Illegal downloading, file-sharing and what i think- what do you think?

[fumps]

[quote name='Russ' timestamp='1361183680' post='1982241']
Milty - have you ever been professionally involved in any other creative field? When you're first trying to break into the field, you've got to spend a lot of your own time (and probably a fair bit of money) on building a portfolio. A recording is a musician's portfolio. The fact that they've got to self-finance it just means they're in the same position as every other aspiring creative professional. Once you get the gig (literally and metaphorically) you find yourself in the same boat as more or less any other small business - it's just that now the customers have changed from the labels to the fans themselves, with various upselling opportunities on the back of your loss leader (your recordings).
[/quote]

Yes I have to agree with this, I am very good mates with a very talented sound technician who actually owns his own recording studio. It was origionally his business, which eventually went under, he now has this studio in his loft coversion at home, it is extremely hard to make money out of music. He now does it like the rest of us, he simply does music for the love of it, not the art or the money.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1361183921' post='1982247']
The benefits of some new format over what we have at the moment will be very technical and not very accessible to the public---they just won't care.
[/quote]

I agree. And whatever new formats are developed, they will be playable on PCs and smartphones anyway, without anyone needing to go out an buy a new playback system, like they had to for CDs and DVDs.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1361185775' post='1982284']
I have been writing and recording music for many years including 10 years signed to EMI.
Now I produce music with a band on basic gear in my front room.
We make our own CDs to sell at gigs and via other outlets.
We don't sell as many as I used to, but we make more money than we would if a record label was taking the lion's share and all our profits go straight to us.
We give away our music freely for anyone wanting to download it and this has led to airplay and gigs in various new territories.
Airplay has always been the most lucrative form of income for most musicians like me, currently the BBC pay approx. £15 per minute for radio One and around £1.00 per minute for local stations.
There are many thousands of radio stations all over the world and I receive revenue from Japan, USA, Europe and the far east, mostly due to people hearing our music from free downloads.
Only last night, I had an email from a national radio station offering to play our music - I will inform PRS and they will collect our royalties.
We also play gigs and festivals, for which we receive fees and PRS royalties, which increase with the size of gig.
There are other ways of making money in the music business, but this model suits us and we are in total control of it.
There are many other musicians like us, using the new models to produce and distribute their music, instead of moaning about the good old days.
I believe this is the best time ever to be a musician, with so many ways to take control and get your music heard.
We would have been amazed back in the 70s to think this would be possible and I am happy to be part of the revolution.

We don't do it to make money and we are not rich, but we are happy
[/quote]

Out of interest how much of your current "success" is built on your previous 10 years at EMI and contacts you made in the business from that time?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Russ' timestamp='1361184507' post='1982262']
Vinyl junkies aren't as much of a dying breed as you think, they're just becoming much more genre-specific. There's still quite a lot of people out there who are buying the high-end turntables, top-end speakers, etc, but they're mostly listeners of classical, jazz, reggae, prog rock and some kinds of dance music. These are almost always people who take the time to listen and concentrate on their music rather than having it as audio wallpaper. But these people will often also use digital formats when they're out and about, but prefer vinyl for home listening.
[/quote]

My lad and all his mates are pretty keen on music, like most youngsters, but I don't see any of them yearning to buy their own hi-fi systems (vinyl or otherwise). Their media world revolves around their PCs and smartphones. Some will upgrade their PC for a better sound system (which usually just means louder and bigger speakers ) , but the concept of a separate collection of boxes and a shelf full of physical media is completely alien to them. I suppose they may not be typical, but I suspect they are.

Don't forget that the technology we're talking about has really only been available for about 20 years and probably only mainstream for about 10. Do we really believe that things are not going to continue in the same direction, at an ever faster rate? I've seen complete technologies come and go in my lifetime - Compact cassettes, VCRs, minidisc, camcorders, etc. Anyone thinking that they can slow down or even halt the rate of change is living in a dream world - much like the big label bosses and the board of HMV.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Russ' timestamp='1361184507' post='1982262']
No. FLAC and high bitrate MP3 are still 44.1KHz but are lossless (FLAC), or less lossy with less artifacting (MP3). FLAC is the same as a CD. High bitrate MP3s are still not as good as a CD.
[/quote]

If you increase the bit-rate of MP3 enough then no-one can tell the difference when compared to a cd, and you don't have to increase it very far before anyone other than audio geeks would care about the differences anyway.

[quote]Vinyl junkies aren't as much of a dying breed as you think, they're just becoming much more genre-specific. There's still quite a lot of people out there who are buying the high-end turntables, top-end speakers, etc, but they're mostly listeners of classical, jazz, reggae, prog rock and some kinds of dance music.
[/quote]

Well, yes. But people that are "into" jazz, classical, and reggae probably aren't the people who are out there downloading everything instead of buying it. The problem for the record industry isn't the people who are "into" music---because we're collectors who'll probably always buy stuff, in whatever format---but the people who used to buy the odd thing here and there but have now just stopped.

