Will There Ever Be Another Great Innovator?

[Lowender]

How long has it been since a musician came along and changed everything? Someone who influence the way people playing the instument forever?

All though musical history there have been innovators. In my lifetime, Hendrix did it, Jaco did it, Steve Gadd... who else? Some might say Michael Brecker but I always thought of him as a funky Coltrane on steroids.

I don't hear too many bassist changing things like Stanley or Chris Squier. (Sorry, I don't see Victor as an innovator. He's also hardly known to the general public).

Even as far as bands, in the 70's so many groups were changing the landscape of music. 1970 saw the first Zeppelin album, the first King Crimson album, the first Black Sabbath album. Stand up by Jethro Tull. What's Going on by Marvin Gaye. Right there, that's more good music than in the last 10 years.

I think Kurt Cobain was the last "pop music" innovator. Amy Whinehouse was the only singer in years who everyone imitated. I can't think of one musician in the last 15 years who redefined the instrument.

So...are we done? Is there nothing left to say, or more accurately, is everything too easily assessable to seem unique and revolutionary? Those who were considered god are now imitated by 16 year old kids playing in their living room.

There will always be talent. But another Beatles, another, Buddy Rich, another Van Halen. Im thinking, maybe not. What do you say?

[neepheid]

I'm in two minds about this. The scientist in me says that surely there can only be so many combinations of the 12 notes (A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#) at our disposal in western music.

It's all opinion though. I will never forget the moment in 1997 when I first listened to Radiohead's OK Computer. That was a totally absorbing moment that I haven't come close to since and easily the match of any of the albums you mentioned (and believe me, I used to stare, mesmerised at the turntable playing my Dad's vinyl - there was something about the tempo of Cream's N.S.U. that seemed to lock in with the 33 1/3 rpm of the record label...). You may disagree, and that's fine, but that's my top moment of "recent" history.

Now that I'm older, and my ability to appreciate new music seems to have forsaken me for the time being, I find myself mostly ignorant of what's been happening in the last 5-10 years. That's my fault, not the music's.

[SteveK]

Unfortunately, these days the industry doesn't really allow for the nurturing of talent. An artist is dropped unless they can shift the required number of units on their first release. Music is suffering as a result. Many of the bands that were successful in the past didn't achieve their success until maybe their third or fourth albums.

Edited February 10, 2013 by SteveK

[spongebob]

I've not heard anything 'new' that's really excited me for ages. Pointless re-treads don't interest me!

Last week I bought 'Live Evil' from Miles Davis - recorded in 1970, and 100000 times fresher and more exciting that anything I've heard this decade! [size=4] [/size]

[Dingus]

I think it's inevitable that there will be more popular music artists of great stature , but the fundamental thing that has changed is the public perception of those artists and the significance of that art form as a whole . Rock and pop music was once a vanguard of social change and cultural revolution , whereas nowadays it is just another commodity , the same as cornflakes or baked beans . The symbolic importance of being able to buy your CDs at the supermarket shouldn't be underestimated . Everything is a time and a place , and the wider context into which records were and are released greatly influences our perception of the music contained in these recordings .

[paul_5]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1360511700' post='1971468']
Unfortunately, these days the industry doesn't really allow for the nurturing of talent. An artist is dropped unless they can shift the required number of units on their first release. Music is suffering as a result. Many of the bands that were successful in the past didn't achieve their success until maybe their third or fourth albums.
[/quote]

True. What we need is to have a couple of really successful bands/artists who do everything themselves - writing, performing, recording, producing, distributing, promotion etc... who have an exciting take on popular music to really move things along.

Tall order.

The Internet and DAW technology [i]should[/i] make all of the above possible, but it's not necessarily guaranteed to be successful...

[Stan_da_man]

On the subject of public awareness; I'm pretty sure if I said 'Jaco Pastorius' to 99% of the general public, their reply would be "Bless you"!

[Stan_da_man]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1360516884' post='1971581']


True. What we need is to have a couple of really successful bands/artists who do everything themselves - writing, performing, recording, producing, distributing, promotion etc... who have an exciting take on popular music to really move things along.

Tall order.

The Internet and DAW technology [i]should[/i] make all of the above possible, but it's not necessarily guaranteed to be successful...
[/quote]
Fugazi were doing that 20 years ago.

[JMM]

I can see there being more innovators, but perhaps technological innovators in the form of effects and not necessarily new playing techniques. Loop pedals are allowing music to be played that has never been played solo before. They're also allowing creating quite different arrangements, due to the way they work. The trouble is now that music is more accessible and it's easier for bands to record and play now, the main issue is getting noticed.

