JazzyMan MiltyMan bass. (More is better!)

[MiltyG565]

Aye, can you guess what it is from the title?

This is the project i want to start next. But i'm having a little trouble deciding the fine details, but more on that after i explain the general idea.

Ok, so as you might expect, it's a pairing of Jazz bass and MusicMan bass of sorts. Basically, it's a Jazz bass, with a MusicMan pickup between the 2 Jazz pickups. (I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.)

That's the general idea. I want it to have lots of mids, the MM pup in series should take care of this. The Jazz pickups should pick up the rest of the bass and treble. But what pickups do i use? Well, I was thinking of the SD SMB4A for the MM, which is a 3 coil (God knows why 3) alnico pickup, hot wound. LINK!- [url="http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/bass/music-man/4string/smb4a_5a_3coil/"]http://www.seymourdu...smb4a_5a_3coil/[/url]

For the Jazz pickups, i'm thinking of the SD Hot Stacks, which are stacked humbucking Jazz pickups, wound hot, which should give good treble response. LINK! [url="http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/bass/pickups-for-jaz/4string/stkj2_hot_for_j/"]http://www.seymourdu...tkj2_hot_for_j/[/url]

Now i'm looking for input on this. The body has to be built too. I'm thinking Ash, because i have no concerns about weight, but harder woods give a more bassy tone, and lighter woods have more treble. I would say Ash was a soft working hardwood. Definitely doesn't have the same density as something like mahogany, or oak (an oak bass would be fantastic!), but not light and airy like alder. So should sound pretty bassy/middy.

Things that i absolutely can't decide on- Controls and preamp. I'm not entirely sure if i should fit a preamp or not. And i like to keep controls to a minimum. I don't like coil switches, because it limits what you can do. Oh yes, i also want a parallel/series switch for the Jazz pups.

What do you guys think? Anything there sound fairly unreasonable?

Edited February 15, 2013 by MiltyG565

[MiltyG565]

Also just thought- it should be string-through!

This is going to cost alot more than i want it too

[Wil]

I've never seen a bass with that pickup config before... Sounds really interesting! Closest thing I can think of would the the Fender Urge basses I suppose.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1360786420' post='1976595']
I've never seen a bass with that pickup config before... Sounds really interesting! Closest thing I can think of would the the Fender Urge basses I suppose.
[/quote]

Lot's of people have said this. It just means you could do musicman stuff on your jazz, and give it that more middy fatness.

[MiltyG565]

Alright, so looking for recommendations on timber suppliers. Looking for a nice piece of ash. Well preferably a long piece, or a couple of shorter pieces.

Going to start the build soon hopefully.

[MiltyG565]

I've been thinking about how the electronics in this would work. So basically, what i have got, and this is in no way set in stone, but to make it work without there being too much fuss, i have compromised on this a bit.

So basically, there would be a volume control for the MM pickup, and a volume control for the jazz pickups (just one) with a pull pot which will switch between series a parallel (but it will still only have one volume pot when in parallel). Then the preamp will be bass and treble boost only. I think that having a mid boost wouldn't be that beneficial as the idea of the MM pickup and the series wiring is for more mids and fatness, so i compromised and decided it wasn't entirely necessary. I've also decided that having a bass or treble cut isn't entirely beneficial either. I'm choosing the pickups specifically to be hot and bright, so why even bother trying to dial that out? The only thing that i would do if it was too bright is have the treble sitting very low, and have the bass rolled up quite a bit to even it out.

So there are 4 knobs on the bass (possible even 3 if the preamp is stacked knobs), which is perfect! Without those changes, we were looking at 6/7 knobs! And that just isn't entirely appealing to me.

I think this is starting to take shape nicely... in my mind.

Still have to decide on colours and scratch plate shapes and all that other stuff.

[mcnach]

SMB4A comes in standard 2 coil as well as 3 coil... The 3 coil could maybe be interested if you want it hum-free after a coil split...
I really like the SMB4A, great pickup.

I'd definitely consider a midsweep module from John East... even leaving the bass passive and just using the midsweep... It's really versatile, and if you like to control your mids...

[LukeFRC]

A friend did the same thing with his pickups, he had a yamaha with jazz pups and stuck a MM inbetween just to see what it would do. He seemed happy with it.

