Lowender Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1360524029' post='1971775'] I liked Bleach but innovative? Would you say what Tom Morello did was not innovative? Less innovative than what Kurt Cobain did? The word loses its meaning the more you try to apply it to stuff. [/quote] Yes, Cobain was most certainly innovative. Not that he was a virtuoso but he had the uncanny knack of using clumsy chord chages to create incredable melodies. Only John Lennon was on par with that. (Think the intro verse to "If I Fell). He also defined a sound that overnight changed the landscape of popular music. That's saying something. He also sang his ass off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360528790' post='1971915'] I don't see why music has to defined by the instruments that are being used to make it. Also the clip you posted doesn't really have anything new in it. There have been bands doing that kind of thing since the early 80s. [/quote] Agree. They sound like a thousand 80's bands. They just added some "noise sections." That's easy. Being innovative doens;t just mean doing something different -- it means doing something different and good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360529145' post='1971923'] Agree. They sound like a thousand 80's bands. They just added some "noise sections." That's easy. Being innovative doens;t just mean doing something different -- it means doing something different and good. [/quote] Even the noise sections aren't new. Check something like Nag Nag Nag by Cabaret Voltaire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360529026' post='1971921'] Yes, Cobain was most certainly innovative. [/quote] No he wasn't. As I said in a previous post most of his ideas were nicked from bands like Killing Joke and The Pixies to name but two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Simon Cowell etc have turned music into a bland throwaway cash cow. The labels are unwilling to spend money on bands that don't give an instant return in sales and are quick to delete anyone trying to be different if they don't generate these sales. The general public wouldn't know innovation if it bit them on the bum, they are used to being spoon feed crap. I can't see things changing in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='Bassman Sam' timestamp='1360531402' post='1971986'] ... I can't see things changing in the near future. [/quote] ... but the future lasts a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360529669' post='1971943'] No he wasn't. As I said in a previous post most of his ideas were nicked from bands like Killing Joke and The Pixies to name but two. [/quote] Don't agree. There's a little of the Pixies in there but his melodic movement was far more realized and there is absolutley nothing Killing Joke did that remotely resembles Nirvana. Sorry. That;'s like saying a Charlie Parker wasn;t an innovator because he listened to Lester Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1360532462' post='1972006'] ... but the future lasts a long time. [/quote] Not denying that, that's why I said "near" future. I can't see things changing much in the next 10 years when the Cowells of this world have such a strangle hold on the music industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360533222' post='1972025'] Don't agree. There's a little of the Pixies in there but his melodic movement was far more realized[/quote] I think The Pixies took a lot more harmonic risks than Nirvana ever did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetaFunk Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The Beatles are the only innovators. Forget the rest. They are Gods. See 'The Beatles' thread for confirmation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1360516884' post='1971581'] True. What we need is to have a couple of really successful bands/artists who do everything themselves - writing, performing, recording, producing, distributing, promotion etc... who have an exciting take on popular music to really move things along. Tall order. The Internet and DAW technology [i]should[/i] make all of the above possible, but it's not necessarily guaranteed to be successful... [/quote] Enter Shikari fit this until the past couple of years, and i know The Blackout did as well (Even to the point where they had pledges and a donation fund to manage to record an album). Not sure i'd really call either Innovators, though i suppose the way Enter Shikari have fused electronic music into rock/metal could be seen as innovative. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1360538557' post='1972147'] I think The Pixies took a lot more harmonic risks than Nirvana ever did. [/quote] Yeah, and they sounded like risks. Cobain hit the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 1 word... Coldplay Ok, that's 2 words, but they redefined bland! Now that's true innovation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Dizzee Rascel /Wiley - or whever came up with grime.... hip hop meets faster pop beats and suddenly London has it's first genuine urban music style- the speed of which US pop acts picked it up shows you how influential it has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 and... innovation of music yes. innovation of how a band works yes (see myspace,DIY, in rainbows etc) innovation of bass guitar playing... I'm not holding my breath. I would ask BigRedX - where would you see inovation coming from? New techniques, or changes to the instrument somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Do you mean musical innovation? I don't believe it exists. All music is creative in one way or another, so in order for it to be considered innovative, what would it be compared to? I'm not a marketing expert but have observed that innovation tends to be driven by breakthroughs in new technology. The architect Norman Foster has stayed on top of his game by engaging an engineer who was very precise in their calculations and was able to explore the tolerances of both old and new structures. Look at how the internet changed business. What about the impact of mobile phones on how we communicate (for those of us who remember a pre-mobile and pre-internet world). Hell...look at what happened with the electric guitar and music. Initially there's a huge rush to adopt the technology, followed by a scrabble for market share (he who dominates first, wins), followed by a process of consolidation whereby competitors are either bought out or squeezed out, then things start to stabilise until the next leap in technology. Gradually the leaps get smaller and smaller (like they have with the specifications of laptops) until the market goes a bit stale and companies have to find other ways to sustain interest...