Flipping basses on BC

[Shambo]

...as in selling them quickly for profit.

This issue arose on another thread a couple of weeks ago. A fellow forumite mentioned their dismay at someone buying basses cheaply and quickly turning them around for the BC marketplace at an inflated price. A few members chirped up and said 'this is the way of life', 'good luck to them' and then a few more, (me included), were surprised by this and mentioned that, whilst in no way against the rules, flipping basses on BC was poor etiquette and had previously been frowned upon by the community.

So which is it these days?

I'll set my stall out first and say I think flipping basses should not be encouraged. I'm very pleased that some members have disposable income and can snap up a bargain when they see one, but when they give it a spit 'n' polish and a new set of strings, then put it back in the marketplace for a few hundred quid more, well that leaves a bad taste. One of the reasons I've always been happy to buy and sell here is the sense of dealing with likeminded individuals, not used car salesmen.

Or am I being too wishy washy? Is it a dog eat dog, free for all now?

Has the will of the forum changed?

[Waldo]

Well it's just one of those things. Not really in the spirit of things but impossible to make rules against.

Nice to see someone from the Wirral, btw

[wateroftyne]

It's been done to death, man.

It's fair to say that most people (including me) frown upon it, but it's not going to go away.

I made a flowchart to help people along:

[attachment=127205:flow.gif]

[stingrayPete1977]

Has it really been two weeks since this was done to death? Might aswell do it again anyway then! Items sell for what they are worth to the person buying them, if that's not you or you can't afford it then its tough luck imo, if I buy a bass mainly because I feel it went for less than it might on another day perhaps because the seller did a bad job of listing it or because I drove miles to collect it because the seller would not post it why should I give it away for possibly a few hundred pound less than other similar basses listed on here/ebay at the same time, all that would do is reduce the market value of the other basses. I won't be selling my black pre eb on here at the price I paid for it anytime soon

[Big_Stu]

I thought it was, as you say, made clear in the original thread you mention. Personally I don't think it's the done thing, some don't "get" the spirit of this place & put the fast buck first; worse still are the ones who only seem to be here for that purpose & don't post anything advisory or worthwhile in other threads.
In that situation I wouldn't personally buy something on here unless I wanted it for my own needs; preferring to leave ones that I fancy, but that's all, to other BCers who do have a need/GAS for it.

It probably could be policed. Make a ban of reselling something on BC that was bought on BC in the previous year. It doesn't have to be a rigid ban, but would be easily policed by other BCers who would remember it being up for grabs previously.

[neepheid]

I don't frown upon it. I don't care. It's none of my business what the seller bought something for and I will never ask. I would vehemently oppose any market controls other than enforcing accurate and proper description of goods, bumping rules and correct sale conduct (like sending the goods promptly, not overcharging for postage, leaving accurate feedback). Price controls and a ban on reselling something within a certain timeframe? This is a market, not a padded sandbox.

[ahpook]

nobody's forced to use the marketplace....

[discreet]

Er... isn't it the basis of capitalism? You know, that system we all live under? Invest in a commodity then sell it at a higher price to make a profit..? What is the problem, exactly?

Having said that, I've only ever bought things on BC I thought I needed - and if not, sold them on at the same price (plus a bit of postage). But if anyone is entrepreneurial enough to make a few bob out of it, it's really nothing to do with me, whatever my views are about it.

As has been said, no-one's being ripped off here. If an item is priced too high, it won't sell, whether it's here, the Bay, Gumtree or anywhere else.

When I was a trader on eBay, I occasionally got messages from idiots who pointed out that they could buy the same items slightly cheaper somewhere else, and what on Earth was I doing sticking 5% on top?? Like I was supposed to be providing a service out of the kindness of my heart!