One though... while theoretically two jazz and a MM pup would give "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]give a great, throaty (steady on) sound, full of mids, bass and treble" it's possibly not going to work that simply, in the same way a jazz with both pups on has a slight mid cut, you may find you have all sorts of different frequencies being cut out(is combing the correct phrase?) also the way a pickup is contsructed has a massive effect on how it 'sees' the string. A humbucker with fat wide poles like a MM pickup sees the string differently to say a jazz pickup where the string goes between two magnets.
Personally if I was going to have two jazz pups and a MM then I would go for jazz pups like the Delanos with the fat poles so they all were working off the same idea. But then I doubt personally I would ever run them all on at the same time.[/font][/color]
[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]Also... stacked, humbucking, overwound jazz pups... could possibly give the opposite of "great treble response" ... ? that's what I would have thought, though what kinda great are you looking for.[/color][/font]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But... reading what you write again... you want a throaty sound fill of bass mids treble.... so given that you are wanting more of the whole tonal spectrum... what do you want? My thought would be that a proper choice of woods, construction [/font][/color][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]technique and pickups and pickup placement would get you close to your sonic goals easier than a complex set up of J-MM-J ... what do you want it to sound similar too? what else bass wise gets into that sonic territory? what kinda music will you play with it? [/color][/font]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360704682' post='1975220']

Now i'm looking for input on this. The body has to be built too. I'm thinking Ash, because i have no concerns about weight, but harder woods give a more bassy tone, and [b]lighter woods have more treble[/b]. I would say Ash was a soft working hardwood. Definitely doesn't have the same density as something like mahogany, or oak (an oak bass would be fantastic!), but not light and airy like alder. So should sound pretty bassy/middy.

[/quote] err... if we accept that woods affect tone... I don't think lightness in and of itself give more treble. I had a fender '75ri, but made in a lighterwieght alder, it was darker than the brighter and snappier tone of the traditional ash '75ri. Things sound different but I don't think that their is a corralation between weight and brightness.
Also wood weight varies depending on where in the tree it comes from, you can find some very light mahogany, ash, alder, whatever... and some heavy as fook stuff.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360704682' post='1975220']
Hopefully all that together should give a great, throaty (steady on) sound, full of mids, bass and treble (respectively).
[/quote]

I don't think what you have suggested will give you what you are looking for.

Choose either bolt on or thru-neck depending on your taste. But you'll need to make sure the neck is just about stiff enough, not too stiff if you want mids to be prominent. A stiff fingerboard will help keep things rigid if you opt for a higher proportion of softwoods in the neck but you'll need a super stiff spine. Maybe consider laminates of mahogany for mids and maple for rigidity and brightness with a nice and thick maple or ebony fingerboard. The body can be mahogany or alder. Chambering can tune things a little.

For a broad frequency response in pickups, think about piezos and add a MM humbucker in the stingray position for extra bottom oomph, attack and graunch. You can coil tap it or make it series/parallel for variety. Just run it through a preamp with an input buffer to even out voltage changes with different coil combinations.

Try a stingray with piezos out at a bassbash sometime just to see how you feel about it. If you don't like that combination, you can always have single coils added later.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360913119' post='1978170']
I don't think what you have suggested will give you what you are looking for.

Choose either bolt on or thru-neck depending on your taste. But you'll need to make sure the neck is just about stiff enough, not too stiff if you want mids to be prominent. A stiff fingerboard will help keep things rigid if you opt for a higher proportion of softwoods in the neck but you'll need a super stiff spine. Maybe consider laminates of mahogany for mids and maple for rigidity and brightness with a nice and thick maple or ebony fingerboard. The body can be mahogany or alder. Chambering can tune things a little.

For a broad frequency response in pickups, think about piezos and add a MM humbucker in the stingray position for extra bottom oomph, attack and graunch. You can coil tap it or make it series/parallel for variety. Just run it through a preamp with an input buffer to even out voltage changes with different coil combinations.

Try a stingray with piezos out at a bassbash sometime just to see how you feel about it. If you don't like that combination, you can always have single coils added later.
[/quote] ooh that's an good idea. I was thinking more towards an L2000 or similar pickup setup - but I guess it depends what kinda sound the OP wants.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360913119' post='1978170']
I don't think what you have suggested will give you what you are looking for.

Choose either bolt on or thru-neck depending on your taste. But you'll need to make sure the neck is just about stiff enough, not too stiff if you want mids to be prominent. A stiff fingerboard will help keep things rigid if you opt for a higher proportion of softwoods in the neck but you'll need a super stiff spine. Maybe consider laminates of mahogany for mids and maple for rigidity and brightness with a nice and thick maple or ebony fingerboard. The body can be mahogany or alder. Chambering can tune things a little.

