How do you know if a bassist is 'good' or not?

[xilddx]

Apologies for the slightly misleading thread title.

It seems to me that there is a great number of great bassists out there who really understand the role of the bass within the context of the music they play, and compose subtle but beautiful lines executed with nuanced playing, a beautiful note that makes one chord of a standard cadence soar, a tiny slide that makes you go WOW!, a little lurch that lifts the rhythm, a space that emphasises the singer's key word in a lyric, etc etc. subtle expression that makes all the difference without you really noticing.

These more subtle players are rarely mentioned, all the attention being on a few obviously highly talented players who can demonstrate their amazing ability on bass.

So, when you hear a bassist and decide whether you like their playing and composition, and decide they're 'good', how do you make that decision? Do they need to demonstrate great chops, just for a minute, to get your attention? Or do you appreciate their melodic, harmonic and rhythmical playing without the need for 30 seconds of technical display on youtube or in a song for you to validate them?

Or maybe you feel it is human nature to focus on the more obvious exhuberant displays, would you have heard of Bakithi Kumalo if he had not done that fretless slap bit on You Can Call Me Al ?

Edited February 15, 2013 by xilddx

[icastle]

Depends on where the word 'good' is coming from.

If it's from the bass player then, in my experience, they're not.
If it comes from the musicians that play with the bass player, then they probably are.

Never trust self proclaimed excellence.

[Atalante]

Never trust bass players defending "less notes" just because they arn't able to do something else. A good musician is not limited in any way. Then and then only you may trust his playing to be what he really is and not his limitations speaking through him, trying to fool other limited musicians.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Atalante

[fumps]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1360932897' post='1978500']
Never trust self proclaimed excellence.
[/quote]

Don't tell my other half that ......you will ruin me !

I think with bass it's depends on the listener, I love to hear funk & slap that is done well, I think it's ace to watch. but when I play I love the less is more approach, In my tastes "Quiet competence" goes a lot further with me.

[Muzz]

I like less notes sometimes...restraint is as valid a part of a skillset as any other. Cliff Williams is as 'good' as Jaco, Victor, Jonas, whoever, by the simple virtue of the fact that his playing enhances the music of the band he plays with.

[ahpook]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360932585' post='1978487']
So, when you hear a bassist and decide whether you like their playing and composition, and decide they're 'good', how do you make that decision?
[/quote]

because i like what they're playing.

all judgements on 'good' music or musicians are personal ones and attempting evaluate them in objective terms are a waste of time.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Atalante' timestamp='1360933094' post='1978506']
Never trust bass players defending "less notes" just because they arn't able to do something else. A good musician is not limited in any way. Then and then only you may trust his playing to be what he really is and not his limitations speaking through him, trying to fool other limited musicians.
[/quote]

Do you apply that same principle to singers?

[xilddx]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1360933780' post='1978533']
because i like what they're playing.

all judgements on 'good' music or musicians are personal ones and attempting evaluate them in objective terms are a waste of time.
[/quote]
But the question is framed around personal subjective quality assessment.

[ahpook]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360934082' post='1978544']
But the question is framed around personal subjective quality assessment.
[/quote]

then it's not much of a question imho - it's like asking which is better ? nescafe or kandinsky.

so i'll leave you to it.

Edited February 15, 2013 by ahpook

[xilddx]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1360934207' post='1978547']
then it's not much of a question imho - it's like asking which is better ? nescafe or kandinsky.

so i'll leave you to it.
[/quote]
Maybe you have misunderstood my intent then mate

[chris_b]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360932585' post='1978487']
....would you have heard of Bakithi Kumalo if he had not done that fretless slap bit on You Can Call Me Al ?....
[/quote]

But he [i]didn't[/i] do it. He played half of it and they bodged the second half in the studio.

IMO, the rest of his playing on Graceland was easily enough to give him immortality.


I've seen many fantastic bass players with thechniques that amaze and my record collection is full of them, but for me the sheer joy of bass in a live situation pretty much started and ended with Duck Dunn.

Sad I know, but when I saw Steve Cropper a few weeks ago, I just knew I should have been the one born in Memphis 72 years ago.

[oldslapper]

If I don't notice the bass line and can only hear the song, then I'm happy.

Regarding whether a bass player themselves is "good", unless you are in the studio when the a bass line was recorded, you won't know if the bassist created the line, or has been told what to play.
A good bass line, doesn't always mean "good" bass player.

But what do I know...I like the Beatles, hate some jazz, and don't rate Mark King.

[Conan]

[quote name='Atalante' timestamp='1360933094' post='1978506']
Never trust bass players defending "less notes" just because they arn't able to do something else. A good musician is not limited in any way. Then and then only you may trust his playing to be what he really is and not his limitations speaking through him, trying to fool other limited musicians.
[/quote]

Uh-oh. This sounds eerily familiar...

Sorry, but many "good musicians" are limited in many ways. Are you implying that to qualify as a "good musician" you must be totally flawless in every possible skill related to music?? How on earth does that work?

What is your experience in the music "business" may I ask? How many musicians that you have worked with are "good" by your definition?

Everyone's opinion varies of course, but to me, bass guitar is an instrument that belongs in a band context. That's not to say that I can't enjoy/appreciate the odd piece of Wooten-esque solo playing; but I just prefer to hear a bass played sensitively in a band. In that case, I think a "good" bass player is one whose playing works within the context of that band and actually [i]adds[/i] something to the songs. Maybe this is an old-fashioned view, but it works for me.

