Frequency specific bass distortion; a dream...

[GarethFlatlands]

A while ago on a thread on here about Wampler pedals we'd like to see I suggested this:-

"[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]A distortion pedal with clean blend and a filter to target the upper and lower frequency ranges of the effected signal."[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Well Tom George (I forget his username on here, I think it's TGFlatline) has started making some very nice looking bass effects in Sheffield at [url="http://www.cogeffects.co.uk/"]http://www.cogeffects.co.uk/[/url] and reckons it's totally do-able. I reckon I'll commission one but I thought I'd ask you guys for your input on the technical details.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]My thoughts were it would effectively split the signal, one side passing through as a totally clean signal and the other into a filter, where you'd set the lower and upper cutoff ranges with 2 controls. The filtered signal then goes into an overdrive or distortion circuit and combined back with the clean signal via a blend control. Want a dirty top end without losing all your lows? Done. Want your basic tone but with a little extra mid-range growl? Entirely possible.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Firstly, is it different enough to what's already available to actually be worth doing or is this how every other dirt pedal works and I'm being thick? Assuming it's different enough from a normal EQ, what frequency ranges should we be looking at?[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Any input welcomed at this stage basically.[/font][/color]

Edited February 22, 2013 by GarethFlatlands

[xgsjx]

Now if you could have the filter controlled with an expression pedal & also have an envelope follower that has a CV in for controlling the amount. Have notched sliders for what frequencies you want to affect, the ability to turn the distortion on or off & have the filter still in place.
Put an octaver at the start & chorus at the end , sell it for less than £300 & I'll buy it!*

That would replace my pedal board as it stands now.


* It has to sound great too.

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1361567642' post='1987844']
Now if you could have the filter controlled with an expression pedal & also have an envelope follower that has a CV in for controlling the amount. Have notched sliders for what frequencies you want to affect, the ability to turn the distortion on or off & have the filter still in place.
Put an octaver at the start & chorus at the end , sell it for less than £300 & I'll buy it!*
[/quote]

I'm not sure about the feasibility/cost of the expression or CV control although it has crossed my mind since I posted that. I guess the ability to turn the dirt on/off is tied to that feature, or would that be useful anyway? And can you explain the CV thing a bit more? I'm a bit clueless about that kind of thing.

It'll probably be internal DIPs for the fine tuning of frequency selection but it's very much at the idea stage at the moment so it's very much up in the air. I like the look of sliders though and they'll be easier for onstage tweaking. I like it!

As for the extra effects, not on the prototype but maybe one day!

[simwells]

I'd be interested in this especially if it helps reduce costs etc if more are ordered at once.

Split and multi band distortions are something I've always liked but found difficult to find, was a big fan of the LoMenzo Hyperdrive for this reason though not the sound and do like my Triumvirate that I currently have (this splits the signal into three and has individual control for each band. What are you thinking of basing the distortion/overdrive circuit itself on?

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='simwells' timestamp='1361568925' post='1987875']
What are you thinking of basing the distortion/overdrive circuit itself on?
[/quote]

No clue but open to suggestions! I like the Harmonic Percolator for guitar but maybe not bass. Rat maybe? I love my Rat.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1361568168' post='1987857']
I'm not sure about the feasibility/cost of the expression or CV control although it has crossed my mind since I posted that. I guess the ability to turn the dirt on/off is tied to that feature, or would that be useful anyway? And can you explain the CV thing a bit more? I'm a bit clueless about that kind of thing.

It'll probably be internal DIPs for the fine tuning of frequency selection but it's very much at the idea stage at the moment so it's very much up in the air. I like the look of sliders though and they'll be easier for onstage tweaking. I like it!

As for the extra effects, not on the prototype but maybe one day!
[/quote]

With the Moog pedals, a lot of the parameters have CV control sockets, so instead of having to stop playing & bend down to turn a dial, you plug an expression pedal into the socket for the parameter that you want & can continue playing. I have a pot on my bass with just a TRS socket attached to it, I take a lead from the bass to the moogs & can adjust whatever I'm plugged into on the fly very quickly.

Here's a long winded vid of my board that doesn't show enough on what the dirt side of things can do...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z73FWmWNQbA

[simwells]

Rat was what I would choose! Especially with multiple clipping options like a Rat Tail (Silicon, LED none or something along those lines).

If you're interested in other band pass distortion pedals for inspiration, there's the LoMenzo Hyperdrive, Triumvirate, FEA dual distortion, Wounded Paw Black Sheep, Owen Gremlin and Markbass' distortion that I can think of for now. (done a fair bit of research on these as you may be able to guess!)

[simwells]

The problem with adding CV control is it tends to make the board size and so pedal much larger and substantially more complicated. Would be interesting to see a future iteration maybe though.

[GarethFlatlands]

I was really looking at the distortion possibilities than the dynamic filter side of it so it's not my priority to be honest, but I won't rule out exploring it.

