Which Ceramic 12" driver?

[6v6]

Hi all,

I'm considering starting a DIY cab project, making either two 1x12 or one 2x12 cabs - inspired by the bergantino HD line which sound great from what I've read, but I can't afford, hence considering dusting off the power-tools and attempting to build something along similar lines.

So my question is what driver to get - obviously this is the key decision as the box/ports will be designed around the driver.

I'm planning to use ceramic drivers due to cost, and I'm keen on Eminence due to their reputation as a supplier to many/most of the big cab makers, and the fact that they provide example design datasheets (minimising the margin for error with box design)

However, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the choice - looking at the beta, delta, delta-pro, kappa, kappa pro?!

I'm after a punchy, more vintage (nice low-mid push and not necessarily that flat and "hi fi") sound - can anyone offer any suggestions?

Not got a head yet (currently using a 1x12 Hartke combo) but will probably be a Markbass LM/LMT/TTE500 or maybe an Ampeg PF500

I guess what I'm really asking is, anyone know what eminence retail driver is closest to the ceramic drivers used in the berg HD line?

Thanks!

[JTUK]

hmmm I have a brand new 12" driver from Aguilar which goes in their GS and DB cabs.
The GS cab is tuned is deep and full ( scooped) and the DB more round with a better mid presense, IMO.

You could use them as a template for your cab.

I would suspect that Berg use the same sort of driver but disguised from the off the shelf range.. as most manufacturers tend to do.
I guess it is reasonabale to stop people copying so easy all the 'RnD' work....

[bertbass]

I'd have a look at Fanes.

[6v6]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1360324113' post='1968549']
I'd have a look at Fanes.
[/quote]

Thanks - hadn't even considered Fane - the SOVEREIGN 12-500LF looks good from a specs point of view, and seems comparable to the (more expensive most places) Eminence Kappa pro

Anyone got any first hand experience with these drivers for bass guitar in small-ish ported enclosures?

[Mr. Foxen]

If you start specifying ceramic, you are already asking the wrong question. If cheap is the aim, ask for that. If you know enough to understand the specs, then you know how suited something is for a small enclosure. Needing to ask means you probably don't understand the spec, so don't use them as a point of comparison.

[6v6]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360333555' post='1968831']
If you start specifying ceramic, you are already asking the wrong question. If cheap is the aim, ask for that.
[/quote]
Sorry, I don't understand this comment - ceramic speakers are much much cheaper than their neo equivalents, for example an Eminence kappa pro is around half the price of the neo equivalent kappalite models.

The ceramic comment means I'm deciding that I'll sacrifice light weight in an effort to get something which still sounds good and will cost me less than the same cab built with one of the popular neo drivers like the 3012ho or 3012lf.

I've got no preference of magnet material, I'm just keen to try this DIY experiment without speculating £400 on two drivers, effectively ruling out neo models.

If I go ceramic I'm estimating I can probably get two pretty good drivers with 3" voice coils and big beefy magnets for ~ £150.

Is my thinking totally wrong?!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360333555' post='1968831']
If you know enough to understand the specs, then you know how suited something is for a small enclosure. Needing to ask means you probably don't understand the spec, so don't use them as a point of comparison.
[/quote]

Well I was just comparing the Fane driver with one of the Eminence models I'd been looking at - same power handling, same voice coil diameter, same/similar magnet size. If you mean specs as in thiele small parameters, I never claimed anything was suitable for anything, nor did I compare specific parameters (although I noticed the vas was similar so they should both work in a similar sized box right?)

I'm not claiming any great knowledge of cab design, but for reference, I have built several bass reflex cabinets in the past (quite a few years ago to be fair), done t/s calculations for volume and port tuning, and those cabs sounded pretty good, so if I get a good, bass-guitar-appropriate driver I'm hoping this won't be a total disaster!

Anyway ... back to my original question, can anyone provide any first-hand experience of off-the-shelf, relatively inexpensive (less than £100 each) drivers which will work well in a stacked pair of fairly compact 1x12 cabs, or maybe a vertical 2x12 configuration.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1360339411' post='1968996']
Sorry, I don't understand this comment - ceramic speakers are much much cheaper than their neo equivalents, for example an Eminence kappa pro is around half the price of the neo equivalent kappalite models.

The ceramic comment means I'm deciding that I'll sacrifice light weight in an effort to get something which still sounds good and will cost me less than the same cab built with one of the popular neo drivers like the 3012ho or 3012lf.

I've got no preference of magnet material, I'm just keen to try this DIY experiment without speculating £400 on two drivers, effectively ruling out neo models.

