What's the difference between CIJ and MIJ?

[Lord Sausage]

Some have told CIJ is better, some MIJ. Others have told me it's just MIJ is for export, CIJ is for Japanese market. What's the truth?!

[LukeFRC]

It's bollocks - Fender used to use a couple of factorys to build their basses - the first was Greco I think (but don't quote me on that)
and from 1982-97 they used Made in Japan.
In 97 I think it swiched to another producer who used "Crafted in Japan" - until 2007,2008 when they start using Made in Japan again - probably another factory. The fender website lists more Made in japan from 2010-2011 from yet another factory for certain models.
So thats the reason for the switch... different suppliers.

So why do I think it's all bollocks ebay sellers language? Well mainly because you rarely hear of a bad Fender bass - wether MIJ or CIJ and that if there is a difference I suspect it's so minimal that it's both not as big as variation from bass to bass, and not worth worrying about one bit. They will both be decent basses.

But....
Some japanese Fender were made to export (like the Geddie Lee model) and some were made for the japanese market. Which is better?
Well the best guitars that Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.
And also the worst guitars Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.... they make a range of qualities for their market - from cheaper basic models to top of the range vintage reissues and even the japanese version of a custom shop... and of course that's changed over the years too!

So in conclusion. The fact that it's MIJ or CIJ, made for export or made for import tells you very little about how good it is or how high up the range it is- just that it was made in japan.

Hope that helps!

[gjones]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1360613304' post='1973483']
Some have told CIJ is better, some MIJ. Others have told me it's just MIJ is for export, CIJ is for Japanese market. What's the truth?!
[/quote]

All the MIJ and CIJ basses I've owned (3 jazzes and a precision) were excellent.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360614310' post='1973517']
It's bollocks - Fender used to use a couple of factorys to build their basses - the first was Greco I think (but don't quote me on that)
and from 1982-97 they used Made in Japan.
In 97 I think it swiched to another producer who used "Crafted in Japan" - until 2007,2008 when they start using Made in Japan again - probably another factory. The fender website lists more Made in japan from 2010-2011 from yet another factory for certain models.
So thats the reason for the switch... different suppliers.

So why do I think it's all bollocks ebay sellers language? Well mainly because you rarely hear of a bad Fender bass - wether MIJ or CIJ and that if there is a difference I suspect it's so minimal that it's both not as big as variation from bass to bass, and not worth worrying about one bit. They will both be decent basses.

But....
Some japanese Fender were made to export (like the Geddie Lee model) and some were made for the japanese market. Which is better?
Well the best guitars that Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.
And also the worst guitars Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.... they make a range of qualities for their market - from cheaper basic models to top of the range vintage reissues and even the japanese version of a custom shop... and of course that's changed over the years too!

So in conclusion. The fact that it's MIJ or CIJ, made for export or made for import tells you very little about how good it is or how high up the range it is- just that it was made in japan.

Hope that helps!
[/quote]It does. Cheers!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1360620311' post='1973660']
It does. Cheers!
[/quote] so your '62ri ... probably has the spiral bridge and will be a higher end model made of alder. i.e. a good one.

[Musky]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360614310' post='1973517']
It's bollocks - Fender used to use a couple of factorys to build their basses - the first was Greco I think (but don't quote me on that)
and from 1982-97 they used Made in Japan.
In 97 I think it swiched to another producer who used "Crafted in Japan" - until 2007,2008 when they start using Made in Japan again - probably another factory. The fender website lists more Made in japan from 2010-2011 from yet another factory for certain models.
So thats the reason for the switch... different suppliers.

So why do I think it's all bollocks ebay sellers language? Well mainly because you rarely hear of a bad Fender bass - wether MIJ or CIJ and that if there is a difference I suspect it's so minimal that it's both not as big as variation from bass to bass, and not worth worrying about one bit. They will both be decent basses.

But....
Some japanese Fender were made to export (like the Geddie Lee model) and some were made for the japanese market. Which is better?
Well the best guitars that Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.
And also the worst guitars Fender Japan make are for the japanese market.... they make a range of qualities for their market - from cheaper basic models to top of the range vintage reissues and even the japanese version of a custom shop... and of course that's changed over the years too!

So in conclusion. The fact that it's MIJ or CIJ, made for export or made for import tells you very little about how good it is or how high up the range it is- just that it was made in japan.

