Can small gig venues survive?

[Maverick]

I had a read of this Guardian article this morning, I had a quick search in here and OT but I don't think it's been posted (please point me in the right direction if it has):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/feb/22/toilet-circuit-venues-john-harris

It raises some fair concerns but in my opinion it's too one-sided and only represents the venues' side of the story, so I started writing some of my own thoughts down on facebook, and it turns out I had a few, so I thought I might share here and see what the basschat community had to say:

[color=#333333]Whilst it's a huge shame to see venues go to the wall, I do think a lot of the problem lies with promoters - not all, but many. Far too few actually seem to give the slightest toss about the music, and not many actually seem to put all that[/color][color=#333333] much effort into actually, erm, promoting - the nomenclature certainly leaves something to be desired.

At the same time they often try to shaft their customers, charging over the odds for an evening of poorly matched-up music from - let's be honest, and I'm happy to include myself here - rank amateurs; when I've sometimes paid not a lot more to see some very good professional touring bands with good support. Hell I've even seen Metallica for a fiver, whereas I was once expected to sell tickets for my own band for £12, and in the end none of us bothered on principle (the principle being that I don't like shafting my friends).

They're always happy to bring up the list of now-famous bands that have played their venue, as if that gives them some sort of divine eternal right to insulation from a changing market, when really it was probably just dumb luck in the first place. As long as a band is going to hand over the cash (whether it be from over-priced ticket sales or in many cases their own pocket) that's all that matters to many, and in a lot of cases it is just 'pay to play'.

Throw in rude, unprofessional staff and poor organisation and it's just no fun for anyone. I'm not specifically talking about the Bull & Gate or any other venue listed here and I don't want to point fingers, but that's some of my own perhaps fairly limited experience compared to some, but it seems from a lot of what I read and hear to be many others' general experiences these days across a multitude of venues and promotions as well.

Of course there are certainly some good ones, there are a few I'd happily go back to (The Fiddlers Elbow for instance has alwas treated bands with a decent amount of respect in my experience) or I'd like to one day play going on reputation - and I think university music societies certainly have the right interests at heart (but perhaps aren't appreciated enough for it). However, the majority I'd probably prefer to avoid - both as a musician (although I'll be honest, I'm purely a hobbyist and never expect to be anything more) but perhaps more seriously as a potential paying customer - which overall gives the scene a bad name and makes it harder for the good ones.

There are always going to be bands wanting to get on stage and willing to bend over backwards to do so though, so despite the trend in the long run there's no immediate impetus to change, so the stagnation will continue unless someone innovates, finds a new and better formula that works and provides some fresh competition.[/color]

[Lozz196]

I think your point is spot-on. If the promoters at these venues actually did a bit of research on which bands they were putting on, such as a local band with a following, then other bands on the bill from further out, the venues could be a lot busier. But now it seems that it`s a case of put any bands together, and hope there`s enough of them and their friends to put a couple of quid over the bar, and at a fiver entry (or more) a few people through the doors will cover their "expenses".

Shame really, I remember going to see some cracking gigs in the late 80s, where these venues would be full, every night of the week. Problem is, there isn`t much spare cash about at the moment, so if you want to capture it, realistically it`s going to be at the weekend, so it`s up to venues/promoters to do their homework. Can`t be difficult - back in the 80s they managed it without the internet, whey, with such a wonderful tool to get things right, can`t it be done now.

[scalpy]

Played the Bull&Gate in 1999. Had to take a day off work, travel halfway across the country, with a mini-bus of people from our usual crowd, all of whom were missing a day at work too. I paid for the bus otherwise no-one could be persuaded to come and play twice the price for everything all day in London. Turns out we're on the bill with three other bands all doing the same but from other parts of the country. Hence, absolutely no chance of building an audience as we were head-lining and they were all desperate to leave and travel to their respective towns. Repeat this experience, over and over for several years and I had enough.

Last year I had the opportunity to dep at a gig at the Clapham Grand. Aha, I think, with the age of the internet and social media, this should be a different story. I checked out the other bands on the bill, and in total the views on youtube were in the millions. So I booked a day off again, travelled for three hours, rehearsed all day, sound-checked, and... played to 40 people. And all the other bands were good, entertaining, well-prepared and professionally minded, a good night out in other words, but no-one one was there.

I've always blamed the promoters, no common sense, no creativity. The Catapult Club in New Cross was the best London gig I ever did, but the bill was arranged like Later with Jools. So the audience stayed around, there was a compere, an acoustic set from residents and good in-house visuals. The place was busy and a fantastic experience. But the promoter had some imagination and some flare. Went and played there again, back to straight through the bill, no-one there, lesson learnt finally.

[BigRedX]

What a ridiculous article. It conveniently ignores all the facts that prove it wrong and seems to pretend that there was no pop/rock or any venues for it before 1990.

The simple fact of the matter is that small venues come and go. Certainly those of us who were going to or playing gigs in the 60s, 70s, and 80s will have a similar list of venues from those eras that have gone. However there are always new ones coming along to take their place. AFAIK none of the venues in London that I played at in the 80s or 90s are still putting on live music, and here in Nottingham the small venues that were active for local bands those on their first UK tour back in 1980, are not the same venues that exist today. And if anything there are more decent venues here today than there were back then.

