4x10 vs 2x10 and 1x15 vs 2x12

[Kiwi]

[quote name='chris_pokkuri' post='205068' date='May 23 2008, 03:58 PM']Hmmm, now I am thinking maybe a 2x12 and a 2x10. Anyone have any experience playing with this setup?[/quote]
Right now, it would be my ideal set up as a pair of neo cabs.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_pokkuri' post='205068' date='May 23 2008, 10:58 AM']Hmmm, now I am thinking maybe a 2x12 and a 2x10. Anyone have any experience playing with this setup?[/quote]Never mix different drivers operating within the same bandwidth.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='205111' date='May 23 2008, 05:03 PM']Never mix different drivers operating within the same bandwidth.[/quote]
I was gonna say that but thought I had flamed this thread enough

[OldGit]

[quote name='pete.young' post='203987' date='May 21 2008, 11:44 PM']4x10 + 1x15 . It's the IBM of bass rigs.[/quote]


Ha ha big, unweildy and lacking in finesse or flexibility? Surely not! (I survived 15 years selling IBM stuff as a 30 something)
but yes, that is the traditional way, if you discount 1x18 cabs of yesteryear.

Things have moved on , though, with Di and PA support, clever design like Bill's boxes and the boutique cabs, Neos' etc.

So it's 2x12 for me in one or two cabs.

[xgsjx]

[quote]Never mix different drivers operating within the same bandwidth.[/quote]

Would that include for example two 10's of the same & one 15 of another brand, or is 10's in a different bandwidth from the 15?

[OldGit]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='204070' date='May 22 2008, 09:05 AM']Similarly if you compared a Bergantino HS210, Berg AE210, MAG 210, ABM 210, MB 210 front port, MB210 rear port, shiny Hartke 210, BFM Omni 210 and an Acme 210 they will all sound different.[/quote]


You don't have to, Tom Bowlus did that very thing
[url="http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-1079165.html"]here on Talkbass[/url]

[chris_pokkuri]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='205111' date='May 23 2008, 05:03 PM']Never mix different drivers operating within the same bandwidth.[/quote]

Whys that? What happens to the sound?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_pokkuri' post='205139' date='May 23 2008, 12:43 PM']Whys that? What happens to the sound?[/quote]
Since different drivers will have differing responses the result is that they will fight each other as much as they augment each other. The right way to do it is to use different size drivers each within its own enclosure, or compartment within a single enclosure, each optimized to operate as well as possible within a smaller segment of the audio bandwidth, so that their combined responses enhance each other.

[Lfalex v1.1]

At the risk of getting shouted at;

I'll play through anything I can hear [s]over the rest of the band[/s] well in the stage sound.
All the technical and sonic nuances tend to get a bit lost in some rehearsal and stage situations because of the sheer number of variables involved;

Distances from room boundaries
Room construction
Floor construction
Room furnishings
Player Distance from rig / monitors

Live, most of us feed a house PA via D.I. anyway, right? If you're lucky, you get a bit in the monitors. I often wonder if In-Ear isn't the way to go. Saves all the cabinet wrestling!!

Yes, rehersals are different again. Then I guess the ability to pulverise the rest of your band with a monster stack has its uses!

Just for the record, I own a 1x15, 4x10 and 2x10 cabinets.
I mix and match them according to how big the gig is. Single cab gives me 150w into an 8 ohm load. Two gives me about 300w into the resulting 4 ohm load, plus gains from more drivers etc.
For practice at home, I use closed-back headphones via an Ampeg SVP-Pro into a small mixing desk.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='205198' date='May 23 2008, 07:40 PM']At the risk of getting shouted at;

I'll play through anything I can hear [s]over the rest of the band[/s] well in the stage sound.
All the technical and sonic nuances tend to get a bit lost in some rehearsal and stage situations because of the sheer number of variables involved[/quote]
But at least if it sounds like crap, you'll be able to make sure its efficiently produced.