Edited February 10, 2013 by discreet

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1360507833' post='1971363']
I don't frown upon it. I don't care. It's none of my business what the seller bought something for and I will never ask. I would vehemently oppose any market controls other than enforcing accurate and proper description of goods, bumping rules and correct sale conduct (like sending the goods promptly, not overcharging for postage, leaving accurate feedback). Price controls and a ban on reselling something within a certain timeframe? This is a market, not a padded sandbox.
[/quote]

+1

If your desperate to sell because you need some cash quickly then surely a flipper is providing you a service, just like if you went into cash converters or something. Also perhaps some people are quite happy to pay a premium for a cleaned up and properly setup instrument as opposed to one with manky strings and a horrible action thats been neglected for years,

Edited February 10, 2013 by bassman7755

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1360508768' post='1971378']
Also perhaps some people are quite happy to pay a premium for a cleaned up and properly setup instrument as opposed to one with manky strings and a horrible action thats been neglected for years,
[/quote]

Something that is often overlooked.

For a long time I wouldn't dare touch a bass except to play it. The idea of "doing a set-up" (please imagine a loud, ominous minor chord being played on an organ in the background, preferably with Vincent Price at the keys) was pretty damned scary and I was perfectly happy to pay for someone else to do that.

[Waldo]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360507173' post='1971349']
Make a ban of reselling something on BC that was bought on BC in the previous year. It doesn't have to be a rigid ban, but would be easily policed by other BCers who would remember it being up for grabs previously.
[/quote]

A year? That would be a good idea if you wanted to kill the BC marketplace stone dead

The whole place is basically a giant swap-shop with small ammount of cash going each way.

[Shambo]

I personally am not proposing any change of the rules or policing of the marketplace. I just wonder if my moral compass needs recalibrating when it comes to the BC marketplace... and thanks for the condescending flowchart.

[discreet]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360507173' post='1971349']
Make a ban of reselling something on BC that was bought on BC in the previous year. It doesn't have to be a rigid ban, but would be easily policed by other BCers who would remember it being up for grabs previously.
[/quote]

Sorry Stu, but I think having the BC Marketplace policed by the very people who are buying and selling on it would be a total disaster... j[size=4]ust like it has been in the real Marketplace... [/size]

Edited February 10, 2013 by discreet

[ahpook]

just a thought - some people sell things cheaply as they either need the money straight away, not everyone's seeking to maximise their profit.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Waldo' timestamp='1360509268' post='1971396']
A year? That would be a good idea if you wanted to kill the BC marketplace stone dead

The whole place is basically a giant swap-shop with small ammount of cash going each way.
[/quote]

I haven't paid that much attention to it to monitor all the sales; is it really just a micro-market of the same stuff going round in circles with the odd punter paying over the odds?
Sounds like Blackburn town centre. I was in their "Crack Convertors" the other day, warming my hands on all their power tools.

[The Dark Lord]

Can't see any problem with this. You sell something at a price you want or need to sell it at. You buy something at a price you want or need to buy it at,

Ain't nobody else's business how much you buy and sell for. Presumably the person who sold was happy to sell - otherwise they wouldn't sell. If they were desperate to sell and had to accept a lower price - then then that's life. There is no question of etiquette in my opinion.

However, I think there are some hidden traders on here though. They should declare themselves. That's the unfair bit.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1360509494' post='1971404']
Sorry Stu, but I think having the BC Marketplace policed by the very people who are buying and selling on it would be a total disaster... j[size=4]ust like it has been in the real Marketplace... [/size]
[/quote]

I was thinking more of the moral indignation in the Ebay thread about that [i]luthier[/i] MDP & how much he's not getting for stuff he paid sh*te-pence for the week before.
All it would take would be a few "Is that the same bass you paid me less than half that for 6 months ago?", to make a possible mug think again & either decide it's still worth it or pocket their stash until something more appropriate to their needs comes along".
The only ones with anything to lose in such a scenario are the flippers.

[icastle]

I think it's about proportion.

If I went off to a car boot sale and picked up a pre CBS Fender Jazz Bass for £20, cleaned it up, stuck a new set of string on it and then flogged it on here for £400 would there still be a complaint because I'm making 20x what I paid for it?

As long as a price is fair (and that will undoubtedly be assessed by potential buyers) then I don't really see a huge problem.

If it's not fair then it just wont sell - that's how sales work.