For a broad frequency response in pickups, think about piezos and add a MM humbucker in the stingray position for extra bottom oomph, attack and graunch. You can coil tap it or make it series/parallel for variety. Just run it through a preamp with an input buffer to even out voltage changes with different coil combinations.

Try a stingray with piezos out at a bassbash sometime just to see how you feel about it. If you don't like that combination, you can always have single coils added later.
[/quote]

Great suggestions, thanks for that, but i'm trying to keep it simple in terms of build and controls.

I think for now, i'll just have the Jazz with a MM pickup in between. And if needs be, refine it after that. Maybe make a MKII?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360889715' post='1978115']
A friend did the same thing with his pickups, he had a yamaha with jazz pups and stuck a MM inbetween just to see what it would do. He seemed happy with it.

One though... while theoretically two jazz and a MM pup would give "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]give a great, throaty (steady on) sound, full of mids, bass and treble" it's possibly not going to work that simply, in the same way a jazz with both pups on has a slight mid cut, you may find you have all sorts of different frequencies being cut out(is combing the correct phrase?) also the way a pickup is contsructed has a massive effect on how it 'sees' the string. A humbucker with fat wide poles like a MM pickup sees the string differently to say a jazz pickup where the string goes between two magnets.
Personally if I was going to have two jazz pups and a MM then I would go for jazz pups like the Delanos with the fat poles so they all were working off the same idea. But then I doubt personally I would ever run them all on at the same time.[/font][/color]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Also... stacked, humbucking, overwound jazz pups... could possibly give the opposite of "great treble response" ... ? that's what I would have thought, though what kinda great are you looking for.[/color][/font]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But... reading what you write again... you want a throaty sound fill of bass mids treble.... so given that you are wanting more of the whole tonal spectrum... what do you want? My thought would be that a proper choice of woods, construction [/font][/color][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]technique and pickups and pickup placement would get you close to your sonic goals easier than a complex set up of J-MM-J ... what do you want it to sound similar too? what else bass wise gets into that sonic territory? what kinda music will you play with it? [/color][/font]

err... if we accept that woods affect tone... I don't think lightness in and of itself give more treble. I had a fender '75ri, but made in a lighterwieght alder, it was darker than the brighter and snappier tone of the traditional ash '75ri. Things sound different but I don't think that their is a corralation between weight and brightness.
Also wood weight varies depending on where in the tree it comes from, you can find some very light mahogany, ash, alder, whatever... and some heavy as fook stuff.
[/quote]

Cheers for the suggestions, i'll probably re-read this a couple of times over the next few days. Like i said though, i'll try this, then refine it if needs be.

Cheers

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360932873' post='1978496']
Cheers for the suggestions, i'll probably re-read this a couple of times over the next few days. Like i said though, i'll try this, then refine it if needs be.

Cheers
[/quote] sorry... I kinda pulled everything you were saying to pieces.... I do think you would do better blethering on here as what you want tonewise and what you're after and see what the suggestions are.... I'm no expert but i have a feeling that the pup set up you're after may not give you what you want...

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360944675' post='1978827']
sorry... I kinda pulled everything you were saying to pieces.... I do think you would do better blethering on here as what you want tonewise and what you're after and see what the suggestions are.... I'm no expert but i have a feeling that the pup set up you're after may not give you what you want...
[/quote]

It's no trouble, it's good to hear an honest opinion. TBH, i was just speculating based on what tone i think the pickups will give, not necessarily saying a tone that i would prefer. Obviously the idea is to have a jazz bass, and a MM in one, particular tone of the pickups doesn't matter too much, so long as it produces the tone of those basses.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360932676' post='1978489']
Great suggestions, thanks for that, but i'm trying to keep it simple in terms of build and controls.

I think for now, i'll just have the Jazz with a MM pickup in between. And if needs be, refine it after that. Maybe make a MKII?
[/quote]
With all due respect, I suggest you don't appreciate how complicated your initial proposals will make your life.

You haven't mentioned eq so I'll assume you're intending to run a passive bass. Have you thought about the volume changes between pickups? You won't be able to run a passive bass with multiple pickups and avoid having to adjust the gain on the amp every time you change coil settings. Different pickup designs have different loudnesses, even pickups that come from the same range can change in volume depending on whether the coil settings are in parallel or series.

A preamp with input buffers will even things out. Doesn't mean you need a complicated eq, either. John East makes a perfectly good single knob eq, the BTBM-01 which would do the job of mixing mag and piezo.

