icastle Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361129394' post='1981560'] Home cooking is killing ready meals? [/quote] Only if Home Cooking is running in the 3.15 at Doncaster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361130022' post='1981576'] It's all very well going on about giving people the freedom to invent and create, but if he can't also provide a way that allows these inventors and creators a way to earn money from their work, how can they create and invent effectively when they have to spend the majority of their time doing something else in order to be able to afford to live? This doesn't enable people at all. It more than ever keeps the resources to dictate who creates and invents in the hands of those who already have money. Meet the new boss - same as the old boss. [/quote] Just because the way that worked 30 years ago doesn't any more doesn't mean there aren't new ways. Record labels as part of the music industry as established with shellc discs are the old boss, and they don't relate to most music being produced currently [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361130147' post='1981581'] This is your opinion. What music you like has no place in this. We can just assume that all music is governed the same and the artist has the same rights as ever y other artists. [/quote] If all music is the same, then we can ignore the stuff that demands payment in favour of the stuff that is cheerfully free, because there are countless people who are keen to have their music listened to, rather than having to be compensate financially for the terrible burden of people hearing their music. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361130147' post='1981581'] Of course it's a sale opportunity. I've bought plenty of albums after listening to them on spotify, which if you read the thread, you know that i do pay for my use of that, but that is not the same as taking an album without paying for it. It's like playing a guitar in the shop before buying it. [/quote] Do you buy every guitar you try, or do you actually decide most of them aren't worth the money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361131078' post='1981609'] Do you buy every guitar you try, or do you actually decide most of them aren't worth the money? [/quote] Some guitars, i like enough to buy, some i think are OK, but i would be happy enough to not own it. Some i wouldn't ever buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361129162' post='1981552'] People wouldn't buy the album anyway- Then why do they want to download it? If they don't want it enough to pay for it, why would you download it for nothing? I don't really care for a lot of things, maybe if somebody bought them as a gift for me, i would be pleased enough, but i feel no desire to own these things on any level, so why would i want to get it for nothing? [/quote] There you're making the assumption that there's no middle ground between being interested in an album/movie/game etc. and being willing to pay for it. Most of the albums I buy are from bands whose previous albums I like or albums that I'm otherwise sure I'm going to like. Most of the albums I download now are albums that I'm kind of interested in but not entirely sure if I'm going to like, because I love discovering and listening to new music, I probably listen to 15 or 20 new (to me) albums a month. If the only way to listen to those albums was to buy them, then I simply wouldn't buy them, because I simply don't have the money to spend on album I may not enjoy, and I lose one of my great passions. Probably 95% of the bands I've spent money on, through buying albums, gig tickets and merch I have discovered through downloading, or more recently streaming, and to be honest the other 5% are probably from borrowing CD's. For the band it's a no-lose situation, If I download an album and don't like it, I usually delete it, and the band have lost absolutely nothing. If I download/stream an album and like it, then I'm likely to buy it or buy their new albums down the line, go to gigs, buy merch, and the band have gained a fan and the money that brings. The reality is that a large percentage of people who download music are like me. [quote]No, it's not really the same as stealing a car, or breaking into somebodies house and running off with their computer, but it's not like it isn't stealing. If i was a bit better versed on the ins and outs of intellectual rights, i'm sure i could probably make a fairly good argument here, but i'm not.[/quote] Who are you stealing it from? You're not stealing anyone else's copy because by downloading it you create your own copy, and as discussed, the idea of "stealing" it from the artist is predicated on the assumption of a potential sale. Intellectual property law and copyright law is an absolute minefield, each country has their own laws but America thinks their laws apply everywhere, and a lot of people are saying that new laws are being made with significant influence from the record/movie industry. [quote]I agree with quite a bit of what you are saying, Bob, except the analogy about Doritos. I would say it was more like your mum having Doritios, then make an exact duplicate and giving it to you, giving both you and her Doritos, one of which were purchased above board, and the other is a copy, which DID deprive Tesco of a sale.[/quote] I agree that my analogy was not excellent but to be honest yours has kind of compounded the error, should home cooking be illegal? I seem to recall you mentioning spotify, somebody calculated that in order to make US minimum wage from Spotify royalties, and artist would need 4 million streams per month, does that seem particularly supportive of artists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361130427' post='1981588'] Actually, I didn't read that as Mr Foxen's personal take on things (though it could be). I read it as applying to everyone. Unless someone happens to like absolutely all music , then the statement is essentially true for anyone. I know it is for me. [/quote] Yes, but what somebody considers rubbish, another person will consider brilliance. This isn't about what you think about music, it's about why some people think it's OK to pay nothing for music from their favourite artists. I don't agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361131600' post='1981631'] Yes, but what somebody considers rubbish, another person will consider brilliance. [/quote] Exactly. That's why, for any given person, most of the music out there is rubbish. As for not paying an artist, what about all those people who are happy to play original songs for free? I went to a gig a while back and the band was giving out CDs to anyone who wanted them. Surely it's down to the owner of the music to decide the terms on how it is