Interesting idea though, something to bear in mind depending on how the filter controls end up working out. If the range has to be fixed but the centre is variable and CV controlled, then that could be very cool, especially if you can turn the dirt off.

[xgsjx]

A box even the size of a single Moog pedal that has the filter & LPF capabilities without the sequencer section of the Bass Murf, but with (internal) routing possibilities so you can send lows clean & play about with everything else would be an awesome pedal in itself.
Forget the octave & chorus options, they are small enough pedals to not worry about.

[hamfist]

My instant thought was the Ashdown Lomenzo pedal, which I have and like.

My Wounded Paw Black Sheep does a vaguely similar thing, but with 3 knobs, one for bass freq dist, one for mids and one for highs, then mix it all back in to the clean signal with a blend knob. I like it a lot. In fact those are my two main dirt pedals so you can see that I appprove of the basic concept !!

[dannybuoy]

It sounds good in concept but not in practice (to me at least). I've tried the Markbass, Ashdown and Owen pedals. First, the overdrive sound of all 3 was quite weak with not a lot of low end. Then, when you add a big dollop of distorted mids on top of your clean sound, you end up having to turn the overall volume down which makes the low frequencies quieter. Also the band pass filter made it sound a bit like the distortion was running through a fixed wah pedal all the time which didn't sound natural.

[Prime_BASS]

Fea do a dual band distortion pedal. It's effectively a dual stage distortion with band passes.
The lo or hi side can be bypassed completely, along with the lo having a clean blend. You can set individual amounts of dirt on either side too, and IIRC each side has frequency sweeps.
Looks very good on paper, so I'd look at thy for inspiration(as its expensive too)

I too never really big clean blends as you never hear your clean tone properly.

My board is essentially a full range clean with a loop added with just the midrange distorted.

I want to try the fulltone ocd as that has band passes on it.

[hamfist]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1361576416' post='1987981']
Then, when you add a big dollop of distorted mids on top of your clean sound, you end up having to turn the overall volume down which makes the low frequencies quieter. Also the band pass filter made it sound a bit like the distortion was running through a fixed wah pedal all the time which didn't sound natural.
[/quote]

I do agree that you do need an amplification system that is capable of boosting those lows a bit, back up to required levels. Obviously if you are distorting higher frequencies and then blending your clean sound back in, the overball bass frequency output from that will be reduced. Hence the need to re-boost those bass frequencies.
I find the Ashdown pedal works really well for a very light addition of grit in the upper midrange (exactly as Lomenzo tends to use it I believe). For further levels of OD/dist it doesn't really do it for me.
The Black Sheep is a different animal and isn't anything like a bandpass distortion, merely letting you sculpt the bass/mids/treble content of the distorted sound back into the clean tone. It's a much better execution of the concept for me. The key is being able to have control of the overdrive from those 3 main tonal areas. Different balances of which will give hugely varying tones.

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1361576416' post='1987981']
It sounds good in concept but not in practice (to me at least). I've tried the Markbass, Ashdown and Owen pedals. First, the overdrive sound of all 3 was quite weak with not a lot of low end. Then, when you add a big dollop of distorted mids on top of your clean sound, you end up having to turn the overall volume down which makes the low frequencies quieter. Also the band pass filter made it sound a bit like the distortion was running through a fixed wah pedal all the time which didn't sound natural.
[/quote]

Good feedback, sounds like I need to go and listen to the pedals you and simwells mentioned to see if the issues you mentioned are going to be too much of a problem or what can be done about them.

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611137' post='1988151']
The Black Sheep is a different animal and isn't anything like a bandpass distortion, merely letting you sculpt the bass/mids/treble content of the distorted sound back into the clean tone. It's a much better execution of the concept for me. The key is being able to have control of the overdrive from those 3 main tonal areas. Different balances of which will give hugely varying tones.
[/quote]

Looks like the ranges you can distort are fixed on the Black Sheep but I like the flexibility of being able to do 3 separately. It sounds very cool on the youtube video I'm watching at the moment.

Looks like dual band might be the way to go, low end fixed range with one control to dial low end drive to avoid the loss dannybuoy mentioned, and the upper range set by the user.

Edited February 23, 2013 by GarethFlatlands

[hamfist]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1361628421' post='1988480']
Looks like the ranges you can distort are fixed on the Black Sheep but I like the flexibility of being able to do 3 separately. It sounds very cool on the youtube video I'm watching at the moment.

Looks like dual band might be the way to go, low end fixed range with one control to dial low end drive to avoid the loss dannybuoy mentioned, and the upper range set by the user.
[/quote]

Personally I would want at least the 3 range functionality. being able to boost or cut those mids is a key part influencing the character of the drive.