If you want a bass that will do jazz and MM sounds, you'll just need a heavy ash body (wood from near the root) and a bolt on maple one piece neck. But that won't give you the sound that you have described as "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3] great, throaty (steady on) sound, full of mids, bass and treble (respectively)" [/size][/font][/color]unless that description is in context of the sounds that are only available from both those instruments. The point I'm making is that there are other ways of delivering that sound better than a MM or Jazz.

BTW, have a go on a HH stingray too, if you would like to see for yourself the impact of volume changes in coil switching without an input buffer. A Lakland Skyline 4402 would probably give you what you are looking for without the risk of failed experimentation.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360950960' post='1978952']
You haven't mentioned eq so I'll assume you're intending to run a passive bass.
[/quote]

I have.


[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360825710' post='1976992']
Then the preamp will be bass and treble boost only.
[/quote]


[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360950960' post='1978952']
If you want a bass that will do jazz and MM sounds, you'll just need a heavy ash body (wood from near the root) and a bolt on maple one piece neck.
[/quote]

Agreed!


[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360950960' post='1978952']
BTW, have a go on a HH stingray too, if you would like to see for yourself the impact of volume changes in coil switching without an input buffer. A Lakland Skyline 4402 would probably give you what you are looking for without the risk of failed experimentation.
[/quote]

I've actually just finished changing one from a HH to a H without coil switching. I like it better this way.

Edited February 15, 2013 by MiltyG565

[Kiwi]

OK, I didn't see the bit about eq - sorry about that. But with multiple coil combinations you'll still need an eq with an input buffer. It won't help much with the series/parallel changes but it will help between parallel and single coil selections.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360954185' post='1979047']
OK, I didn't see the bit about eq - sorry about that. But with multiple coil combinations you'll still need an eq with an input buffer. It won't help much with the series/parallel changes but it will help between parallel and single coil selections.
[/quote]

I agree. I am quit ignorant still of this technical stuff, so that is why i have asked for the opinions and help of you guys I am reading now about input/output buffers.

[Kiwi]

I'd suggest talking to someone like Aaron Armstrong about the impact of polarity in different coil combinations too. Having lots of coils makes life very complicated unless the coil switching options are restricted to a few options that work well.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360954600' post='1979064']
I'd suggest talking to someone like Aaron Armstrong about the impact of polarity in different coil combinations too. Having lots of coils makes life very complicated unless the coil switching options are restricted to a few options that work well.
[/quote]

There won't be a coil switch, just volume controls.

[Myke]

This is a really interesting design I know nothing about anything to do with building and pickups etc. so won't offer any opinions except on the look of the thing but I will keep my eye on this!

Topic followed

[Kiwi]

Even with volumes, you'll be selecting different coils because you'll be mixing single coil and humbucking pickups.

If you get jazz pickups that are stacked humbuckers (the second coil is a humcancelling dummy) you'll be selecting between different humbuckers in terms of voltage but still get the single coil sound. Polarity is still something to be careful about though when selecting a single coil and humbucker. Aaron Armstrong will be able to make you a custom set of J/M/J pickups and advise on how to blend them.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1360955020' post='1979079']
This is a really interesting design I know nothing about anything to do with building and pickups etc. so won't offer any opinions except on the look of the thing but I will keep my eye on this!

Topic followed
[/quote]

Don't go stealing my ideas, Myke... IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME!?

Joking aside- thanks for taking an interest!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1360955747' post='1979095']
Even with volumes, you'll be selecting different coils because you'll be mixing single coil and humbucking pickups.

If you get jazz pickups that are stacked humbuckers (the second coil is a humcancelling dummy) you'll be selecting between different humbuckers in terms of voltage but still get the single coil sound. Polarity is still something to be careful about though when selecting a single coil and humbucker. Aaron Armstrong will be able to make you a custom set of J/M/J pickups and advise on how to blend them.
[/quote]

Ok, what i was going to do was have the single volume pot for the jazz pickups, and one for the MM pickup. Then have a series/parallel pull pot for the jazz pickups. How much would a custom set cost?

[Kiwi]

Its also worth being clear that the coils can be physically accommodated too. It might be worth checking the single coil bridge pickup and MM humbucker don't overlap one another if you haven't done that already.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360956334' post='1979107']
Ok, what i was going to do was have the single volume pot for the jazz pickups, and one for the MM pickup. Then have a series/parallel pull pot for the jazz pickups. How much would a custom set cost?
[/quote]
He made me some replacement single coils for my Celinder for 75 quid each. So not much different to the prices from big name manufacturers.

If you have a pickup blend between the single coils, you'll still have to consider what happens when mixing one single coil and MM humbucker. If you won't be mixing jazz and MM outputs, a switch would be a simpler solution with a master volume.