ubassman Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I have for a while been 'depping' for a friend who is off with a bad back and last week I met an old friend who has given up playing the Double bass because of RSI ! Just thought I would start a thread about how fellow DB and EUB players support their instruments and their chosen posture?There is a lot of weight in a double bass and it seems that many back maladies and problems are caused by the body being under stress from resisting weight . Some bassists always stand - period. Others ( myself included ) prefer to sit especially on a long 3 hour orchestra job. My preferred posture is that I have my right foot on the floor with the bass clamped between my legs self supported and my hands are free to move without having to keep the bass in place . So far I have managed to escape back aches and pains but I seem to be a bit of a last man standing in my local community ! What do others do ..and what sort of Double bass playing 'injuries' are commonplace ? I don't want to join my two companions in the chiropractors waiting room ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Posture is critical, get it right and all your other functions should operate without hinderance, get it wrong and you can strain yourself out of the ability to play at all. Basic principal as far as I'm concerned is, sitting or standing, your arms should be able to move freely and not have any responsibility for the positioning or holding of the instrument. It's the beginning of the first lesson with every student for me. It's amazing how many people hold the bass with their left hand, which seriously hinders facility. You should be able to sit/stand with your hands above your head and the bass stay in place as though you were playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) WRT what Jake said, I don't feel like anything is under stress when playing pizz but if I get the bow out the bass gets a bit wobbly so I know I am supporting it to some degree with my right thumb. I think I may have to get a teacher to give me some guidance on that. Jake: When standing how do you keep the bass still without touching it with your arms? I've found it only makes contact with me in one place - at my hip. Surely you need two points of contact at least to make it stable, no? What's the other one? But for me the double bass seems to be a much more practical instrument to play than a 34" scale bass guitar. I got seriously sick wrists a couple of years ago from bass guitar and pretty much completely stopped playing it for the best part of a year to recover, but during that time I played double bass without any problems. Since then I haven't had a regular gig on the bass guitar and I would fully expect my wrist problems to recur if I did. Edited February 8, 2013 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Kev it's really hard to describe in words, but basically you can have the back of the lower right bout against your left knee which prevents the bass from pivoting out of position, if you place the bass slightly forward then the natural tendency is for it to pivot forward on it's left axis which you prevent with your knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 OK that description makes sense. I'll have to give it a try. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1360350948' post='1969236'] Kev it's really hard to describe in words, but basically you can have the back of the lower right bout against your left knee which prevents the bass from pivoting out of position, if you place the bass slightly forward then the natural tendency is for it to pivot forward on it's left axis which you prevent with your knee. [/quote] Ooh thanks. I'll give it a try too. There's also the conundrum of bass height. I know I have good posture for pizz with the bass low (approx. nut at eyebrow level), as I can play without bending my back, with a straight wrist and without having the arm too high. But with the bass at this height, arco demands I bend my back, which can't be good. Also, because of the bending, the nut is much closer to my left ear and forces a more bent wrist. Not good either. If i use a longer end pin, the shoulder aches from holding the arm too high. I'm wondering whether a good compromise is just not possible. It's not as if i have especially short arms and I'm 5ft10, so i doubt it's build as such. I have a feeling arco is going to cause me grief if I don't solve this. Useful thread, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1360350948' post='1969236'] Kev it's really hard to describe in words, but basically you can have the back of the lower right bout against your left knee which prevents the bass from pivoting out of position, if you place the bass slightly forward then the natural tendency is for it to pivot forward on it's left axis which you prevent with your knee. [/quote] This is quite a good video on the subject [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gn6xlVSax4[/media] Steve Edited February 8, 2013 by oggiesnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 His bass looks very high and very vertical. I'm not sure I'd want the nut all the way up there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowlandtrees Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I am a beginner to DB but have got myself a Kania Da Gamba contrabass for want of space and ease of transport. It does not have the body of a DB so I do find the posture thing difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 [quote name='lowlandtrees' timestamp='1360404856' post='1969794'] I am a beginner to DB but have got myself a Kania Da Gamba contrabass for want of space and ease of transport. It does not have the body of a DB so I do find the posture thing difficult. [/quote] Its pretty vital to get to a place where any instrument that we play is supported but without any weight being carried via the playing hand (s) ( piano, drums, guitar, trumpet, violin, sax, ...you name it !) As soon as a one starts to support an instrument in the hands mobility is lost and you are 'weight bearing' with the muscles before you have even started using them for playing i.e. the muscles are already hard at work before even pressing on the strings! My preference for DB playing is thats I sit down to play ...its pretty easy to lightly grip the double bass sort of cello style, between the knees and thigh and support it so that I can wave and shout 'look no hands' if I wanted . I do play standing too and you can get good support of the bass turning it a bit into the hip ( as many swear by and prefer ) ...but sitting, I can play all day every day without the slightest issue and it has worked for me! Perhaps an analogy for us DB players to consider would be to compare a piano player sitting at a freestanding piano and then imagine the problems they would have to play for any length of time and in comfort, gripping a hammer in each hand with the thumb whilst playing with just the fingers. Easy to imagine tension in the shoulders from the weight of the hammers , forearms aching, wrist strained, (...sounds very similar to the complaints us DB player suffer from !). Be really interesting to see the views of the standing players and how they support their instrument to ensure that 'look no hands' playability ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1360359083' post='1969477'] This is quite a good video on the subject [/quote] +1 on that and at 2.30 theres that 'look no hands' moment ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I found Rufus Reid's "the evolving bassist" helpful back when I wanted to find a good position whilst not having a teacher. Ultimately I can't help feeling that the ideal position is the one which suits your body. If you, like Peter, can play all day in a position that doesn't hurt your back, shoulders or neck, then that's your