Kick back amps as a monitor / better ways of hearing on stage?

[dodge_bass]

I did a gig recently where the venue didn't provide a bass amp so had to DI into the desk and go through a wedge on stage. Amazing - I could hear myself really clearly, the stage volume was lower overall and the sound guy wasn't battling my amp. Neither were my trousers being seriously flappy whilst my ears were struggling to hear which is what usually happens.

My Q is:

Does anyone use a kickback style amp, in front of them like a stage monitor rather than behind them when gigging? Would there be any reason not to do this? Any sound engineers have any thoughts on this? It would be unconventional sure but hey!

Thanks

Ian

[Guest MoJo]

Contemplating the exact same thing for my party band using my Zoom B3 as a preamp into the desk

[Phil Starr]

Actually this is nothing unusual. Lots of people use a Sansamp and a monitor. I've been using a Hartke kickback for my onstage sound for about a year. I bought it to do folky stuff and to use as a practice amp but you've got to try it so i took it along to one gig. I roll the bass back on the hartke to give it a bit more headroom and then compensate with a little extra bass through the PA. You get to hear the deep notes from the PA and having an articulate little speaker behind you pointing straight at your ears means no trouble hearing rather better than a conventional stack. I don't really need to feel the bass, just a taste thing I suppose. The biggest bonus is that everyone else turns down as a result and there's far less stuff from the backline going through the vocal mics.

Got to be worth a try, there's more than one way of doing things.

[dodge_bass]

Cool. Have you ever used it in front of you tho rather than behind? More like a stage wedge / fold back?

[Phil Starr]

No, there's no reason why not though, other than we play a lot of small pubs with little space so against a wall is usually best. I tend to put it behind our drummer who likes to hear a lot of bass.

[6v6]

[quote name='dodge_bass' timestamp='1360629123' post='1973848']
Cool. Have you ever used it in front of you tho rather than behind? More like a stage wedge / fold back?
[/quote]

I use a Hartke kickback 12 for gigging (small pubs) and rehearsal at the moment and it's pretty good, and previously I had a kickback-style Beringher amp.

If you're going to the PA via DI I think they are a pretty good solution, but I personally wouldn't put mine in front of me because then the drummer wouldn't be able to hear me very well, and also because we have wedge monitors for the PA, so we can just send a bit of bass through those if required to fill in on larger stages.

Edit - forgot to mention IMO/IME putting these small amps on a crate or chair when on stage is a better solution than using the kickback feature, then you can get better projection and it's easier to get the amp in a position where you and the drummer can hear it. Kickback mode is very good for practice/quiet-rehearsal tho.

Edited February 12, 2013 by 6v6

[Guest bassman7755]

Last gig I played I used my Midget-T perched on a bar stool as a monitor and had my RH450 DI-ed into our PA. Of course it helps that our PA has two Compacts as the "subs" . I'm thinking about modifying a folding guitar stand I have to use it as an angled stand for the Midget.

Edited February 12, 2013 by bassman7755

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1360628506' post='1973836']
Actually this is nothing unusual. Lots of people use a Sansamp and a monitor. I've been using a Hartke kickback for my onstage sound for about a year. I bought it to do folky stuff and to use as a practice amp but you've got to try it so i took it along to one gig. I roll the bass back on the hartke to give it a bit more headroom and then compensate with a little extra bass through the PA. You get to hear the deep notes from the PA and having an articulate little speaker behind you pointing straight at your ears means no trouble hearing rather better than a conventional stack. I don't really need to feel the bass, just a taste thing I suppose. The biggest bonus is that everyone else turns down as a result and there's far less stuff from the backline going through the vocal mics.

Got to be worth a try, there's more than one way of doing things.
[/quote]

Where theres room, any reason not to use a normal head and 4X10 + a kickback driven from the line out ? I like to feel plenty of Bass, but in pubs with only a vocals PA I cant always hear myself, or if I turn it up I cant hear the guitar.

Edited February 12, 2013 by BILL POSTERS

[lefrash]

My first amp was a kickback style 12" thing. I think it was behringer! I actually really liked the tone of it, but at the time I was only really doing pub gigs with vocal PAs so DI was never really an option... hence I had to go get a bigger amp! I only ever used it behind me, and never sitting where the monitors would be, I dont think I'd like that actually - I think I'm too used to the bass flapping my trousers from the rear!

[Toddy]

[i]Yeah, this is a good approach,,, many times I've had an amp on stage, running pretty quiet just to have something behind me,, but most of the bass and mix thru a good monitor,,I love it, engineers like it also,, nothing worse if you have everything running to front of house (out of the pa) than having some loud box on stage bleeding into the FOH mix,, I would happily ditch the amp in these situations.,, talking about good monitoring mind ! [/i]

[Len_derby]

I've used by Roland 100w Cube as a stage monitor a few times. Works just fine.