If I go ceramic I'm estimating I can probably get two pretty good drivers with 3" voice coils and big beefy magnets for ~ £150.

Is my thinking totally wrong?!



Well I was just comparing the Fane driver with one of the Eminence models I'd been looking at - same power handling, same voice coil diameter, same/similar magnet size. If you mean specs as in thiele small parameters, I never claimed anything was suitable for anything, nor did I compare specific parameters (although I noticed the vas was similar so they should both work in a similar sized box right?)

I'm not claiming any great knowledge of cab design, but for reference, I have built several bass reflex cabinets in the past (quite a few years ago to be fair), done t/s calculations for volume and port tuning, and those cabs sounded pretty good, so if I get a good, bass-guitar-appropriate driver I'm hoping this won't be a total disaster!

Anyway ... back to my original question, can anyone provide any first-hand experience of off-the-shelf, relatively inexpensive (less than £100 each) drivers which will work well in a stacked pair of fairly compact 1x12 cabs, or maybe a vertical 2x12 configuration.
[/quote]

Voice coil and magnet size in themselves are meaningless, neos basically demonstrate that. Kappalites and Kappas aren't equivalent, the Kappalites, you'd need two or three Kappas/additional midrange drivers to be equivalent to the capabilities of a Kappalite in terms of SPL sensitivity and sound. The suggestion of two boxes means you can probably equal the capabilities of the two witha single neo loaded cab, but it all depends:

you need to start with what you want to achieve in terms of sound, if it doesn't need much spl, then you can get away with not much power handling, if it doesn't need any highs/uppermids, then you can get away with an LF driver. All that is established is weight isn't much issue, and cost is, neo capabilities can be better across the board, not just in terms of weight.

[6v6]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360340101' post='1969004']
Voice coil and magnet size in themselves are meaningless, neos basically demonstrate that. Kappalites and Kappas aren't equivalent, the Kappalites, you'd need two or three Kappas/additional midrange drivers to be equivalent to the capabilities of a Kappalite in terms of SPL sensitivity and sound. The suggestion of two boxes means you can probably equal the capabilities of the two witha single neo loaded cab, but it all depends:

you need to start with what you want to achieve in terms of sound, if it doesn't need much spl, then you can get away with not much power handling, if it doesn't need any highs/uppermids, then you can get away with an LF driver. All that is established is weight isn't much issue, and cost is, neo capabilities can be better across the board, not just in terms of weight.
[/quote]

I just realized we had a similar discussion several months ago (I was considering building a cab for my Traynor YBA1-A, but in the end I bought a cheap 1x12 combo as a stopgap due to lack of time), IIRC the conclusion was a single 3015 (non LF)

I'm now looking at getting some bigger gigs where the combo (or the Traynor) won't be enough volume wise, so am looking at getting a ~500w used SS head and building a cab (partly cos I like DIYing stuff and partly cos it should be cheaper)

So here's what I want to achieve:
- Power handing of >= 500w
- Must be able to fill medium sized pub/club venues
- Must be relatively compact due to storage/stage-size limitations
- If using two drivers, I'm leaning towards using two separate cabs which can be stacked, so I can just use one for small venues/practice
- Ideally it would also work well with tube heads, as I'd still like to use the Traynor (and possibly build/buy another 100w+ tube amp)
- Vintage voiced, I don't care about slap, tweeters, hi-fi or anything other than fingerstyle rock/blues/country/alternative, it's got to be organic, punchy, thick low-mids (Ampeg-ish I guess?)
- I'm specifying 12's because I've generally liked the 12" cabs I've tried, I see them as a compromise between 10s and 15s, and a single one in a cab should result in a fairly portable box.

[Mr. Foxen]

Don't think there are any single speakers that handle near to 500w, but Kappalite LFs get fairly close, the ones that will need a midrange to sound normal unless you want reggae/dub tones.

Tube heads need sensitivity, because of the low power, that's the only real consideration.

Vintage voiced means not much, but the classic ampeg sound is the sound of guitar speakers with barely any power handling and breaking up, no bottom end, midbass hump.

Speaker diameters determine the size your baffle needs to be to fit them in, and that's about it for this purpose.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

What Mr. Foxen has hinted at but not said outright is that you need to either learn how to use speaker modeling software to find the driver with T/S specs that will give the desired result, along with the cabinet volume and tuning, or you have to find someone who does have that skill to design it for you. Inches and watts are only a very small part of the overall picture.
[quote]I noticed the vas was similar so they should both work in a similar sized box right?[/quote]No. Drivers may work well in a similar sized box if all the specs are similar, [i]or if they're totally different. [/i]The only way to know is with modeling.