[Adrenochrome]

I use a 2x10 and/or 1x15. It's a very flexible set-up as I play everything from tiny pubs to quite large clubs and festivals. My 2x10 is small and light (I can carry it with 1 hand) so why use more in a small pub when I'm going through a reasonable PA?

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='203915' date='May 21 2008, 08:43 PM']None of the above. But if I had to settle for commercial cabs I'd use two 2x10s, vertically stacked.[/quote]

I noticed a similar post of yours over on TB. What is it about this vertically stacked format that's preferrable to a single 4x10 cab? I've read about close-coupling PA subs to increase perceived bass, and I think I understand it, but I'm not clear on how 4 vertical 10s will be that much different to 2 pairs of 10s? The idea interests me - I'm currently considering a Peavey 4x10, but with our typical "stage" being pretty tight, the smaller footprint of a 2x10 on its end would be a great advantage over the bigger 4x10.


[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='205111' date='May 23 2008, 04:03 PM']Never mix different drivers operating within the same bandwidth.[/quote]

That flies in the face of the ubiquitous 4x10 on top of a 1x15. What gives? I doubt many of those rigs were/are bi-amped.


[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='205178' date='May 23 2008, 06:16 PM']Since different drivers will have differing responses the result is that they will fight each other as much as they augment each other. The right way to do it is to use different size drivers each within its own enclosure, or compartment within a single enclosure, each optimized to operate as well as possible within a smaller segment of the audio bandwidth, so that their combined responses enhance each other.[/quote]

You mean like a bi- or tri-amped PA system, where everything below 100Hz (or whatever) goes to the subs (designed for those frequencies), and everything above goes to the mains (again, designed for [i]those[/i] frequencies)? Should the "perfect" bass be bi-amped?


Mark

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='717191' date='Jan 18 2010, 09:43 PM']I noticed a similar post of yours over on TB. What is it about this vertically stacked format that's preferrable to a single 4x10 cab? I've read about close-coupling PA subs to increase perceived bass, and I think I understand it, but I'm not clear on how 4 vertical 10s will be that much different to 2 pairs of 10s? The idea interests me - I'm currently considering a Peavey 4x10, but with our typical "stage" being pretty tight, the smaller footprint of a 2x10 on its end would be a great advantage over the bigger 4x10.




That flies in the face of the ubiquitous 4x10 on top of a 1x15. What gives? I doubt many of those rigs were/are bi-amped.




You mean like a bi- or tri-amped PA system, where everything below 100Hz (or whatever) goes to the subs (designed for those frequencies), and everything above goes to the mains (again, designed for [i]those[/i] frequencies)? Should the "perfect" bass be bi-amped?


Mark[/quote]

Vertical stacking drivers gives better horizontal dispersion and reduced vertical dispersion which is advantageous in typical gig spaces where your audience are spread out in front of you on a roughly flat plane. 4x10s arranged in a square will have a more inconsistent off-axis response than vertical stacked. Plus as mentioned you get the top cab up at head height, which is useful for those of us that don't have ears in our arses.

Technically for hi-fi reproduction you shouldn't mix different drivers as each will have a different characteristic group delay causing cancellations and reinforcement at various frequencies. In actual fact in practice it's often not a problem for bass guitar as many of us aren't after a 'hi-fi' sound anyway. The bass guitar's sound is in any case inherently 'artificial'. If you want to have a flat frequency response with multiple cabs then bi- or triamping is good. It also has the advantage that you can get better clean headroom for the high-frequency transients, and active crossovers are typically better than cheap passive designs. The downside is if you're playing close to the cabs you can end up hearing a disproportionate amount of just one of the outputs. Also the added cost/complexity of the set-up. Personally I don't think it's worth it in most cases for bass, though obviously for PA systems it's a different story.