[Kiwi]

I think angled cabs are a great solution for small stages where the mix is 100% through FOH. GK make bass specific 'kick back' cabs and they're very good. But also very heavy. I've been trying to find a company who will make a lightweight version, for the last 6 years but with no success. So I'll eventually make one or two myself one day - based on the GK 1x15 but with lightweight ply and more bracing. Once my life has settled down and I have some garage space.

[Dood]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360695334' post='1974925']
I think angled cabs are a great solution for small stages where the mix is 100% through FOH. GK make bass specific 'kick back' cabs and they're very good. But also very heavy. I've been trying to find a company who will make a lightweight version, for the last 6 years but with no success. So I'll eventually make one or two myself one day - based on the GK 1x15 but with lightweight ply and more bracing. Once my life has settled down and I have some garage space.
[/quote]

Kiwi, have you seen GreenBoy's Fearless F115 cabinet? It's not an active one, but it's a full range solution in a kickback sized box. I really like this idea.

http://www.facebook.com/fEarfulbass?fref=ts

There's also the F112 that features 12" speakers too:

[Toddy]

Didn't Mesa Boogie make a cool wedge bass amp,,, 400 watt buster all valve??,,,,,its in an old bassist magazine somewhere,,

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1360692016' post='1974842']
Where theres room, any reason not to use a normal head and 4X10 + a kickback driven from the line out ? I like to feel plenty of Bass, but in pubs with only a vocals PA I cant always hear myself, or if I turn it up I cant hear the guitar.
[/quote]

Hi Bill,
the arguments about getting rid of the conventional stack are all to do with reducing the on-stage volume. There are three good reasons to do this and some good reasons for using a stack, so I'm not telling anyone what to do, just looking at options.

three reasons;

You really don't want the vocal mics picking up anything other than vocals to get a good mix. A loud backline can be louder than the singer even though they are closer

Excessive sound levels will damage your hearing, eventually you won't be able to play at all

At high sound levels muscles in our ears contract to protect the inner ear so we hear less detail, maybe that's why you are struggling to hear everything.

Of course if there is nothing to beat that adrenaline rush of really loud bass then stick in the ear defenders and rock, that's good too.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1360696471' post='1974956']
Kiwi, have you seen GreenBoy's Fearless F115 cabinet? It's not an active one, but it's a full range solution in a kickback sized box. I really like this idea.

[url="http://www.facebook.com/fEarfulbass?fref=ts"]http://www.facebook....fulbass?fref=ts[/url]

There's also the F112 that features 12" speakers too:


[/quote]

Now that is interesting! Thanks! Last time I looked on their site there weren't any angled cabs. But that was probably a year ago. Making it active wouldn't be difficult with the right modules and cooling.

[rOB]

Can I suggest an amp stand? Lift your amp nearer to your ears and angle it up like a wedge. No need for a new cab.

I use my mini rig on an amp stand as a monitor and di into the pa.

Just a suggestion ;-)

[Kiwi]

They vibrate too much on a hollow stage and move about. The angle of the cab still isn't pointed at my ears.

[rOB]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360738865' post='1975548']
They vibrate too much on a hollow stage and move about. The angle of the cab still isn't pointed at my ears.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Works for me. Horses for courses.

[Kiwi]

I agree. This horse is 194cm tall which doesn't help.

[Ba55me15ter]

Hi Dodge,
I did just that for years in Spangler - I really don't know why it hasn't caught on more!
I use either a JBL Eon 15" PA cab, or a SWR Bass Monitor 12 (http://www.swramps.com/en-GB/support/vintage.php/) powered by my Mark Bass SA450. The low end isn't huge, but then I find that helps with pitching - leave that to the PA.
Played with the house amp at Hoochie the other week and remembered why I did it!

[dodge_bass]

Cool - good to know someone has tried it. Think I'm gonna lay my hands on a cab and give it a go! I don't usually get a stage wedge anyway so there's nothing usually in front / to the side of me on stage.

[rOB]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360749140' post='1975659']
I agree. This horse is 194cm tall which doesn't help.
[/quote]
More of a stallion than a pony eh?

[Kiwi]

Neigh.

[JPS]

I have used a Hartke Kickback 15" for a few years. Great amp when it's not being pushed, however, I've found that anywhere above about halfway and it struggles and the sound becomes overly harsh (perhaps it's the nature of the aluminium cone). I'm now back to lugging my Trace Elliott amp and Warwick cab/s around I'm afraid