Hope that helps!
[/quote]
It was Fuji Gen that made the MIJ's (as a JV owner I thought you'd know that ). They also made some of the Grecos, so maybe that's where the confusion comes from. I think it's Tokai and Dyna that makes the CIJ's, though the first ones appeared in parallel with MIJ's around 92-97 I think. It has been speculated that Fuji Gen had something in their contract that specified they were the makers of 'MIJ' instruments. It's also speculated that the return of 'MIJ' basses means they are making the Japanese stuff now. I'm not entirely sure where these theories came from, but it's on the internet, so must be true.

Speaking of 'true' stuff on the internet, the wikipedia Fender Japan page has all this info just so anyone can fill their boots with the latest rumours.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1360624106' post='1973758']
It was Fuji Gen that made the MIJ's (as a JV owner I thought you'd know that ). They also made some of the Grecos, so maybe that's where the confusion comes from. I think it's Tokai and Dyna that makes the CIJ's, though the first ones appeared in parallel with MIJ's around 92-97 I think. It has been speculated that Fuji Gen had something in their contract that specified they were the makers of 'MIJ' instruments. It's also speculated that the return of 'MIJ' basses means they are making the Japanese stuff now. I'm not entirely sure where these theories came from, but it's on the internet, so must be true.

Speaking of 'true' stuff on the internet, the wikipedia Fender Japan page has all this info just so anyone can fill their boots with the latest rumours.
[/quote] ahh... cos of course Greco is just a brand.... man, Bassassin would shoot me if he were still around!

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360621075' post='1973676']
so your '62ri ... probably has the spiral bridge and will be a higher end model made of alder. i.e. a good one.
[/quote]Mine's a CIJ

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1360617429' post='1973587']
All the MIJ and CIJ basses I've owned [s](3 jazzes and a precision)[/s] were excellent.
[/quote]

This is my experience too & all of a similar quality

[mckendrick]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1360613304' post='1973483']
Some have told CIJ is better, some MIJ. Others have told me it's just MIJ is for export, CIJ is for Japanese market. What's the truth?!
[/quote]
Quote.....

[i][size=4]"[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Among the Fender Japanese guitars, there were two different logos used: [b][i]Crafted in Japan [/i][/b]and [b][i]Made in Japan, [/i][/b]and both were being made at the same time from 1994 till 1997. This means that the the serial numbers starting in 1994 ran consecutively on both the MIJ and the CIJ models while the MIJ logo was being phased out. Mid–1997 the CIJ logo was the only one used on Fender guitars coming out of Japan (with exception the Squire series).

[b]There are several theories about why some Japanese Fenders have MIJ and others CIJ[/b]. One is that there was a reorganizing of where the parts were being make in the large, expansive [i]Fugi Gen Gakki[/i] company. The island of Matsumoto is where the Fugi plant is located. It houses 15-20 different smaller companies, Like [i]Kawi, Gen Gakki Ten, Yamara, Gotoh, Yamoto, [/i]etc. I was told by a former Fender Rep that the necks were made one place and the bodies another, while the electronics were made in yet another. I was told that the contract with [i]Yamoto[/i] stated if any major subcontractor was to be changed the weaning process would have to take place (MIJ to CIJ). They call it the “Squire countdown.” Since [i]Fuji[/i] was pressing hard to get the Epiphone contract, a change was made. [i]Kawi[/i] was moving the bulk of their piano building to a new facility in China, and would also be making their own “harp” frames there. This freed up a lot of space in the plant. [i]Yamara[/i] and [i]Gotoh[/i] retooled to handle the woodwork and finish aspects of the guitars—thus the [b]Crafted in Japan[/b] line was created.

[b]The other story is, and maybe both are true and run consecutively,[/b] I really don’t know, but the MIJ logo Fenders were for the USA market. USA Fender wanted to stop the import of these guitars to the USA due to firing up their Mexican plant and due to the “too good” quality Japan was creating which competed with the USA models."[/font][/size][/i]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]From; [url="http://xhefriguitars.com/page9.html"]http://xhefriguitars.com/page9.html[/url][/font]

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1360628659' post='1973840']
Quote.....

[i]"[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Among the Fender Japanese guitars, there were two different logos used: [b][i]Crafted in Japan [/i][/b]and [b][i]Made in Japan, [/i][/b]and both were being made at the same time from 1994 till 1997. This means that the the serial numbers starting in 1994 ran consecutively on both the MIJ and the CIJ models while the MIJ logo was being phased out. Mid–1997 the CIJ logo was the only one used on Fender guitars coming out of Japan (with exception the Squire series).