(like making something fashionable). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360544741' post='1972233'] Do you mean musical innovation? I don't believe it exists. All music is creative in one way or another, so in order for it to be considered innovative, what would it be compared to? I'm not a marketing expert but have observed that innovation tends to be driven by breakthroughs in new technology. The architect Norman Foster has stayed on top of his game by engaging an engineer who was very precise in their calculations and was able to explore the tolerances of both old and new structures. Look at how the internet changed business. What about the impact of mobile phones on how we communicate (for those of us who remember a pre-mobile and pre-internet world). Hell...look at what happened with the electric guitar and music. Initially there's a huge rush to adopt the technology, followed by a scrabble for market share (he who dominates first, wins), followed by a process of consolidation whereby competitors are either bought out or squeezed out, then things start to stabilise until the next leap in technology. Gradually the leaps get smaller and smaller (like they have with the specifications of laptops) until the market goes a bit stale and companies have to find other ways to sustain interest...(like making something fashionable). [/quote] What new technology did Clapton use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 What you are talking about here is changing the way things are done, yeah? Well, i have thought about this, and nearly anything you could do with your fingers or hands on the fretboard or with the strings has been done, so the only logical response would be- Yes, if somebody built a bass that had a new system on it. Obviously, since it doesn't exist, i can't say what that might be, but i am assuming there is somebody out there, who wants to do something in particular with their instrument, but physically can't, and will have to turn to modification and design to achieve it. Unless anybody here can say with certainty that anything that is possible has already been done with regards to modifications, i think that's the only way we are going to see something that actually hasn't been done before. Unless somebody comes up with new chords, or a new system for playing chords (like the barre system, only... different, somehow). Personally, i had a little idea a while ago. It's essentially a semi-acoustic guitar... only different. hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360545221' post='1972235'] What new technology did Clapton use? [/quote] Is Clapton considered innovative though? Great, certainly, but he wasn't really doing anything that didn't already exist, was he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360545221' post='1972235'] What new technology did Clapton use? [/quote] Clapton is derivative. Doesn't mean he's a bad guitarist BTW. But he's not as innovative as someone like...ooh, Robert Tripp for example. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360546225' post='1972247'] Is Clapton considered innovative though? Great, certainly, but he wasn't really doing anything that didn't already exist, was he? [/quote] Two words. Robert Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360545221' post='1972235'] What new technology did Clapton use? [/quote] Fuzz-Face, High gain amps, squealy feedback, not exactly new, but only just beginning to be used that way. The Les Paul was a piece of crap til people started overdriving it. Can't do cleans for crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1360576754' post='1972420'] The Les Paul was a piece of crap til people started overdriving it. Can't do cleans for crap. [/quote] I have a feeling that Mr Polsfuss would have disagreed with you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I'm sorry to have to say this but the people who claim there is no innovation in modern music are usually too lazy to take the time to follow the crumbs and investigate music properly. There is always a mass of exciting, innovative music at any given moment in time. There is always something to amaze and inspire you but you have to be bothered to look for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360580602' post='1972507'] I have a feeling that Mr Polsfuss would have disagreed with you there. [/quote] Yeah, I am being slightly deliberately provocative. However, I've never got a clean sound I like from a Les. Have from an SG though interestingly. Obviously it's designer did some pretty nifty tunes on his, but I don't like the sound of it. And it's fairly significant that they'd stopped production on them until Clapton et al started making exciting noises with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I guess a lot of this depends on how you define a "great innovator". As others have mentioned, I'd argue there are great innovators springing up continually in music. It all depends on where you choose to look (or listen!). The issue here is that most people seem to be relating this discussion to 'conventional' guitar-based music (which itself wasn't so 'conventional' until the mid-1900s). The moment you step off this well trodden path - and particularly into the world of electronica - then you'll find a wealth of people trailblazing new innovations, new technologies, new sounds, new genres, etc, etc. Such innovators might not (yet) be 'household names' in the way someone like Hendrix is a well-recognised icon today. But to an 18 year-old, they are equally as important as Hendrix was to an 18-year old at Monterey, or wherever, in the late 60s. I've quoted this on BC before, but here it is again as I think it's particularly relevant to this discussion: [i]“Every generation wants to be the last. Every generation hates the next trend in music they can't understand. We hate to give up those reins of our culture. To find our own music playing in elevators. The ballad for our revolution, turned into background music for a television commercial. To find our generation's clothes and hair suddenly retro.”[/i] ― Chuck Palahniuk, Lullaby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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