[stevie]

[quote name='ste_m3' post='203968' date='May 21 2008, 10:06 PM']To be quite honest Mr Bass Ferret, most of what you say is merely belitteling someone else, and thus to anyone with any sense, meaningless.[/quote]
I have to disagree. Mir Bass Ferret has a point. Everyone is going to vote for what they've got. Obvious, innit?

[thodrik]

I'm using a 2x10 and 1x15 set up. I love it but I feel its a bit of overkill for some gigs! I have seen a few 2x10 and 2x12 used together. I would like to try that out. I'm thinking for smaller gigs a 2x12 is a better all round cab than a 2x10 or a 1x15. All things considered, I would really rather have a 4x12 or 4x15 (a couple of 2x15s would do)

My brain is tired though as I've been reading uni stuff all night, so logic isn't running high.

[Conan]

The more I read these threads, the more I think "I've been doing it wrong all these years"! On the other hand, apart from comments like "turn that bloody bass down!", I've rarely had negative feedback on my sound. I think its true that most people's ears just aren't all that able to separate sounds, frequencies, etc - especially in the typical gig scenario (i.e. when alcohol consumption and sheer volume make their own demands on the aural sense!).

My old Trace 4x10 and 1x15 combination always sounded OK to me - but then I never A/B'ed it against anything else.

Of the options above I would select 2x10 + 1x15. Mainly for height I think - as others have mentioned about rectally-positioned hearing organs!!

But then, I can't even decide which is the way forward on my own set-up! It;s easy to advise others!

[allighatt0r]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='717473' date='Jan 19 2010, 08:31 AM']Who was this bass_ferret chap and why was he banned?[/quote]

Now that's a whole different kettle of fish!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Conan' post='717464' date='Jan 19 2010, 08:07 AM']....The more I read these threads, the more I think "I've been doing it wrong all these years"! On the other hand, apart from comments like "turn that bloody bass down!", I've rarely had negative feedback on my sound....[/quote]
There are/were several people here who would have you believe there is only one way to do things and if you’re doing it differently you’re not making a good sound. Even if you are!!

Everything to them is black and white. Plainly that’s wrong because when you’re playing everything is a shade of grey! You're not playing in a sound lab and you'll get more problems from an acoustically bad room or stage and your band mates than you'll ever get from "breaking" any of these "rules". To be told that you've got it totally wrong and you sounded crap after satisfactorily playing bass for the last 20 years should tell you how much notice you need to take of these "rules".

The ONLY rule is that you should follow is; “Does it sound good?”, and your ears will tell you all about that. If a 410 and 115 sounds good then it IS good. That’s why this has been the rig of choice for so many for so long.

Recently we have moved into a new age of speaker and cab design and many of the old “rules” may not apply. So it is possible to get more bass out of a modern 410 than you could out of an old 115 and more tone and volume out of a modern 210 than you could out of an old 410. I've mixed speakers sizes and even manufacturers and, well would you believe it, my sound is great. I know it and I've been told by many others.

Just have confidence to trust your ears over the “advice” of others.

[Conan]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='717473' date='Jan 19 2010, 08:31 AM']I bet Bill and Alex must be heartily sick of saying the size of a driver tells you how big it is; the "traditional" stack is a triumph of marketing over acoustics etc etc.[/quote]

In the same way that "dietary experts" must be heartily sick of telling people to drink less alcohol, exercise more and eat better. But do the majority heed their advice?!

Bass players choose gear for a variety of reasons. It may be the set-up/brand used by their hero, a brilliant deal may fall into their lap, they may act on recommendations (whether they are good or bad!) and they may even believe the marketting hype!

At then end of the day, if they are satisfied with their sound and like their gear, I really don't see it as a big problem. I feel that there is a certain amount of OCD underpinning the opinions of some users, and possibly an amount of evangelism from some recent converts!!

It all makes interesting reading, but for some of us who operate in the "real world" of maybe a few gigs a month, average sized cars, finicky band-mates and limited finances - certain gear choices will always remain aspirational... Which is no bad thing! Sometimes fantasies are better left as fantasies.