[discreet]

What Bill is hinting at but not said outright is that you should buy some of his excellent plans and build yourself a spiffy BFM cab!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1360346593' post='1969131']
What Bill is hinting at but not said outright is that you should buy some of his excellent plans and build yourself a spiffy BFM cab!
[/quote]Not if sounding like a Berg is the intent.

[Mr. Foxen]

BFM cabs sound pretty far from trad. The XF guitar cabs would do prob OK for bass if you want really oldschool bass through a guitar cab with not much power sound.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1360347644' post='1969154']
Not if sounding like a Berg is the intent.
[/quote]

Shh, don't put him off...

[Marvin]

The big benefit of Bill's Jack designs are that if you're budget conscious then he has designed the cabs to take a slightly cheaper driver as well.

[6v6]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360344372' post='1969097']
Don't think there are any single speakers that handle near to 500w, but Kappalite LFs get fairly close, the ones that will need a midrange to sound normal unless you want reggae/dub tones.
[/quote]

Well there were two mentioned earlier in the thread, the eminence kappa pro 12A and the Fane 500-12LF.

Anyway, obviously I meant combined power handing, since I said I was planning to get a 500w amp, so assuming 2x12's each 8ohm, then 300w each specification should be sufficient to ensure they don't blow up the first time I turn up a bit too far.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360344372' post='1969097']
Tube heads need sensitivity, because of the low power, that's the only real consideration.

Vintage voiced means not much, but the classic ampeg sound is the sound of guitar speakers with barely any power handling and breaking up, no bottom end, midbass hump.

Speaker diameters determine the size your baffle needs to be to fit them in, and that's about it for this purpose.
[/quote]

Well I appreciate it does indeed decide the size of the baffle (thanks for pointing that out btw!), but my ears tell me different size speakers sound different.

[6v6]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1360346322' post='1969125']
What Mr. Foxen has hinted at but not said outright is that you need to either learn how to use speaker modeling software to find the driver with T/S specs that will give the desired result, along with the cabinet volume and tuning, or you have to find someone who does have that skill to design it for you. Inches and watts are only a very small part of the overall picture.
No. Drivers may work well in a similar sized box if all the specs are similar, [i]or if they're totally different. [/i]The only way to know is with modeling.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'd expected to have to learn winisd or something, but what I was hoping was someone could say "this is a good driver to build a box around" then I could design the box around a driver which was known to sound good in ported bass-guitar applications.

Sounds like I have a lot more research and learning to do, thanks for your response

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1360362693' post='1969532']
Well there were two mentioned earlier in the thread, the eminence kappa pro 12A and the Fane 500-12LF.
[/quote]

Dead link on the Fane site for the spec on that one. The Eminence will be quiet and dark though, pretty far from classic SVT but maybe similar to the 'bad era' ones where they used unsuitable speakers that were really dark. But they are both 12s, so if that makes them sound the same to you, knock yourself out.

Good driver to built a box around: Kappalite 3012HO.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[Phil Starr]

I feel for you a bit, not that the expert advice is wrong but it isn't very helpful. There's nothing wrong with the up-front recognition that a ceramic magnet is going to be cheaper than a neo for example.

First of all there is nothing wrong with 12's but what people are saying is that the sound isn't defined by diameter, 12's, 10's and 15's overlap in sound however you have to start somewhere, so lets assume you will build a 12 and that you aim to learn about speakers by doing this project. we all start somewhere.

First of all can I ask a question? Are you doing this because you think you'll get your dream speaker, because it will save money or because you want to learn? You won't get your dream speaker because you won't really know what yours will sound like until you try it out, by then it is too late to change. You might not save money either, you can't source the speakers as cheaply as the main manufacturers or the other parts, the best way of saving money is to buy used, then you can try what you are getting and sell it on if you change your mind. You will however learn loads and end up with a giggable speaker if you listen to some of the advice. I'd advise building a 1x12, if you like it you can build a second, if not you've only paid out for one speaker

If you still want to go ahead let us know and we can start looking for what you want.

[6v6]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360363246' post='1969542']
Good driver to built a box around: Kappalite 3012HO.
[/quote]

Gah!

My request was for relatively affordable (ie ceramic magnet) good drivers - I made it very clear, I even put it in the subject.

I already know the kappalites are good drivers, and I know that for some reason in the DIY cabinet community there's an absolute unwillingness to recommend anything else, but I've already said, several times I don't want to spend £200 per driver on something which is basically just an experiment.