[discreet]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1361183921' post='1982247']
Vinyl junkies are a dying breed (and they're demonstrably wrong that digital doesn't sound as good, but thats another debate). People aren't going to buy new hardware to buy a new album anymore.
[/quote]

Where did you get this from? It's just not true.
There has been a massive resurgence in vinyl album sales, particularly over the last five years:

[url="http://blog.dubspot.com/the-resurgence-of-vinyl-continues-in-2012-record-stores-making-a-comeback/"]http://blog.dubspot.com/the-resurgence-of-vinyl-continues-in-2012-record-stores-making-a-comeback/[/url]

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21010240"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21010240[/url]

And having just recorded three numbers in an analogue-only studio, I can confirm that digital doesn't sound [i]anywhere near [/i]as good.

[redstriper]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361187918' post='1982335']
Out of interest how much of your current "success" is built on your previous 10 years at EMI and contacts you made in the business from that time?
[/quote]

None and I didn't claim to be 'successful'.
I was just giving some examples of how the new digital economy can work for musicians if they accept it.

I don't know why I bother

Edited February 18, 2013 by redstriper

[Skol303]

Ultimately, the genie is out of the bottle with regards to file sharing - illegal or not. And it goes way beyond music to include films, video games, eBooks, software, etc.

This situation is nigh impossible to reverse. Files can be encrypted, people can be taken to court, but the market for illegal downloads will always find a way of setting up shop somewhere else.

So... while it makes for an interesting debate, it's also a moot point. Nothing can really be done about it; the 'good old days' pre-file sharing are dead and gone (goodbye to the fuzzy nostalgia of illegally copying albums tape-to-tape... ).

Morally-speaking, obtaining stuff that has a price tag without paying for it is theft - I think we can all agree on that. But illegally downloading music is so accessible and widespread that I'm sure for many people it doesn't [i]feel[/i] like a crime. I mean, I don't imagine it requires the same mindset as that of a shoplifter, although the deed itself is comparable.

But like I said, the genie is out of the bottle and he/she* certainly isn't going to be put back there in a hurry [*genies operate an equal opportunities policy these days]. If you're a musician, a manager, a label, a distributor or anyone else wanting to earn money from the food chain of the music industry, then you need to adapt or, well, not literally 'die' but become insolvent. Or at least struggle. Or find another career.

And yes, this sucks. It's culled off many of the independent labels that used to populate the building where I work; it's hit the pockets of the major labels that are cutting studio time and taking less risks with signings; etc.

But that's just the way things are now. Live shows and selling 'direct-to-fans' are often cited as being the only viable business models remaining in the industry. I don't know enough about it to say whether that's the case. But it appears that digital music has leveled the playing field for artists to adopt a more DIY-approach in ways that would never have been possible when music was distributed solely on vinyl, tape or CD. Or rather - it's created opportunities beyond the once Holy Grail of getting signed to a label, which in the past was pretty much the only option available to new bands.

Silver linings, and all that...

[redstriper]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361186965' post='1982310']
But this still isn't the purpose of this thread.
[/quote]

Sorry, I was just reacting to your previous comments about how musicians can make money from the digital economy.
I didn't mean to derail your thread.
I'll shut up now, because I'm obviously getting on your nerves by disagreeing with you.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361189801' post='1982378']
Ultimately, the genie is out of the bottle with regards to file sharing - illegal or not. And it goes way beyond music to include films, video games, eBooks, software, etc.

This situation is nigh impossible to reverse. Files can be encrypted, people can be taken to court, but the market for illegal downloads will always find a way of setting up shop somewhere else.

So... while it makes for an interesting debate, it's also a moot point. Nothing can really be done about it; the 'good old days' pre-file sharing are dead and gone (goodbye to the fuzzy nostalgia of illegally copying albums tape-to-tape... ).

Morally-speaking, obtaining stuff that has a price tag without paying for it is theft - I think we can all agree on that. But illegally downloading music is so accessible and widespread that I'm sure for many people it doesn't [i]feel[/i] like a crime. I mean, I don't imagine it requires the same mindset as that of a shoplifter, although the deed itself is comparable.

But like I said, the genie is out of the bottle and he/she* certainly isn't going to be put back there in a hurry [*genies operate an equal opportunities policy these days]. If you're a musician, a manager, a label, a distributor or anyone else wanting to earn money from the food chain of the music industry, then you need to adapt or, well, not literally 'die' but become insolvent. Or at least struggle. Or find another career.

And yes, this sucks. It's culled off many of the independent labels that used to populate the building where I work; it's hit the pockets of the major labels that are cutting studio time and taking less risks with signings; etc.