The only thing I think I've ever done which I think is probably a first, is to put one of my dreadlocks under the strings near the bridge while playing, in a similar way to the bridge mutes on some stringrays. It did work really well and I loved the tone, but I can't see myself becoming famous for it haha.

[quote name='Stan_da_man' timestamp='1360516942' post='1971583']
On the subject of public awareness; I'm pretty sure if I said 'Jaco Pastorius' to 99% of the general public, their reply would be "Bless you"!
[/quote]

My old amp had a sticker on showing how to emulate certain sounds, one of them being Jaco's. I had a sound engineer in a studio think that it was Michael Jackson!

[Grassie]

IMO the last true innovators were the electronic artists, starting with Kraftwerk and a lot of the British artists that followed (Depeche Mode, Vince Clarke in particular, OMD, Numan etc). True innovation usually follows new technology, and really, the only innovations in tech in recent years have been the way in which we listen to music, rather than the way in which we create it. There are many electronic musicians about at the moment, but to my ears it all sounds pretty similar and safe. We certainly need a new revolution, but who is there to inspire kids these days? Nicki Minaj? Justin Bieber? One Direction? "Mainstream" music is dead and buried, and the musicians who are to inspire the next generation are to be found in "alternative" genres - jazz, metal, electronica (to a certain extent). It's these genres that need the exposure in order to inspire, but by their very nature remain alternative and less likely to get that exposure. The likes of Simon Cowell have decimated popular music by reducing it to a business model and it will take another generation for it to recover.

[lojo]

I think right up to and throughout the 80s and early 90s there where lots of original ideas and original takes on existing music, even in the mainstream

Now not so much, its all nonsense.

If you ask my daughter and son about modern music, they will say alot of it is great

So it could just be my age limiting me from hearing new things, and when I do like a new young band, its generally because they are similar to something I used to like (yuck or the horrors are a good example of that)

Edited February 10, 2013 by lojo

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360510549' post='1971431']
How long has it been since a musician came along and changed everything? Someone who influence the way people playing the instument forever?
[/quote]

You won't know until it happens, and it only happens if a significant number of other musicians start copying the "innovator". None of those who were considered to be innovators didn't think it was a big deal at the time. They were just getting on with the business of making music the way that they wanted. If you did know what the next innovation in music was going to be surely you'd already be out there doing it?

[SlapbassSteve]

I think a lot of the problem is the way the two remaining record labels these days have no option but to play it safe and only release what they know will sell. There was a time where smaller labels would be willing to give bands a decent chance(hence all the bands that only made it with their 3rd of 4th albums) but nowadays the majority of bands these days have a great debut and are promptly forgotten. There are exceptions of course, look at the Kings Of Leon...

[wateroftyne]

I agree with the OP. No-one has truly turned things upside-down since Cobain.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360510549' post='1971431']
All though musical history there have been innovators. In my lifetime, Hendrix did it, Jaco did it, Steve Gadd... who else? Some might say Michael Brecker but I always thought of him as a funky Coltrane on steroids.

I don't hear too many bassist changing things like Stanley or Chris Squier. (Sorry, I don't see Victor as an innovator. He's also hardly known to the general public).

Even as far as bands, in the 70's so many groups were changing the landscape of music. 1970 saw the first Zeppelin album, the first King Crimson album, the first Black Sabbath album. Stand up by Jethro Tull. What's Going on by Marvin Gaye. Right there, that's more good music than in the last 10 years.

I think Kurt Cobain was the last "pop music" innovator. Amy Whinehouse was the only singer in years who everyone imitated. I can't think of one musician in the last 15 years who redefined the instrument.
[/quote]

Who's a innovator and who's not is fairly subjective. I would say it's the people who influence others to the point where you find lots of other musicians sounding like them. Peter Hook gets a lot of stick for not being much of a technician, but his playing style was massively influential. There was a point in the early 80s where it seemed as though every other band in the UK had a bass player who desperately wanted to be him. No one had really sounded like that before, so if that isn't innovation I don't know what is.

Back in the 70s it was far easier to be an innovator because pop and rock music were still fairly new. There were no real rules and very little in the way of tuition materials available (Bert Weedon's Play In A Day? - it wasn't very rock n roll), so once you'd learnt how to make the chord shapes and move from one chord to another you were pretty much on your own. If you had any kind of imagination it wasn't really too difficult to come up with something that hadn't been done before.

Kurt Cobain as an innovator? Please... he spent most of his career copying bands like Killing Joke and The Pixies. Nothing really new there.

However here are plenty of people who have been redefining music in the last 10 years. However most of them are working in electronica rather than the more traditional rock/pop/jazz fields. Look beyond 70s influenced rock and there's a wealth of new music pushing at the boundaries.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360510549' post='1971431']
So...are we done? Is there nothing left to say, or more accurately, is everything too easily assessable to seem unique and revolutionary? Those who were considered god are now imitated by 16 year old kids playing in their living room.