Thanks for your input, but seriously, how can the answer to the "please recommend a relatively affordable ceramic driver" question be "buy the absolute most expensive neo driver available"?

[Mr. Foxen]

Thought you wanted two? That driver does as much as two of any of the others. including sensitivity. So it immediately halves the work on box making, as long as sound is what you are after rather than having more boxes. Doesn't really matter what driver so much if your goal is more boxes. Its pretty far from the most expensive driver too.

[6v6]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1360365870' post='1969592']
I feel for you a bit, not that the expert advice is wrong but it isn't very helpful. There's nothing wrong with the up-front recognition that a ceramic magnet is going to be cheaper than a neo for example.
[/quote]

Agreed! Not sure why the ceramic assertion got such a strong "must use neo" response, but there you go

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1360365870' post='1969592']
First of all there is nothing wrong with 12's but what people are saying is that the sound isn't defined by diameter, 12's, 10's and 15's overlap in sound however you have to start somewhere, so lets assume you will build a 12 and that you aim to learn about speakers by doing this project. we all start somewhere.
[/quote]

Sure, I appreciate that - I've been building tube guitar amps for many years (including open back cabinets) so I know there are no absolutes, I was just trying to narrow down the choice to a specific size, which I see as appropriate to my requirements, and which I've heard in other cabinets and liked.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1360365870' post='1969592']
First of all can I ask a question? Are you doing this because you think you'll get your dream speaker, because it will save money or because you want to learn? You won't get your dream speaker because you won't really know what yours will sound like until you try it out, by then it is too late to change. You might not save money either, you can't source the speakers as cheaply as the main manufacturers or the other parts, the best way of saving money is to buy used, then you can try what you are getting and sell it on if you change your mind. You will however learn loads and end up with a giggable speaker if you listen to some of the advice. I'd advise building a 1x12, if you like it you can build a second, if not you've only paid out for one speaker

If you still want to go ahead let us know and we can start looking for what you want.
[/quote]

Bingo! Somebody gets it! Of course, I want to build something so I can learn, because I enjoy DIY projects, and because I want to end up with a giggable, good sounding speaker without spending huge amounts of money.

I know I could buy used, but I've got this itch to build a DIY cab, and I enjoy the process of figuring out what works and why.

As I stated at the outset I was thinking of 2 1x12 stacked, and as you say I was absolutely hoping that by getting a fairly affordable driver I could build one first, then build another if it's any good, if not I've not wasted a huge amount and will still have had a good learning experience.

Based on my guitar amp builds over the years (about 10 from scratch), I fully expect to build maybe 5 or 6 iterations before I even approach my "dream cab", but at least when I get there I'll understand why it works

[Mikey R]

Hi 6v6, Im in a similar boat but approaching it from the other end - got the speaker cab and building the head to match. One thing Ive learnt by reading into this stuff - reproducing bass is way trickier than guitar. A guitar may sound alright through a bass amp but a bass sounds pants through a guitar amp.

That extra octave is really hard work and requires the engineering to be so much more precise. Enjoy yourself!

[tubbybloke68]

+1

[Phil Starr]

Just off to bed but OK then. I'm not sure what sort of sound a Berg makes so if you find me a link to a good recording or you or someone else can describe it I'll be able to get close. If you can find a frequency plot that will be perfect.

In the meantime there's a 12" speaker that is a real gem for bass that I actually use when I'm not DI'ing, the Beyma SM212.
http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMASM212&browsemode=manufacturer
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/SM-212E.pdf

Why would I go for this? well Xmax is conservatively 7mm, tht's how far the cone will travel without distorting. This means that you won't lose output because the coil has left the magnet gap at high power.

2. there's good output up to 5,000Hz so there's plenty of top end there without a tweeter. This is done without a huge peak in output at 1-2kHz that a lot of the Eminence designs display. (not necessarily bad but it does colour the sound.)

3. Fs is lowish so you'll cover fundamental bass down to 40Hz

4. Qts is 0.38 which makes it relatively easy to tailor the bass to give a flat response.

5. It is nicely made with a cast chassis, sensitivity is OK too

The only problem is that for a 12 it does need a fair size box ideally. The sound with bass is pretty open and clean sounding, you hear the strings coming through nicely. Bass is clean and deep without being boomy, just well controlled. Because of the excellent top end response you hear lots of detail too but without the Eminence cone break up the speaker doesn't add too much character of its own. I'll talk you through the Eminence and Fane ranges and try and predict strengths and weaknesses for you tomorrow. I've used both quite a lot but nothing matches the Beyma at this price point at the moment IMO