But that's just the way things are now. Live shows and selling 'direct-to-fans' are often cited as being the only viable business models remaining in the industry. I don't know enough about it to say whether that's the case. But it appears that digital music has leveled the playing field for artists to adopt a more DIY-approach in ways that would never have been possible when music was distributed solely on vinyl, tape or CD. Or rather - it's created opportunities beyond the once Holy Grail of getting signed to a label, which in the past was pretty much the only option available to new bands.

Silver linings, and all that...
[/quote]

Great post, and this summarises my views as well.

It's unfortunately the way things are. I no longer enjoy my music as much as I used to, because I don't spend the time listening to it like I should.

E.g., you can buy a CD fior £5.00 or less, or the mp3s for less. When I bought many many CD's, I used to pay £10+, and REALLY enjoy taking it home and listening to it properly.

Now, I feel like everything is so watered down, I barely get excited about a band or artist. Anyone can release music, just be using something like Soundcloud. Easy way to get your work out there.

I would also put this to those who make money/a living from any type of covers band:

Is it fair to the original artist that you are using THEIR songs to make YOUR money?

Same priniciple...if you ask me.

I wouldn't dream about trying to make a career of being a musician. Far too unstable, and barely anyone truely makes it.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1361189827' post='1982379']
Sorry, I was just reacting to your previous comments about how musicians can make money from the digital economy.
I didn't mean to derail your thread.
I'll shut up now, because I'm obviously getting on your nerves by disagreeing with you.
[/quote]

Ok, so just focus on the part where i said it wasn't the point? You weren't annoying me at all by disagreeing. I wouldn't have posted this thread and expected everyone to just share my view, i'm not naive. You can blether away, and i'll blether back if i see a need to.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1361190263' post='1982389']
I wouldn't dream about trying to make a career of being a musician. Far too unstable, and barely anyone truely makes it.
[/quote]

If it makes me enough money to live on, i don't mind not "truly making it".

[redstriper]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361190334' post='1982391']
Ok, so just focus on the part where i said it wasn't the point?
[/quote]

Focusing..........

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1361101305' post='1980966']
Simple principle...Get something you didn't pay for = theft??
[/quote]

I seem to have stolen a cold from someone this morning.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361190436' post='1982392']
If it makes me enough money to live on, i don't mind not "truly making it".
[/quote]

That's great, and I'm glad some are able to do it.

When I mean 'make it', from my point of view, I wouldn't want to be a session musician or teacher if I was in music as a career. I'd want to be in a large sucessful band, that I'd written music for to some extent. Childhood dream, probably shared by millions!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1361192325' post='1982432']
That's great, and I'm glad some are able to do it.

When I mean 'make it', from my point of view, I wouldn't want to be a session musician or teacher if I was in music as a career. I'd want to be in a large sucessful band, that I'd written music for to some extent. Childhood dream, probably shared by millions!
[/quote]

Oh, who wouldn't? Although i think being a really massive rock star isn't as glamorous as it might seem. But this term "Make it" gets thrown around a lot. Make what? what, as a musician, is the goal that we are all supposed to be aiming for, this "It" that everyone refers to. Sorry, but if i can live comfortably off my music, frankly, i have made it, and everything after that is a bonus.

A year or 2 ago, my friends tried to say that i shouldn't focus on music as a career because very few people "Make it". I had to point out that they clearly know f*** all about music, even at a local level and that they should stop trying to dictate how i should live my life. I'm not saying that they were wrong, but they obviously don't understand the very many ways that we as musicians can make money from our skills.

[Russ]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361192926' post='1982441']
Oh, who wouldn't? Although i think being a really massive rock star isn't as glamorous as it might seem. But this term "Make it" gets thrown around a lot. Make what? what, as a musician, is the goal that we are all supposed to be aiming for, this "It" that everyone refers to. Sorry, but if i can live comfortably off my music, frankly, i have made it, and everything after that is a bonus.

A year or 2 ago, my friends tried to say that i shouldn't focus on music as a career because very few people "Make it". I had to point out that they clearly know f*** all about music, even at a local level and that they should stop trying to dictate how i should live my life. I'm not saying that they were wrong, but they obviously don't understand the very many ways that we as musicians can make money from our skills.
[/quote]

The whole notion of "making it" is nonsense. Someone who plays in a pit band for a West End show has made it. Someone who plays in an orchestra has made it. Someone who gigs covers for a living has made it. It's not all about groupies, drugs and throwing TVs out of hotel room windows (not that that side of it isn't fun ), it's about making a living. Never got to that point with it myself - even when I was in a signed band I still had to work a day job. It's almost like I don't want to though - to me, once playing music feels like work, that's when it stops being fun.

