Illegal downloading, file-sharing and what i think- what do you think?

[icastle]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1361471094' post='1986291']
Thinking it through, did we see any significant investment in security before the genie of piracy was out of the bottle? It felt to me like they simply tried to ignore the channel
[/quote]

I'm not sure if it was 'ignore' or if it was a complete lack of understanding of where technology was going to impact their business model.
Whichever one it was, they all followed suit and are now all in the same boat.

I seem to remember Sony implementing a security package (MediaMax) on some of their CDs about 5 years ago and getting hauled into court for it.
It cost them a packet to implement it in the first place and a further packet to buy themselves out of the resultant mess.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1361471932' post='1986312']


I'm not sure if it was 'ignore' or if it was a complete lack of understanding of where technology was going to impact their business model.
Whichever one it was, they all followed suit and are now all in the same boat.

I seem to remember Sony implementing a security package (MediaMax) on some of their CDs about 5 years ago and getting hauled into court for it.
It cost them a packet to implement it in the first place and a further packet to buy themselves out of the resultant mess.
[/quote]

Longbox, anyone?

I take the point on "ignore" - but that's willful. The flip side of the coin is that they blundered into it.

Not sure which is better or worse.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1361471293' post='1986296']
What I consider to be 'good', whilst appealing to those adorned in beige cardigans with leather elbow patches, probably wouldn't go down quite so well with a less discerning listener. [/quote]

Ah! But there's all different kinds of 'good'. Apart from a few Fotherington-Thomas's who infest these pages with their Pollyanna-ish bleatings of 'There's soooo much greaaaaaat stuff out there and they're doing it without the corporate boot on their neck', the whole world is in agreement that 99% of music is sh*t.

Whether it be that of the seasoned, jet-setting major-label pro or some friendless, scrofulous oik with garageband on his Mac, all but a tiny fraction of today's music utterly stinks. That's why music is going down the the toilet - because it's all one big, steaming Richard Plantagenet.

If any of it was any good, the people who currently don't buy much music would be [i]buying it*[/i] by the scad-load, the music business would be thriving and we wouldn't be having this discussion. QED.

Stick your cheese up your arse. Ou sont les neiges d'antan?


[size=3]* See FF point re: Guardian survey[/size]

Edited February 21, 2013 by skankdelvar

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1361472293' post='1986319']
...that's why music is going down the the toilet - because it's all one big, steaming Richard Plantagenet.
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Ou sont les neiges d'antan?[/font][/color]
[/quote]

How true. Where, indeed..?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1361472293' post='1986319']
some friendless, scrofulous oik with garageband on his mac.
[/quote]

I'm offended! I don't have scrofula.

Some people, eh?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1361471094' post='1986291']Coming back to Stu's point about hanging in for security measures - perhaps, yeah. I'm not totally convinced, but it's perhaps part of it. [/quote]

It is - honest, would I lie to you? It's all they can do within the vision of what the music world will become.

Personally I see the future of audio music being entirely video+audio. Audio only music being consigned to how vinyl is viewed now - by the general public that is.

[MiltyG565]

I'm not really coming back on to this topic, but i just wanted to say something that came in to my head when i read Big Stu's last post.

When i was in school, i was in the art department, and one of the girls on there said to another person "I will only listen to a song if i see the music video first and like it".

I was about 12, and even then i knew that was a bunch of mis-guided rubbish.

Milton, away!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361473111' post='1986339']
I'm offended! I don't have scrofula. [/quote]

No you don't. Permit me some artistic license, if you will.

I like Big Stu's idea about audio + video being the way of the future. If they can sort the driverless car thing (as has recently been suggested), then who needs car radios? Driver TV as the way of the future?

"Oooh, Madge, someone's killing Phil on Eastenders, look"

"C****T'S F*T C**K! MIND THAT TRUCK, DEREK!"

(whump)

Edited February 21, 2013 by skankdelvar

[icastle]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1361472256' post='1986317']


Longbox, anyone?

I take the point on "ignore" - but that's willful. The flip side of the coin is that they blundered into it.

Not sure which is better or worse.
[/quote]

Did he trip and break his nose or did he walk into a door and break his nose?
Either way round, he's still got a broken nose.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1361473492' post='1986347']
It is - honest, would I lie to you? It's all they can do within the vision of what the music world will become.
[/quote]

I really like that, "what... will become" - suggests they were almost hostages to fate.