[pantherairsoft]

There is this from WMD which is a beast - http://www.wmdevices.com/acoustictrauma.php

However if you are in Tom's hands then I'd say you've found your answer. Tom (TGFlatline/Cog Effects) is a friggin' genius who needs to start shouting about his abilities far more than he currently does!!!!! Amazing stuff.

http://www.sheponbass.co.uk/blog/new-pedal-builder-on-the-scene-cog-effects.html

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1361629490' post='1988507']
There is this from WMD which is a beast - [url="http://www.wmdevices.com/acoustictrauma.php"]http://www.wmdevices...ustictrauma.php[/url]

However if you are in Tom's hands then I'd say you've found your answer. Tom (TGFlatline/Cog Effects) is a friggin' genius who needs to start shouting about his abilities far more than he currently does!!!!! Amazing stuff.

[url="http://www.sheponbass.co.uk/blog/new-pedal-builder-on-the-scene-cog-effects.html"]http://www.sheponbas...og-effects.html[/url]
[/quote]

The WMD looks cool but we've gone from 1 to 2 to 3 band distortion! Not that it's a bad idea but it's increasing in complexity. Like I said, nothing's decided yet so all this is useful.

I saw your phaser and it looked very nice, you got any sound samples? And that 3 in 1 beast is for a friend of mine, it's now pretty much his entire board apart from a Sansamp.

[pantherairsoft]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1361630128' post='1988519']
The WMD looks cool but we've gone from 1 to 2 to 3 band distortion! Not that it's a bad idea but it's increasing in complexity. Like I said, nothing's decided yet so all this is useful.

I saw your phaser and it looked very nice, you got any sound samples? And that 3 in 1 beast is for a friend of mine, it's now pretty much his entire board apart from a Sansamp.
[/quote]

I don't have any sound samples recorded yet, but I'll try and sort some this week and post them here!

[TG Flatline]

[quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1361629490' post='1988507']
There is this from WMD which is a beast - [url="http://www.wmdevices.com/acoustictrauma.php"]http://www.wmdevices...ustictrauma.php[/url]

However if you are in Tom's hands then I'd say you've found your answer. Tom (TGFlatline/Cog Effects) is a friggin' genius who needs to start shouting about his abilities far more than he currently does!!!!! Amazing stuff.

[url="http://www.sheponbass.co.uk/blog/new-pedal-builder-on-the-scene-cog-effects.html"]http://www.sheponbas...og-effects.html[/url]
[/quote]

Very kind! Looking to meet up with Gareth in the week to discuss this further, if there's enough interest I can look at making a batch once we've finalised details...

[phagor]

Interesting idea. I see that the new EHX Big Bass Muff Deluxe has a switchable crossover section for controlling the frequency range of the distortion:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSLR30N24k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSLR30N24k[/url]

I while back I was looking for something like this and saw that UK-based SFX had a crossover pedal. I've not heard much about it, and the website says "The pedal design is currently under review".

[url="http://www.sfxsound.co.uk/mainpage.asp?page=xm"]http://www.sfxsound.co.uk/mainpage.asp?page=xm[/url]

I don't know enough about electronics, but I think that there's an issue that when a signal goes through a filter, its phase is changed by different amounts at different frequencies. If you then mix that signal with the original one, you get phase cancellation, which can make the sound hollow or weird.

A phase inversion switch on the filtered signal can help, but not for all frequencies. I think some careful filter design might be able to get around this. Or maybe putting the original through an "all pass" filter to get similar phase cancellation.

[phil.i.stein]

i have the FEA dbd which is immense.

the other ones i'd look at are the triumverate and Iron Ether's QF2

[url="http://ironether.com/pedals/QF2/"]http://ironether.com/pedals/QF2/[/url]

[GarethFlatlands]

Well Tom and I met up today along with another local bassist (Nicky Grayson who I'm not sure posts on here) who we thought might be able to provide some useful input. Still in the early pre-prototype stages, here are the very basics of operation.

Signal is split into 2:-
1) Clean signal with bass and treble EQ to mitigate the loss of lows mentioned elsewhere in the thread so it doesn't have to be compensated for at the amp.

2) Filtered signal with lower and upper cutoff frequencies adjustable (this was for ease of build as opposed to a sweepable frequency centre and width and hopefully more flexible) and an internal trimpot for resonance control on the low pass filter. The filtered signal will go to a Rat style distortion circuit.

The 2 signals are then combined with a blend control and an overall level control sets the volume.

Tom was aware of the phase cancellation issues at the upper and lower boundaries of the filtered signal and will deal with them somehow. He's built a ridiculous Meatball clone with 14 external pots and several switches so I can only assume he's got to grips with bass filters to at least some degree! He also had a number of excellent ideas for other functions, as did Nicky but I'm not sure how much to give away at this stage as it's such early days and it's all likely to change. Plus I don't want anyone stealing our ideas

Basically, I've come away thinking this is a good idea which I wasn't sure of as there already seemed to be similar pedals out there and am really looking forward to how it turns out. Whatever happens, thank you everyone for your input and ideas so far, it's all been very useful.

[simwells]

I am going to have to hear/buy one of these once available!