[thumbo]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1361190263' post='1982389']
I wouldn't dream about trying to make a career of being a musician. Far too unstable, and barely anyone truely makes it.
[/quote]

I think this is a realistic stance. I started playing music and making music because it's enjoyable for many reasons - particularly the pleasure I get from writing new stuff and performing live and the social life that goes with it. You don't need to be earning money out of it to achieve those things. I've always had a job or some other focus that I'd consider a career, music is the part that keeps me sane (kind of [size=4] ).[/size]

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Russ' timestamp='1361193601' post='1982456']
The whole notion of "making it" is nonsense. Someone who plays in a pit band for a West End show has made it. Someone who plays in an orchestra has made it. Someone who gigs covers for a living has made it. It's not all about groupies, drugs and throwing TVs out of hotel room windows (not that that side of it isn't fun ), it's about making a living. Never got to that point with it myself - even when I was in a signed band I still had to work a day job. It's almost like I don't want to though - to me, once playing music feels like work, that's when it stops being fun.
[/quote]

Exactly my point. These guys had no idea what being a musician was opening you up to. All they saw was high profile rock stars, and how difficult it is to get to that level, especially if you aren't very good and are just playing something that sounds like somebody else. It's a very common fallacy, but one that shouldn't exist. I was told to "Stick with IT", but i bloody hate IT with a passion. If i had to work with computers all day, i would stab my eyes out with rusty old needles.

[KevB]

If we are talking from a viewpoint of denial of royalties to the original artist then all second hand music sales should be made illegal. Only the purchase of the original copy fed any money back to the artist so irrespective of whether a 'safety' copy is made or not that particular unit earns no more for the artist no matter how often it subsequently changes hands. Hands up here who has never bought or sold a second hand record/CD/tape?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='thumbo' timestamp='1361194048' post='1982465']
I think this is a realistic stance. I started playing music and making music because it's enjoyable for many reasons - particularly the pleasure I get from writing new stuff and performing live and the social life that goes with it. You don't need to be earning money out of it to achieve those things. I've always had a job or some other focus that I'd consider a career, music is the part that keeps me sane (kind of [size=4] ).[/size]
[/quote]

Same here. Career is work. Music is for fun and stress relief, and because its just briliant all round. I wouldn't like it to start feeling like a job.

But, we are all different

Personally, being in a well known band would be 'it' for me, especially if it meant earning a proper living off it. Again, we are all different. I was bought up listening to bands who probably are associated with a rock star lifestyle, so that is where my goal would lie. I

[bobbass4k]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1361194712' post='1982485']
If we are talking from a viewpoint of denial of royalties to the original artist then all second hand music sales should be made illegal. Only the purchase of the original copy fed any money back to the artist so irrespective of whether a 'safety' copy is made or not that particular unit earns no more for the artist no matter how often it subsequently changes hands. Hands up here who has never bought or sold a second hand record/CD/tape?
[/quote]

It's heading that way. The video games industry has been doing it with PC games for years, most physical games have single use activation codes that bind them to one particular machine or user account, and downloaded games depend on the service used, but they all bind them to one particular user account. The next generation of video game consoles is pretty much confirmed to have "anti-used" game technology, probably a single use activation code that binds them to one user account or console, and requires a constant internet connection for verification.

I don't see a similar thing being at all practical with music but to be honest they've already started down that path with DRM on CD's. Fortunately that didn't last long because it cost a lot of money and didn't make a dent in piracy, but they didn't get the message, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see newer more subtle DRM technologies down the line.

On the topic of music piracy, I'm off to a Deftones gig tonight. I downloaded their self titled album in 2003 after hearing Minerva on TV, that was dial up days too so it took FOREVER. I bought the CD a few weeks later, and over the next couple of years bought all their albums. This ticket cost £30ish and I'll probably buy a tshirt tonight. All money they wouldn't have had from me had I not downloaded that album.

[discreet]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1361195848' post='1982520']
I was bought up listening to bands who probably are associated with a rock star lifestyle, so that is where my goal would lie.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that's an unrealistic goal, but apart from a few obvious exceptions the whole 'rich rock star' thing was enabled by the sale of recordings in very large quantities - from say, the late fifties up to the time when the rise of the mp3 overtook the sale of extant recorded media - a timescale of only fifty or sixty years.

The days of receiving a large advance from a record label in exchange for the rights to your music in perpetuity are over. Which is a very good thing imho - given the nightmare tales of greed and theft by managers, lawyers, accountants and big business which abounded in the 60s and 70s.

Edited February 18, 2013 by discreet

[flyfisher]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1361190918' post='1982404']
I seem to have stolen a cold from someone this morning.
[/quote]

Brilliant, and oh so relevant.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361194116' post='1982469']
I was told to "Stick with IT", but i bloody hate IT with a passion. If i had to work with computers all day, i would stab my eyes out with rusty old needles.
[/quote]

I can't really explain why that is so wrong on almost every level without coming across as a really smug git, so I'll just suggest that there are far worse ways to earn a rather decent living.