[Dingus]

I have never bought or sold a bass on Basschat , but back in the days when I had less money than I do now I bought and sold loads of used basses , mainly out of neccessity . Some I broke even on , some I lost money on , some I made a modest profit on . The crucial thing is to be[u] honest [/u]with people and let them make their mind up made up based on truthful and accurate information about what you are selling .Things have a market value , and if someone sells a bass under the market value because they need or want to realise the cash value of their asset ( i.e the bass ) quickly then it is not neccesarilly unscrupulous or immoral for the person who has bought the bass cheaply to try and get the full market value of the bass . I agree wholeheartedly that , I would sincerely hope at least , the spirit of Basschat is one of genuine enthusiasts who want to go out of their way to be fair and helpful to each other - that is certainly the way I would want to conduct any business of my own on here - but ultimately if people think a seller is being exploitative then , as others have said , no one is forcing anyone to buy from them .

Edited February 10, 2013 by Dingus

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1360510101' post='1971421']
I think it's about proportion.

If I went off to a car boot sale and picked up a pre CBS Fender Jazz Bass for £20, cleaned it up, stuck a new set of string on it and then flogged it on here for £400 would there still be a complaint because I'm making 20x what I paid for it?[/quote]

I may be wrong - but I took the OP to mean just gear that was bought on here & then sold on at a huge profit shortly after, thereby denying another BCer who would have had a greater need for the bass rather than just gaining £££ his/her chance.
What you describe is fair-do's, buyer beware, etc & probably one that we'd all follow.

[icastle]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1360509901' post='1971412']
However, I think there are some hidden traders on here though. They should declare themselves. That's the unfair bit.
[/quote]

BC has had them from time to time but we do keep an eye out for these and shift their activities into the Affiliates section.

With the 1000's of posts we get on here and the fact that all the mods (even me occasionally!) have lives outside of BC, some of these will inevitably slip through the net.

So, if anyone thinks they've spotted a trader, report it and we'll check them out.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360509948' post='1971414']
I was thinking more of the moral indignation in the Ebay thread about that [i]luthier[/i] MDP & how much he's not getting for stuff he paid sh*te-pence for the week before.
All it would take would be a few "Is that the same bass you paid me less than half that for 6 months ago?", to make a possible mug think again & either decide it's still worth it or pocket their stash until something more appropriate to their needs comes along".
The only ones with anything to lose in such a scenario are the flippers.
[/quote]

In that case-
[b]The seller sold it too cheap by not doing [i]their[/i] homework [/b]
[b]The seller was desperate for cash[/b]
[b]The market has shot up maybe due to a reunion of a band that features the instrument in question etc[/b]

None of the above are the new sellers fault or give an obligation to give the bass away

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1360509373' post='1971400']
I personally am not proposing any change of the rules or policing of the marketplace. I just wonder if my moral compass needs recalibrating when it comes to the BC marketplace... and thanks for the condescending flowchart.
[/quote]

Not intended to be condescending. Just an illustration of what, IMO, it boils down to.

[Waldo]

As already suggested, the value of things change. I bought a Trace V4 combo on here for £250, sold it on for about £400 less than a year later (to an admin, no less). The same amp then went for £700 a few years ago and I'd fully expect it to be worth at least a grand now.

No-one's profiteered there.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1360510756' post='1971441']
In that case-
[b]The seller sold it too cheap by not doing [i]their[/i] homework [/b]
[b]The seller was desperate for cash[/b]
[b]The market has shot up maybe due to a reunion of a band that features the instrument in question etc[/b]

None of the above are the new sellers fault or give an obligation to give the bass away
[/quote]

It's your opinion; it's fair enough.
Personally I think there's something callous about a member of this forum buying a bass on here cheap with the sole intent of selling it on at profit to someone who could have had it at the price the profiteering member did.
As I just said, I was under the impression that that scenario is what the OP is talking about. It's not in what I took to be "the spirit" of this place, so I may - or may not - have had my eyes opened to the motives of some users on here. "Users" possibly being the operative word.