I think they were - either wilfully, or through ignorance, they lost the initiative. Security was cack-handed and too late.

Great comments lads.

[icastle]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1361473864' post='1986357']
If they can sort the driverless car thing (as has recently been suggested), then who needs car radios? [/quote]



That'll bring forth a whole new flurry of nerdy quips about 'updating drivers', 'rebooting' and bring an entire new reality to the acronym BSOD...

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1361474198' post='1986365']I think they were - either wilfully, or through ignorance, they lost the initiative. Security was cack-handed and too late.[/quote]

Exactly - buit given how big the machine is & what they stand to lose - they have, comparatively, to the pirates themselves, speaking; a bottomless pit of funds to put into anti-piracy software. Not so much blocking s'ware, I would guess more along the lines of (as I wrote a few posts ago) the traceability & accountability of anyone downloading.
You only need to read HYS mantra on the BBC site, "Only those with something to hide have anything to fear", it's heading that way - and in the same way that the childhood game of dodging your train-ticket is now a criminal (not civil) offence I reckon music piracy will end up on the same level of law.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Big_Stu

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1361472293' post='1986319']

If any of it was any good, the people who currently don't buy much music would be [i]buying it*[/i] by the scad-load, the music business would be thriving and we wouldn't be having this discussion. QED.

[size=3]* See FF point re: Guardian survey[/size]
[/quote]

Not if they can get it for free they won't.

Steve

PS Yes I have read The Guardian piece, the catch in these studies is that they refer to music files and digital music and legal downloads not to music sales (ie CDs etc) as a whole. Digital is not yet the totality of music sales

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1361477499' post='1986436']
PS Yes I have read The Guardian piece[/quote]

TBH, I haven't.

In any event, if people who don't spend much on music don't 'download' then they must think the music's so bad, they wouldn't have it for free. Ergo propter, etc.

(Brandishes banner of logic, cackles insanely and trips over a passing hedgehog).

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1361475403' post='1986386']
You only need to read HYS mantra on the BBC site, "Only those with something to hide have anything to fear", it's heading that way - and in the same way that the childhood game of dodging your train-ticket is now a criminal (not civil) offence I reckon music piracy will end up on the same level of law.
[/quote]

You could well be right about the 'big brother' thing, but I still reckon that they've missed the boat because most music fans already have a few hundred GB of music on their hard drives so even if things were tightened right up tomorrow with uncrackable anti-copy mechanisms and the death penalty for copyright abuse, most people would simply stop worrying about new music and just enjoy what they've already got.

After all, a lot of the habit of downloading is like a junkie's search for the next fix - the relentless drive to find something new and better than they've ever heard before. But wean them off the habit - even if it's cold turkey - and they'll return to being all mild-mannered and content with the mere 'months' of continuously playable music they've already got in their iPad or smartphone.

The music industry will then be able to gloat that they've 'beaten' file sharing for a short while before realising that they've also killed their golden goose.

Meanwhile, bands around the world will take advantage of the ease of musical production and distribution and will do their own stuff and distribute it globally and freely.

And if anyone thinks it won't happen, look what's happening with the open-source software movement . . . .

[Big_Stu]

Yeah, but no-one knows for sure what's around the corner, you can't account for the unaccountable.

I was swapping stories with a guy in the pub last week; he said he likes collecting little stories & such to pass the time on the road. We got to music technology & I mentioned a programme I saw once that was about predictions in Sci-Fi films; Star Trek, Shape Of Things, etc.
It spoke of Flash Gordon, the original Buster Crabbe one, with inter-planetary travel, alien contact, video conversations; people flying using "capes", rocket propelled space-ships, laser beams............... but throughout it all they hadn't reckoned on transistors - so the radios were still bloddy great valve driven monoliths in the corner.
He thought that was sharp AND hilarious & is going to add it to his repertoire.

Being of a certain age, mobile phones, downloads, walking down the road with an earpiece in appearing to talk to yourself but actually making an international call would have been the stuff of "Blake's Seven" dreaming when I was a kid.

[ThomBassmonkey]

It's interesting that people liken the music industry (and labels) to things like Kodak and Jessops. Kodak and Jessops got out-paced by the market and left behind, the things they provided weren't in mass demand any longer. In the music industry, the product is still very much in demand and the industry has kept up to date (the latest technology is downloads and it's easy as pie to get things onto iTunes, Amazon etc, most things that get released go through there). The same goes for the ice analogy used way earlier in the thread.

