dance bass lines with one band, lines written by someone else. They are fairly straight but I f*** about with them onstage, I leave spaces and play off beat or in triplets, throw in little bits of bass architecture, all what I feel would make me go 'f***in hell!' and want to dance. The drums keep the beat well enough and me and the drummer bugger about a bit together and follow each other outside the straight recorded versions. None of it is intended as nonsense, it creates energy and the crowd feed off that I believe. We certainly go down very well and people dance.

This is a decent example of a line that's nowhere near the backbeat with the band I mentioned above [url="https://soundcloud.com/silddx/london-zulu-may-2012-umlhalho"]https://soundcloud.c...y-2012-umlhalho[/url]
[/quote]
A number of points here:[list=1]
[*]First of all, I don’t just play blues by any means – that’s quite a recent thing! In my time I have played many types of music (still do). Admittedly, we are generally talking about rock of one sort or another and usually based on backbeats (or shuffles, of course, for some of the blues stuff). A backbeat / shuffle tend to be the basis of most types of music that most people here listen to (but of course not all), be it rock, funk, blues or soul, etc.
[*]Of course if you are not playing a backbeat a lot of what I am saying does not apply! I totally agree that you can do all things that you mention, even when playing a backbeat. You seem to be taking me very literally, not helped by that in the previous debate on this matter I seemed to be forced into a rather absolute position by people who didn’t seem to want to understand what I was trying to say! Of course you don’t have to play a note [b]every[/b] time the drummer kicks the bass drum and you can play melodically when the opportunity arises. However, I would suggest that your fallback position should be to lock into the bass drum pattern unless you have a reason not to, when playing anything with a backbeat.
[*]The ‘nonsense’ that I refer to is the bag of tricks that we all have, which we reach into every now & again to hopefully provide a ‘wow’ moment to impress people (fast runs, slapping, whatever). That is all fine, but shouldn’t detract from creating a solid rhythm section.
[*]I’m confused by the (pretty cool) clip that you linked to. Granted, it is not exactly a typical AC/DC type backbeat, but you appear to be locking in with the bass drum with a touch of syncopation in the middle section in what is basically a groove based around a backbeat. Sounds really solid and works really well for the track, but I can’t see how it is an ‘example of a line that's nowhere near the backbeat’ (assuming that I have got the correct link)??
[/list]

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360356581' post='1969405']
A number of points here:[list=1]
[*]First of all, I don’t just play blues by any means – that’s quite a recent thing! In my time I have played many types of music (still do). Admittedly, we are generally talking about rock of one sort or another and usually based on backbeats (or shuffles, of course, for some of the blues stuff). A backbeat / shuffle tend to be the basis of most types of music that most people here listen to (but of course not all), be it rock, funk, blues or soul, etc.
[*]Of course if you are not playing a backbeat a lot of what I am saying does not apply! I totally agree that you can do all things that you mention, even when playing a backbeat. You seem to be taking me very literally, not helped by that in the previous debate on this matter I seemed to be forced into a rather absolute position by people who didn’t seem to want to understand what I was trying to say! Of course you don’t have to play a note [b]every[/b] time the drummer kicks the bass drum and you can play melodically when the opportunity arises. However, I would suggest that your fallback position should be to lock into the bass drum pattern unless you have a reason not to, when playing anything with a backbeat.
[*]The ‘nonsense’ that I refer to is the bag of tricks that we all have, which we reach into every now & again to hopefully provide a ‘wow’ moment to impress people (fast runs, slapping, whatever). That is all fine, but shouldn’t detract from creating a solid rhythm section.
[*]I’m confused by the (pretty cool) clip that you linked to. Granted, it is not exactly a typical AC/DC type backbeat, but you appear to be locking in with the bass drum with a touch of syncopation in the middle section in what is basically a groove based around a backbeat. Sounds really solid and works really well for the track, but I can’t see how it is an ‘example of a line that's nowhere near the backbeat’ (assuming that I have got the correct link)??
[/list]
[/quote]

Nice post, thanks. I think you have painted yourself into the 'literal' camp, maybe you didn't explain it in a way we would understand. But that's clear now.

The bass line in the clip, most of the main part of the line falls on the 'and's, between the kick and snare hits, no?

[icastle]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360338920' post='1968984']
Grown up as in an experienced gigging and recording musician.
[/quote]

I knew what you meant.

I was just being childish.

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360357327' post='1969423']
Nice post, thanks. I think you have painted yourself into the 'literal' camp, maybe you didn't explain it in a way we would understand. But that's clear now.

The bass line in the clip, most of the main part of the line falls on the 'and's, between the kick and snare hits, no?
[/quote]
I think that I probably did, but in my defence I was rather pushed into it...!

From a first listening of the clip you seem to be playing with the bass drum - of course what you play in between the kick drum is another thing (as long as it works)!

Will have to give it another listen....

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360357784' post='1969442']
I think that I probably did, but in my defence I was rather pushed into it...!

From a first listening of the clip you seem to be playing with the bass drum - of course what you play in between the kick drum is another thing (as long as it works)!

Will have to give it another listen....
[/quote]
Kick' on the 1 2 3 4 snare on 2 4 bass on the 8th note accents.

[ead]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360284418' post='1968232']
When you are given a new song to write a line for, how quickly do they usually come to you. How do you go about the process of writing your lines? Do your lines get changed?
[/quote]

Interesting poll. Our band works on a pretty collaborative basis so somebody will bring along an idea be it a riff a chorus a couple of lines of lyrics and then we try and work out how to turn it into a tune we like. We often have one of those in you pocket type recording things to capture ideas. The song will evolve over 3 or 4 practices by which time it will either be a keeper or one that goes to the bottom of the pile for more thought.

Could have used a few more options on the 'sort' of music as I think ours is neither simple nor complex - depending of course on how you define simple and complex.