position. I never took to sitting because I don't have a stool to practice with at home and also because I tend to arch my back when sitting, which is not good. From a strictly scientific viewpoint however, sitting puts a lot more pressure on our backs than standing, so the logical answer would be to learn to stand with the bass without straining or stooping and only sit for short spells in a good sitting posture. Of course I am no specialist on the matter but the bit about the increased pressure on your spine when sitting is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Also, sitting would get me fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 [quote name='fatback' timestamp='1360419924' post='1970076'] Also, sitting would get me fired. [/quote] Are you in a Rock-a-billy band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 [quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1360413570' post='1969958'] From a strictly scientific viewpoint however, sitting puts a lot more pressure on our backs than standing, so the logical answer would be to learn to stand with the bass without straining or stooping and only sit for short spells in a good sitting posture. [/quote] ...I can sit all day long but boy do I feel tired standing all day ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) [quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1360433465' post='1970420'] ...I can sit all day long but boy do I feel tired standing all day ! [/quote] That's fair enough sir. Still, according to evidence, your spine appears to prefer you either lying or standing, not sitting. Maybe we should learn to play lying down...now, I could do that all day! Edited February 9, 2013 by Rabbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah thomas Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Here's Michael Camino playing his bass while lying down - <iframe src="http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10152518625570321" width="1280" height="720" frameborder="0"></iframe> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtroun Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I'm following this with interest because I've had my battles in the past with back and shoulder pain, had a good few months without much at all but now it's all back with a vengeance. I think the height of the bass has a big part to play, I've just put my bass up a bit and I think that's part of the key for me, my old bass had an awful endpin that couldn't go particularly high, I've found I need it really quite high even though I'm not particularly tall. I've got a friend who's very tall who has his bass much lower than me (he looks very hunched when he plays, not sure quite how that works for him) I've tried sitting but it didn't work for me. I think your general health also has a big part to play; I'm under a lot of stress at the moment (student teacher) and I've not been eating particularly healthy food lately. Switching from German to French bow helped me quite a lot as well, I think I've got short arms. I think how much you play has an effect as well, I find myself most relaxed on the bass and getting the best sound if I'm playing several hours a day (sadly not getting that at the moment!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Another take on the same subject (there's some good stuff in his other videos as well) [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Cc-aaz50o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Cc-aaz50o[/url] Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 That's pretty much what I do. I tried Jake's advice about getting my left leg involved in supporting the bass behind the lower right bout but I've found I tend to tap that foot a lot, which wobbles the bass. Whoops! Bit more discipline needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Thanks for posting John Clayton's tip ! +1 on that - pretty much how I stand ...if I have to play stood up . The subtlety of the video is that in order to reach the thumb position he move the bass and angles it more ...rather than the body bending over , but as he comes out of the thumb position the bass goes back to being more upright . In terms of reach the choice is either the bass moves, or the body bends ( as John used to do it) . I find that even at that I can sometimes feel stress building in my lower back . Perhaps its with the weight of the bass leaning on the hip joint for pronged periods ? ...I just don't seem to get aches at all sat down and I would certainly recommend giving that a try to anyone who suffers with back problems. Have a look at Dan Berglund playing all different techniques sat down without shifting the bass [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L7j6qImrlM[/media] ( probably never everyones cup of tea! ) ...I hasten to add that Dan also plays stood up from time to time !! Edited February 10, 2013 by ubassman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Anyone play with a bent Laborie endpin ? [i]"The bent endpin was developed for me by the luthier Horst Grünert. Its purpose is to change the center of gravity of the double bass so that a standing player will feel less weight on the thumb supporting the neck. In my approach to the instrument the left hand has access to both ends of the fingerboard and the bow arm can apply weight equally on the four strings without the necessity of turning the instrument. The bent endpin encourages an “opening” of the face of the bass and obliges the player to stand erect. Since the bass is at a steeper angle to the player it is automatically natural to apply the weight of both arms, especially the bow arm, with relaxed weight rather than muscular pressure. Notice also that the sound of the instrument is projected more efficiently at this angle." Francois Rabbath[/i] [url="http://www.uptonbass.com/UPGRADE-upright-double-Bass-Endpin-Angle-tilt-Block/"]http://www.uptonbass...gle-tilt-Block/[/url] Edited February 10, 2013 by ubassman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) [quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1360498681' post='1971195'] Anyone play with a bent Laborie endpin ? [i]"The bent endpin was developed for me by the luthier Horst Grünert. Its purpose is to change the center of gravity of the double bass so that a standing player will feel less weight on the thumb supporting the neck. In my approach to the instrument the left hand has access to both ends of the fingerboard and the bow arm can apply weight equally on the four strings without the necessity of turning the instrument. The bent endpin encourages an “opening” of the face of the bass and obliges the player to stand erect. Since the bass is at a steeper angle to the player it is automatically natural to apply the weight of both arms, especially the bow arm, with relaxed weight rather than muscular pressure. Notice also that the sound of the instrument is projected more efficiently at this angle." Francois Rabbath[/i] [url="http://www.uptonbass.com/UPGRADE-upright-double-Bass-Endpin-Angle-tilt-Block/"]http://www.uptonbass...gle-tilt-Block/[/url] [/quote] Rabbath demonstrates the thing in 'art of the bow'. Pretty convincing. Gareth Hughes mentioned using one way back and recommends it highly. I don't know of anyone else on here who does. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/124515-rabbath-v-simandl/"]http://basschat.co.u...bath-v-simandl/[/url] Edited February 10, 2013 by fatback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 Its quite a leap to make ....drilling another hole into the bottom block at an angle on an instrument that is much loved and precious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowlandtrees Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Are these 2 videos not giving conflicting advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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