There will always be talent. But another Beatles, another, Buddy Rich, another Van Halen. Im thinking, maybe not. What do you say?
[/quote]

Of course we're not done. If you think that, you should either pack it in completely, or form a tribute to your favourite band of the past.

You will have to work a lot harder if you want to be considered an innovator, because there is now such a broad variety of music available to those with the inclination to go and seek it out, and cobbling a couple of different styles together no longer really cuts it as something new.

Maybe what you need to do is to put yourself in the sort of musical environment of those you consider to be classic innovators. Stop listening to music by other people, throw any theory knowledge you have out of the window and start making music that comes directly from within yourself. But you can't force it. It has to happen in its own time.

If you honestly can't see that there will always be great new musicians, bands and music, then I feel a little bit sorry for you.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360521014' post='1971692']

Kurt Cobain as an innovator? Please... he spent most of his career copying bands like Killing Joke and The Pixies. Nothing really new there.

[/quote]

And don't forget the Meat Puppets and Dinosaur Jr.

[hamfist]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360521014' post='1971692']
Who's a innovator and who's not is fairly subjective. I would say it's the people who influence others to the point where you find lots of other musicians sounding like them. Peter Hook gets a lot of stick for not being much of a technician, but his playing style was massively influential. There was a point in the early 80s where it seemed as though every other band in the UK had a bass player who desperately wanted to be him. No one had really sounded like that before, so if that isn't innovation I don't know what is.

Back in the 70s it was far easier to be an innovator because pop and rock music were still fairly new. There were no real rules and very little in the way of tuition materials available (Bert Weedon's Play In A Day? - it wasn't very rock n roll), so once you'd learnt how to make the chord shapes and move from one chord to another you were pretty much on your own. If you had any kind of imagination it wasn't really too difficult to come up with something that hadn't been done before.

Kurt Cobain as an innovator? Please... he spent most of his career copying bands like Killing Joke and The Pixies. Nothing really new there.

However here are plenty of people who have been redefining music in the last 10 years. However most of them are working in electronica rather than the more traditional rock/pop/jazz fields. Look beyond 70s influenced rock and there's a wealth of new music pushing at the boundaries.
[/quote]

We must have been separated at birth because I agree with every word of that.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360510549' post='1971431']
... I don't see Victor as an innovator. He's also hardly known to the general public ...
[/quote]
Almost everyone you mentioned is 'hardly known to the general public'.

[arthurhenry]

Leo Fender, without whom etc.....

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360510549' post='1971431']I think Kurt Cobain was the last "pop music" innovator.[/quote]

I liked Bleach but innovative?

Would you say what Tom Morello did was not innovative? Less innovative than what Kurt Cobain did?

The word loses its meaning the more you try to apply it to stuff.

[Dr M]

I think a big part of the problem is the lack of guitar-based music in the mainstream at the moment. There certainly are innovators around, but it seems to me they're struggling to get any real interest. Record companies seem reluctant to take risks on anything with a basis in rock at the moment (or blues, jazz, metal, etc.)

An earlier post mentioned DAW and associated technology. Bands certainly are using this to create some very interesting effects:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuunY8BTqNs[/media]

Maybe not to everyone's taste, but certainly innovative!

[gjones]

Musical innovators and great artists are usually obessives. They will create art whether or not they have an audience. Since the record companies have turned into the equivalent of MacDonald's don't expect them to encourage or introduce groundbreaking artists. We'll have to do some digging ourselves. But since it's got so much easier to produce music and distribute it to worldwide audiences there must be some amazing stuff out there. It's just that ,maybe, we're just too set in our ways to go searching for it.

[gilli1812]

The next innovation will probably in stylistic approach, thrash reggae anyone?
Take the piano all the mechanical and technological advancements where made in the 1800's, most innovations on the piano have come from new styles, jazz , rock n roll etc, but saying that in 1979 when we had clarke jaco geddy and squire who'd of seen people like victor comin?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dr M' timestamp='1360525754' post='1971832']
I think a big part of the problem is the lack of guitar-based music in the mainstream at the moment. There certainly are innovators around, but it seems to me they're struggling to get any real interest. Record companies seem reluctant to take risks on anything with a basis in rock at the moment (or blues, jazz, metal, etc.)

An earlier post mentioned DAW and associated technology. Bands certainly are using this to create some very interesting effects:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuunY8BTqNs[/media]

Maybe not to everyone's taste, but certainly innovative!
[/quote]

I don't see why music has to defined by the instruments that are being used to make it.

Also the clip you posted doesn't really have anything new in it. There have been bands doing that kind of thing since the early 80s.