used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361131308' post='1981618'] Some guitars, i like enough to buy, some i think are OK, but i would be happy enough to not own it. Some i wouldn't ever buy. [/quote] You think its OK to try and not buy because the shop still has the guitar after you tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heminder Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361130022' post='1981576'] It's all very well going on about giving people the freedom to invent and create, but if he can't also provide a way that allows these inventors and creators a way to earn money from their work, how can they create and invent effectively when they have to spend the majority of their time doing something else in order to be able to afford to live? [/quote] Who said we can't earn money from our work? It's not up to him to dictate to me or to you how we earn our living. We're not in a dictatorship here. His point was that implementing these jurassic laws that are proposed by RIAA and co breaks the very fabric of information society and is in direct conflict with civil liberties. [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361130022' post='1981576']This doesn't enable people at all. It more than ever keeps the resources to dictate who creates and invents in the hands of those who already have money. Meet the new boss - same as the old boss. [/quote] Are you kidding me? It is the current system of record labels that is keeping resources closed off and dictating who will be the next star. Open culture is more inventive, creative, and efficient than restrictive culture. Every scientist, engineer, fashion designer, automotive designer, chef, programmer, etc knows this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361131078' post='1981609'] Just because the way that worked 30 years ago doesn't any more doesn't mean there aren't new ways. Record labels as part of the music industry as established with shellc discs are the old boss, and they don't relate to most music being produced currently [/quote] So what are new ways that music artists can make enough money to live on from their work? And don't give me that bollocks about great art coming from suffering. Great art comes from having the time and energy to put into creating it, instead of having to spend most resources into other things in order to be able to put food on the table and a roof over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 This old chestnut again. Illegal downloading is not stealing. It is illegal, and you can argue that its morally wrong (I think it is wrong), but its not stealing. If you say its stealing, then you're factually wrong. And people who are factually wrong generally tend to lose arguments. I buy an absolutely shedload of records, but I've also bought a lot of those on the back of someone giving me a mixtape or copy of a band's work. Its a tricky area. Personally I think that the hyperbole and nonsense the likes of the RIAA comes up with with regards downloads does a lot more harm than it does good for musicians---they say things like " we predicted that we'd sell 11 million copies of the new Britney record, we only sold 4 million, the other 7 million lost sales is entirely down to downloads...". When you have morons fighting your corner you're bound to lose. Interesting to see Spotify get mentioned. Personally I think Spotify is brilliant for listeners but an absolute disaster for musicians. It lets people legitimately listen to your music, but you'll be damned if you ever make a penny from it. For me, being on spotify is a bit like a big fat sign saying "we really aren't interested in you paying us for our music". That doesn't make it ok to just download it, but its hard to argue against downloads when loads of artists are voluntarily signing up to a service that means that they are, essentially, giving stuff away for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361129394' post='1981560'] Home cooking is killing ready meals? [/quote] No, you're being pedantic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361135017' post='1981723'] So what are new ways that music artists can make enough money to live on from their work? And don't give me that bollocks about great art coming from suffering. Great art comes from having the time and energy to put into creating it, instead of having to spend most resources into other things in order to be able to put food on the table and a roof over your head. [/quote] It sounds as if you think musicians have some sort of fundamental right to be able to make enough money to live on. I don't think that's the way things work these days, in fact I don't think it ever worked that way. We have to earn our income and we can choose many different ways of doing it. But when times change, the way we used to earn a living may not work anymore, so we have to adapt. If that sounds tough then I'm afraid it is, but wishing it was different will make little difference. People who embrace change and figure out ways to exploit new opportunities generally fare better than people who prefer to remain rooted in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361133365' post='1981678'] You think its OK to try and not buy because the shop still has the guitar after you tried it? [/quote] Oh, stop being so pedantic, would you? Of course it's alright, especially when the shop has a sign saying "These guitars were made to be played, so give them a try". Trying them is what leads to a sale, as i agreed with Bob, there's nothing to be gained or lost from trying something out, but the way that it is done for some people, i don't agree with. What if i went in to the shop and said "Hey, i might like that guitar over there, how about it take that home, and play it, and if i decide i like it, i'll come back and buy another guitar." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361135990' post='1981753'] Oh, stop being so pedantic, would you? Of course it's alright, especially when the shop has a sign saying "These guitars were made to be played, so give them a try". Trying them is what leads to a sale, as i agreed with Bob, there's nothing to be gained or lost from trying something out, but the way that it is done for some people, i don't agree with. What if i went in to the shop and said "Hey, i might like that guitar over there, how about it take that home, and play it, and if i decide i like it, i'll come back and buy another guitar." [/quote] But that isn't the same, in your example the shop is losing a physical item that they've bought on credit, and are hence losing money. With downloading an album, nobody is losing anything, the band aren't losing the ability to sell records because the potential for digital copies is infinite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361135017' post='1981723'] So what are new ways that music artists can make enough money to live on from their work? And don't give me that bollocks about great art coming from suffering. Great art comes from having the time and energy to put into creating it, instead of having to spend most resources into other things in order to be able to put food on the table and a roof over your head. [/quote] Making money off things is the ideas thing, mentioned earlier. You were pretty insistent such stuff needs paying for. But currently, see all professional musicians doing original work. Not like they don't exist. [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1361135066' post='1981726'] Illegal downloading is not stealing. It is illegal, [/quote] Illegal downloading might be illegal, but under UK law, downloading music from illegal uploaders isn't illegal. Go try and find a single case of someone being convicted/sued for downloading music illegally in the UK. It happens in the US, but here, its uploading that triggers copyright breach and that means the uploader, including people who share files. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361135990' post='1981753'] Oh, stop being so pedantic, would you? [/quote] If you insist on using analogies, its kind of necessary they work on a basic level. Edited February 17, 2013 by Mr. Foxen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361136890' post='1981771'] Illegal downloading might be illegal, but under UK law, downloading music from illegal uploaders isn't illegal. Go try and find a single case of someone being convicted/sued for downloading music illegally in the UK. It happens in the US, but here, its uploading that triggers copyright breach and that means the uploader, including people who share files. [/quote] If true, that makes sense - if nothing was illegally uploaded then it couldn't then be illegally downloaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1361136711' post='1981769'] But that isn't the same, in your example the shop is losing a physical item that they've bought on credit, and are hence losing money. With downloading an album, nobody is losing anything, the band aren't losing the ability to sell records because the potential for digital copies is infinite. [/quote] I know, but what they have is people with copies of their work that was supposed to be paid for, but wasn't. So in principle, it's the same, if not in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Why are some people here so upset about file sharing and what harm is it doing to them personally? Plenty of people benefit from it, but who is actually losing all this money that you are all so worried about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361135801' post='1981749'] It sounds as if you think musicians have some sort of fundamental right to be able to make enough money to live on. I don't think that's the way things work these days, in fact I don't think it ever worked that way. [/quote] The only way musicians can make enough money to live on is if enough people think that they (musicians) are entertaining enough to pay to see them perform (with subsequent sales of merch, etc) OR if they (musicians) can provide other in-demand services such as teaching, sessions, production and/or programming, etc. Or possibly a hand shandy behind a skip round the back of Matalan. You decide. It's like any other industry - if you're crap you're eventually going to starve - unless you get a job at the met office of course. Boom-tish. Paradoxically though, I have a cunning plan to make money from the music business by [i]deliberately [/i]remaining rooted in the past and actively NOT embracing change and adapting to new business models... I'll let you know how that pans out. Edited February 17, 2013 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1361137720' post='1981789'] Plenty of people benefit from it, but who is actually losing all this money that you are all so worried about? [/quote] All the people who were obviously going to be massively wealthy music stars if it wasn't for being held back by people who listen to music on the internet, obviously. This guy was going to make it until his video got leaked onto the internet before the record label gave him a contract: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oua7nITx4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oua7nITx4[/url] Edit: bah, video not embedding. Edited February 17, 2013 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1361137720' post='1981789'] Why are some people here so upset about file sharing and what harm is it doing to them personally? Plenty of people benefit from it, but who is actually losing all this money that you are all so worried about? [/quote] Oh, nobody really, just record companies, the people who work with record labels and the music industry in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361138115' post='1981802'] Oh, nobody really, just record companies, the people who work with record labels and the music industry in general. [/quote] Ha, so not anyone who actually makes music then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361135017' post='1981723'] So what are new ways that music artists can make enough money to live on from their work? And don't give me that bollocks about great art coming from suffering. Great art comes from having the time and energy to put into creating it, instead of having to spend most resources into other things in order to be able to put food on the table and a roof over your head. [/quote] You could always save some food/rent money by illegally downloading your music for free rather than buying it, BRX ;-D Edit: please don't shout at me, you know it was only a joke :-) Edited February 17, 2013 by Roland Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361138115' post='1981802'] Oh, nobody really, just record companies, the people who work with record labels and the music industry in general. [/quote] So why does this upset you so much? Do you think the music industry appreciates your concern? Record companies need to adapt and they have plenty of money to do so, but they seem to prefer throwing it away in a futile attempt to turn the clocks back. The music industry in general will be fine, if it adapts and makes the most of new technology. We are seeing a revolution and there is no going back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I don't think there needs to be an 'industry' in the corporate sense, there isn't anything they can do that you can't do yourself any more. The only thing is the assumption that someone else will invest in something you won't invest in yourself is even less true than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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