[b]There are several theories about why some Japanese Fenders have MIJ and others CIJ[/b]. One is that there was a reorganizing of where the parts were being make in the large, expansive [i]Fugi Gen Gakki[/i] company. The island of Matsumoto is where the Fugi plant is located. It houses 15-20 different smaller companies, Like [i]Kawi, Gen Gakki Ten, Yamara, Gotoh, Yamoto, [/i]etc. I was told by a former Fender Rep that the necks were made one place and the bodies another, while the electronics were made in yet another. I was told that the contract with [i]Yamoto[/i] stated if any major subcontractor was to be changed the weaning process would have to take place (MIJ to CIJ). They call it the “Squire countdown.” Since [i]Fuji[/i] was pressing hard to get the Epiphone contract, a change was made. [i]Kawi[/i] was moving the bulk of their piano building to a new facility in China, and would also be making their own “harp” frames there. This freed up a lot of space in the plant. [i]Yamara[/i] and [i]Gotoh[/i] retooled to handle the woodwork and finish aspects of the guitars—thus the [b]Crafted in Japan[/b] line was created.

[b]The other story is, and maybe both are true and run consecutively,[/b] I really don’t know, but the MIJ logo Fenders were for the USA market. USA Fender wanted to stop the import of these guitars to the USA due to firing up their Mexican plant and due to the “too good” quality Japan was creating which competed with the USA models."[/font][/i]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]From; [url="http://xhefriguitars.com/page9.html"]http://xhefriguitars.com/page9.html[/url][/font]
[/quote] interesting website that... seems to suggest fender japan started in late 1984. Which is odd, as my JV was made in 1982....

[mckendrick]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360629901' post='1973855']
interesting website that... seems to suggest fender japan started in late 1984. Which is odd, as my JV was made in 1982....
[/quote]
I think Fender Japan didn't organise into an independent concern until 1984. Although Fender branded product was produced from 1982 I think it was still under the Fender USA umbrella to supply the US market until post-CBS Fender USA picked up in '84 under the leadership of BIll Schultz. Summat like that.

.

Edited February 12, 2013 by mckendrick

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1360631736' post='1973868']
I think Fender Japan didn't organise into an independent concern until 1984. Although Fender branded product was produced from 1982 I think it was still under the Fender USA umbrella to supply the US market until post-CBS Fender USA picked up in '84 under the leadership of BIll Schultz. Summat like that.

.
[/quote] I don't really follow this (it is late mind) according to the info (and photo of the announcement) on 21frets.com Fender Japan Co. Ltd was formed March 11 1982 - the site you linked too seems to suggest that Fender japan was formed to stand in for Fender USA for a few years - but (again 21frets as my source) many of the early Fender Japan stuff was for the japanese market or lower end stuff (i.e. JV squier) for USA and Europe - yes a lot of them are very good but I think this was coincidental rather than an attempt to replace Fender USA for a while- if that makes sense. I mean did Fender badged Japanese instruments even get exported to the states in the early 80's at all?

I like Japanese Fenders, a lot. I think they can be some of the best and most consistent fenders you can buy - but their is this odd mythologising of them - like how many times have we all read (as in that article) that the JV, SQ and some E series japanese Fenders used lots of Fender USA parts.... which would be nice.... and some of the first JV model strats seem to have usa pickups... but the wider idea that well of course they "all used them", without saying which parts, which ranges and for how long, and where the evidence for that is. There seems to be this desire (perhaps understandable from people trying to sell them) to coinflate everything that says Fender Japan on it with the very best of what Fender Japan makes - an equivalent would be to sell a half decent Fender USA bass with a description of the top of the range custom shop bass they make. Yes there are links but that doesn't make them the same/equal. ...


on the whole great basses though!

[mckendrick]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360635541' post='1973884']
I mean did Fender badged Japanese instruments even get exported to the states in the early 80's at all?
[/quote]
S***loads in 1983

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360635541' post='1973884']
I like Japanese Fenders, a lot. I think they can be some of the best and most consistent fenders you can buy - but their is this odd mythologising of them - like how many times have we all read (as in that article) that the JV, SQ and some E series japanese Fenders used lots of Fender USA parts.... which would be nice.... and some of the first JV model strats seem to have usa pickups... but the wider idea that well of course they "all used them", without saying which parts, which ranges and for how long, and where the evidence for that is. There seems to be this desire (perhaps understandable from people trying to sell them) to coinflate everything that says Fender Japan on it with the very best of what Fender Japan makes - an equivalent would be to sell a half decent Fender USA bass with a description of the top of the range custom shop bass they make. Yes there are links but that doesn't make them the same/equal. ...
[/quote]
Er..., yes.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360635541' post='1973884']
....on the whole great basses though!
[/quote]
That, too.