IMO copyright follows the same kind of logic as patents and intellectual property. If someone's created something that other people want, it should be within their control to do as they want with it, including selling it or sharing it for free. For me it'd be no different if (for example) Microsoft took apart a PS4 when they get their hands on one then reproduced it using their own factories and sold it for less money. Sony haven't had anything go missing but it'd definitely impact on Sony's sales and the effort that went into designing the PS4 by Sony would be a total loss as no one would buy their consoles so they wouldn't see any profit from it.

[icastle]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1361487613' post='1986629']
It's interesting that people liken the music industry (and labels) to things like Kodak and Jessops. Kodak and Jessops got out-paced by the market and left behind, the things they provided weren't in mass demand any longer.
[/quote]

Jessops had a number of issues but their largest problem was retail competition, although they also suffered by trying to maintain their 'pro' background with a mass high street presence.

Kodak just weren't in a position to reinvent their entire business to compensate for the digital market, they simply never thought they'd ever have to.
Ironically, Kodak researchers actually invented the first digital camera but couldn't get senior management approval to develop it further.

Polaroid was another casualty, although somewhat earlier on.
Their entire business was even more volatile, being based solely on instant photography they just couldn't find an alternative market.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1361487613' post='1986629']IMO copyright follows the same kind of logic as patents and intellectual property. If someone's created something that other people want, it should be within their control to do as they want with it, including selling it or sharing it for free.[/quote]

Of course it should; those that feel they have to right or simple desire to do otherwise can dress it up any way that they want - ripping copyright stuff off can't be justified apart from in the distorted mind that thinks that.
The ones that do that would be the first to whine if someone else with a similar philosophy thought that they had a greater right to their new iPod, new bass, new amp, whatever & rather than use online technology to take it, simply just physically took it. That taker in turn would feel able to justify their actions too no doubt.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1361469422' post='1986236']
It's not clear though is it?
[/quote]

The fact downloading is a concern makes it clear. If they had no problems, then they would have no concern with the way things as they are, but quite a lot of campaigning for change in the law is happening. Hence this thread existing, headed by industry led misconceptions about the current state of the law.

[12stringbassist]

The music industry is in the sorry state that it's in for two reasons.

1)
Simon Cowell has too big a hand in selling us identikit / CouldBeAnybody rubbish.

2)
The record companies thought that the CD was the best way to extort bigger money out of us all. Unfortunately, with it being a digital medium, it only took hours to work out how to rip and share exact copies of it. From that point on - one copy went a very long way. The companies only have themselves to blame. They should have made it uncopyable. This is what is making record shops die out (as well as online retail like amazon). I generally like to see what I'm buying first, but rarely get the chance these days. I order new things in advance.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1361407146' post='1985672']...my name's spelled Thom, not Tom...[/quote]

Good evening, Thom, and humble apologies. Thanks for the correction.

No malice intended.

[bigjohn]

I think you've got to view the traditional music distribution system as pretty much defunct / dead. It's death began the 80s and 90s with the advent of MTV / the internet and the lack of interest in the top 40 / top 10 albums and buying the physical items that made that such a massive industry. CDs just prolonged the death because they're smaller and easier / more profitable to produce.

If the internet existed in the 50s and 60s, there's no way we end up with the monolith we call the music industry in the 70s and 80s. And the nomenclature of "file sharing" and "downloading" is laughable. What the hell is the internet if it's not both of those things? For better or worse.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1361471094' post='1986291']
bigjohn you're a total don!
[/quote]

Aww... Fangs...




I think you've got to view the traditional music distribution system as pretty much defunct / dead. It's death began the 80s and 90s with the advent of MTV / the internet and the lack of interest in the top 40 / top 10 albums and buying the physical items that made that such a massive industry. CDs just prolonged the death because they're smaller and easier / more profitable to produce.

If the internet existed in the 50s and 60s, there's no way we end up with the monolith we call the music industry in the 70s and 80s. And the nomenclature of "file sharing" and "downloading" is laughable. What the hell is the internet if it's not both of those things? For better or worse. As was said earlier, the kids don't give a damn. Or similar.

I'm off to find some late night cheese. I'm thinking Roxy Music. I need cheering up after losing to Zenit.

[Mr. Foxen]

"the traditional music distribution system" was hearing it played, figuring how to play it, then playing it to people some of whom would do the same. Music developed through chinese whispers. Now we get 10 million rehashes of Beatles classics with production that makes it sound dated in 5 years.