But that's a whole different story!!

[stevie]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='717473' date='Jan 19 2010, 08:31 AM']Who was this bass_ferret chap and why was he banned?[/quote]
Yes, the people need to know! Funny, I've only just noticed how old this thread is.

[chris_b]

[quote name='stevie' post='717524' date='Jan 19 2010, 09:51 AM']....Yes, the people need to know!....[/quote]
Just be grateful he doesn't live next door!

[lojo]

I played bass regularly during the 90s in small and large venues, before giving up for around 7 years (kids!)

During my playing spell, I rarely questioned my rigs or anything I was given to play through, i just plugged in and set the eq as best I could

On my recent return to playing, I now only play in pub covers bands and sometimes to the man and his dog, but strangely I am obsessed with my sound ?

Whilst I love the geeky side of bass tech, you tube clips and checking out gear specs, I am sure we just used to play more and think less

Not that thinking and fiddling around with sound and settings is bad, it just never used to be such a big part of it for me as it is now

[krispn]

The only sensible advice you can get from an internet forum is go try out as many cabs/amp's basses or what ever it is your trying to get info on.

There may well be scientific reasons why some set ups wont work, many may have personal reasons and know why a particular set up didnt work for them but until you try it out and hear for yourself how you gonna know?

Its a noble thing to try to give and get the advice of peers on a good set up and most people will try and guide you in relation to your request and their interpretation of it but really its like saying Im thinking of painting my wall red - any advice on a good shade?

Oh I have this shade called September Sunrise which is amazing (hyperbollic's) but my room is south facing and I only have 'daylight' lightbulbs so that plays a part or my shade is called September Sunset and about two months a year in summer its striking but the rest of the year I am tormented with changing it and then bang its those two months again....and it beautiful

We often think that everyone else has better tone that we do or think we should have the latest piece of tone defining kit - Keeping up with the Tones' I call it and Im totally guilty of it too and have lost more hours drooling over gear and sound files too.

Make peace with your tone, set everything flat and just re work it. Find a cab that works for your ears/back/boot/tone/style or whatever and just be glad we're not designers or we'd never get past selecting the font to use let alone rant about it

Just my opinion of course now what should I replace my ampeg 410 with in a downsizing effort 210 212 or 115

[Mr.T]

^^^^^^ What a great couple of posts! ^^^^^^

I played for 20+ years with very little 'knowledge' of 'how' I got my sound.... and it was none the worse for it.
Over the past 12 months it has almost become an obsession.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='718922' date='Jan 20 2010, 12:59 PM']Its easy to get sucked in to all the science and forget about how it sounds; and how how it sounds is after all very important. [i][b]But then again, how many people by cabs purely based on power handling rather than how loud the cab is or how it sounds[/b][/i] If you are happy with your rig then it would be ridiculous to sell it all cos the cabs dont match. But if you are buying a new rig then matching cabs should be considered and auditioned. If you want to make your rig louder, and are happy with the sound, then adding another cab the same is probably the best option.

There are a lot of "what should I buy" and "how do I sound like ..." threads on here, and frankly many of the responses are less than helpful because the answers are "try everything and buy what you like best" and "learn how to play like..." [/quote]

To the part in bold italics: I'd suggest that in this day of internet shopping, there are many people that buy all sorts of products unseen/unheard, but rely on manufacturer websites, review websites and forums to glean info & advice. It's rare (but it's a fact) that local music shops will be as cheap as the big online megastores.

The "what should I buy" question can never really return any definitive answer, but somewhere in the various replies may lurk something helpful, so I believe the question should usually be given some space.

Another plus with (or reason not to fear) this kind of buying is that these days, even if you do buy a truly crap product, it's unlikely that you'll be stuck with it, with three-year warranties and no-quibble return policies being typical with most on-line stores, not to mention existing distance-selling laws.


Mark