[yepmop]

This is what James Jamerson was all about, very subtle bass lines that by and large didn't overpower the song but it is only when you really listened to them in the songs you realised how his technique shaped the song and made it what it was.

As they say it's all about the groove.

Hope i've explained that well enough

[xilddx]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1360934999' post='1978572']
Uh-oh. This sounds eerily familiar...

Sorry, but many "good musicians" are limited in many ways. Are you implying that to qualify as a "good musician" you must be totally flawless in every possible skill related to music?? How on earth does that work?

What is your experience in the music "business" may I ask? How many musicians that you have worked with are "good" by your definition?

Everyone's opinion varies of course, but to me, bass guitar is an instrument that belongs in a band context. That's not to say that I can't enjoy/appreciate the odd piece of Wooten-esque solo playing; but I just prefer to hear a bass played sensitively in a band. In that case, I think a "good" bass player is one whose playing works within the context of that band and actually [i]adds[/i] something to the songs. Maybe this is an old-fashioned view, but it works for me.
[/quote]

This is how I feel. Going back to the way we emotionally evaluate singers, I would think the vast majority of musicians like a singer because of a number of almost indefinable qualities which touch us very deeply. However, for instrumentalists, we musicians seem to focus more on technical aspects.

[fumps]

I suppose the best way I personally can answer this question to you Nige is that if the bass player is making noises I like to hear, For instance I am in love with the bass line from La femme d'argent- By Air I just think that is such a sublime piece of music, the bass line drifts & bounces along like a spring lamb but lighter than the breeze it plays with, it sets a stunning back drop & makes the track something more.
So how do I decide if the player is good or bad ? It's almost impossible to quantify in words for me.....It's like someone asking me to sum up how much I love my son in one sentence!

[Conan]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1360935661' post='1978593']I am in love with the bass line from La femme d'argent- By Air I just think that is such a sublime piece of music, the bass line drifts & bounces along like a spring lamb but lighter than the breeze it plays with, it sets a stunning back drop & makes the track something more.[/quote]

Yes!! Good call fumps! That is (to me) a great piece of bass playing. I wish i could have written that. Simple but beautiful and totally in context. The technical ability of the bass player in question is immaterial when they play something as pleasing as that line.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Conan

[Conan]

Timing is also a factor. A bass player who cannot keep time is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

[xilddx]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1360935661' post='1978593']
I suppose the best way I personally can answer this question to you Nige is that if the bass player is making noises I like to hear, For instance I am in love with the bass line from La femme d'argent- By Air I just think that is such a sublime piece of music, the bass line drifts & bounces along like a spring lamb but lighter than the breeze it plays with, it sets a stunning back drop & makes the track something more.
So how do I decide if the player is good or bad ? It's almost impossible to quantify in words for me.....It's like someone asking me to sum up how much I love my son in one sentence!
[/quote]

I thought La femme d'argent was by David Soul.

But I'm totally with you on this and you describe it very well.

[fumps]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1360936057' post='1978604']
Yes!! Good call fumps! That is (to me) a great piece of bass playing. I wish i could have written that. Simple but beautiful and totally in context. The technical ability of the bass player in question is immaterial when they play something as pleasing as that line.
[/quote]
[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1360936169' post='1978607']
I thought La femme d'argent was by David Soul.

But I'm totally with you on this and you describe it very well.
[/quote]

Yeh that's what I'm trying to say as that particular bass line just demonstrates the best of a bass player, do not overload the track with too many notes, just ride along with it & add to it. Make it better but don't make it your own. That's what I think makes a bass line & quite often a bass player a good one in my book.

Edited February 15, 2013 by fumps

[Conan]

Another great bass part IMO... and it doesn't get much more simple than this!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6FsTIq6ls"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6FsTIq6ls[/url]

[Lowender]

How do you know when ANYTHING is good? It's like trying to define "taste."

[Skol303]

Thinking about it, I don't really base my opinion on the bassist but the bassline they're playing. Obviously the two are very much one and the same. But I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't really listen out for the nuances of a particular playing style (perhaps I should!). Instead, I simply judge as bassist as being 'good' if I find myself humming the line they've played for hours/days/weeks(!?) after listening to the track. What matters to me is whether the bassline contributes to the overall hook and 'catchiness' of the song.

All of which is no doubt influenced by the music I enjoy listening to - hip hop, electronica, dub/reggae, Northern Soul, etc. As an example, I consider someone like Herbie Flowers to be a "good bassist". His b-line on Lou Reed's 'Walk on the Wildside' (sampled by Tribe Called Quest for 'Can I Kick It?') is instantly memorable. You're probably humming it right now, having read that

And [i]that's[/i] what makes a good bassist for me. Someone who lays the foundation of a song with just a few well chosen notes, rather than technical chops. Although soild chops do have their place, of course.

[Big_Stu]

To me it's a very deep question; depends on so much; not least the mood & surroundings of the song at the time. Many times I'll enjoy bass because it's so subtle or at least non-intrusive that it's part of a sublime blend, you don't notice it's there but you can be damn sure you would if it wasn't.
But there again where would songs such as "Town Called Malice" be where it's such an integral part. That's opposed to songs like the afore-mentioned "Al" where as well as being an integral part it's also featured - if for eg. a bassist dropped out of a gig where that song was to be played, presumably it would be covered to an extent by a keyboard bass-line, the keyboard player would have the option of exploring somewhere else with that break, but would it add or detract from the song.

[xilddx]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYFcf4GIks0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYFcf4GIks0[/url]