[noelk27]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1360628659' post='1973840'][i][size=4]"[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]There are several theories about why some Japanese Fenders have MIJ and others CIJ[/b]. One is that there was a reorganizing of where the parts were being make in the large, expansive [i]Fugi Gen Gakki[/i] company. The island of Matsumoto is where the Fugi plant is located. It houses 15-20 different smaller companies, Like [i]Kawi, Gen Gakki Ten, Yamara, Gotoh, Yamoto, [/i]etc. I was told by a former Fender Rep that the necks were made one place and the bodies another, while the electronics were made in yet another. I was told that the contract with [i]Yamoto[/i] stated if any major subcontractor was to be changed the weaning process would have to take place (MIJ to CIJ). They call it the “Squire countdown.” Since [i]Fuji[/i] was pressing hard to get the Epiphone contract, a change was made. [i]Kawi[/i] was moving the bulk of their piano building to a new facility in China, and would also be making their own “harp” frames there. This freed up a lot of space in the plant. [i]Yamara[/i] and [i]Gotoh[/i] retooled to handle the woodwork and finish aspects of the guitars—thus the [b]Crafted in Japan[/b] line was created.[/font][/size][/i][i][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"[/font][/size][/i][/quote]
Eh, okay. Nice theory. Bit flawed though. One of the names he mentions isn't a company, it's a brand name, not owned or operated by FujiGen. Another is a company located around 80 miles from FujiGen's base. In fact, it's a whole lot easier. FujiGen built the original MIJ instruments, but subcontracted assembly/finishing work to Terada and full assembly work to Dyna during periods of peak production. It was these fully-assembled Dyna instruments for which the CIJ designation was used. FujiGen also subcontracted Atlansia, but this was wholly and solely for necks. After the original Fender-FujiGen contract ended both Dyna and Tokai were contracted, and both factories used the CIJ designation. Some suggest this was due to a contractual stipulation in the original Fender-FujiGen contract, but it could as easily be as a result of Dyna simply using the designation system it previously operated. The MIJ designation first resurfaced when some production was subcontracted to FujiGen under the Fender-Dyna/Tokai contract.

[Lozz196]

I`m not sure of the difference, but all I know is, they make very good basses (which may seem a bit of a daft comment from me, seeing as I`m selling one).

Edited February 12, 2013 by Lozz196

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1360671808' post='1974227']
I`m not sure of the difference, but all I know is, they make very good basses (which may seem a bit of a daft comment from me, seeing as I`m selling one).
[/quote] dunno, If i were selling one I think it would be a good comment. I mean if I were after a white P bass, tort guard and upgraded USA pickups... I know where I would go!

[mckendrick]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1360668739' post='1974158']
Eh, okay. Nice theory. Bit flawed though. One of the names he mentions isn't a company, it's a brand name, not owned or operated by FujiGen. Another is a company located around 80 miles from FujiGen's base. In fact, it's a whole lot easier. FujiGen built the original MIJ instruments, but subcontracted assembly/finishing work to Terada and full assembly work to Dyna during periods of peak production. It was these fully-assembled Dyna instruments for which the CIJ designation was used. FujiGen also subcontracted Atlansia, but this was wholly and solely for necks. After the original Fender-FujiGen contract ended both Dyna and Tokai were contracted, and both factories used the CIJ designation. Some suggest this was due to a contractual stipulation in the original Fender-FujiGen contract, but it could as easily be as a result of Dyna simply using the designation system it previously operated. The MIJ designation first resurfaced when some production was subcontracted to FujiGen under the Fender-Dyna/Tokai contract.
[/quote]
Thanks for that. I love an expert me. Particularly ones that start their reply's with mildly derogatory openers.... then go on to say more or less the same thing.

[noelk27]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1360679246' post='1974457']Thanks for that. I love an expert me. Particularly ones that start their reply's with mildly derogatory openers.... then go on to say more or less the same thing. [/quote]
Couldn't be arsed pointing out the errors. But, leaving aside he can't spell (Fugi [sic]), Matsumoto is a city, not an island. Yamato is a brand name owned by Tombo, not FujiGen. Gotoh, one makes hardware, the other makes pickups, neither has ever done woodworking. The list could go on. If it's your site: do some research.

[cocco]

Spelling.

[rednose200]

Well I have had 30 - yes thats right, 30 CIJ Fenders through my hands over the years and not one of them was any less than excellent. The only one I have now is a CIJ white Jaguar Deluxe that they made specially for me and it is just superb. The MIJ's tend to have been manufactureed earlier than the CIJ's.