Those who are older than 30, will know that the "Camden Scene" didn't exist before Britpop in the 90s and based on what had happened before, it was never going to last. The only surprise is that it's take so long for the focus to move on to another area.

I think a lot of these venues are stuck in the past, and are failing because they don't see it. The Joiners Arms in Southampton may "pride itself on its PA", but with advances in amplification and speaker systems, most bands don't need a 70s/80s style huge rig for a 200 capacity venue. A good "vocal +" PA will be easier to use and TBH the majority of the time sounds far better. Playing for free (or even paying to play) might have been an option in the past when the gig was a promotional tool that got you in front of A&R men etc. but now the gig is the "product", so it's hardly surprising that bands want paying. The scene has moved on, it appears a lot of these venues haven't realised this yet.

Themed evenings are definitely the way to go. With a bit of luck we'll start to see the end of "promoters" putting on 4-5 bands who have nothing in common other than the desire to play a gig in London. Audiences that stay for the whole evening are better for both bands and venues rather than a revolving handful that come and go with each band that plays. It's obvious. Bands that are able to entertain their audiences are going to be the ones that can get gigs, and venues and promoters that do more than simply provide a space for a gig that sells alcohol will be the ones that stay in business.

As I keep saying in these threads, from where I'm stood the live scene has never been healthier. If we took every offer that came our way we could be playing at the very least once a week, and all of those would at a minimum cover our travel expenses. Not bad for a band who've only been going for a couple of years. It helps that we're part of a identifiable scene, but it shows that there still are good gigs being put on at decent venues run by promoters who are enthusiastic and can do more than arrange for a handful of bands to be a pub on a particular evening.

[Truckstop]

There's no more venues.

Nearest place to me that has original bands on a regular basis is an under-18's youth club. All the music pubs around here have been taken over by cover bands except for a couple of lonely open-mic nights.

Other than that, I have to go into London; £20 on trains, £4 pints, couple of hours travelling etc etc. It stops becoming a good night out for me especially if I'm going to a small club to see bands that I know nothing about.

I think the main problem is, is that with the Internet, people can see if the band are good or not before bothering to go and see them. And the fact is, is that a lot of small bands that play small clubs aren't worth going to see!

Venues need to find a way to get regulars to the venue. Not just people that follow each individual band, but people that will come to that venue week in week out. That's where the trick lies.

Truckstop

[Musky]

While it's always sad to see a venue disappearing the article has missed the reality what is going on in London, which is the migration of venues rather than the disappearance of them. Lots of venues have popped up in the Shoreditch/Dalston/Hackney area, and venues for small bands in the more central areas are drying up. The West End is now almost totally devoid for these types of venue. The high demand for residential properties in central London is driving many businesses to more far flung locations where rents are cheaper and running a business more viable.

It's obviously more of a problem for those living in areas with a smaller number of venues catering for original music, where the loss of a venue can have a major impact, but for London it's not such a problem.

[chris_b]

The recession and resultant lack of cash, cheap booze from supermarkets, entertainment on the internet, an apathetic population when it comes to live music and badly run breweries are all taking their toll, but we see venues that are under greater threat from local council noise orders and stroppy neighbours because of loud bands and noisy punters.

[Prime_BASS]

[sup]it's all crap.[/sup]
[sup]Majority of bands doing it wrong and majority of venues doing it wrong.[/sup]

[sup]we've been doing it wrong for ages but still manage to get good gigs, albeit not regular and it takes a bit of persuading.[/sup]

[Roger2611]

I have to agree with a lot of the comments about the overhyped experience of playing the likes of the Bull and Gate back in the 90's I found it quite frankly a soul destroying experience but I think that said more about the London thing than promoters in general, we played Cambridge's Boat Race, Leicester's Princes Charlotte, Reading's Alley Cat and a few others always as a support to a local band with a good following and always played to good crowds.

I have to say we are now along way from that type of scene and am actually quite thankful that covers bands seem to be in such demand

[leadubblebass]

Venues do get attacked from all side these days and once they have gone- they w ont be replaced.
A story to lift the heart My local put up a sign advertising "Live music from 3am" A council official spotted this, put together a dedicated team to launch a
covert sting operation. A few minutes after 3 o clock in the morning the pub was raided To find the landlord asleep and the punters long gone.
If only they had turned up 4 hours before when they could have heard the closing number of the band called "3AM"

[mcnach]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1361615659' post='1988237']
I think your point is spot-on. If the promoters at these venues actually did a bit of research on which bands they were putting on, such as a local band with a following, then other bands on the bill from further out, the venues could be a lot busier. But now it seems that it`s a case of put any bands together, and hope there`s enough of them and their friends to put a couple of quid over the bar, and at a fiver entry (or more) a few people through the doors will cover their "expenses".
[/quote]

absolutely, nail on the head hit, hard.

I have developed a nervous tic whenever I hear the word promoter... I start growling.

There are some decent ones, yes, fortunately. But for each decent one there are dozens of chancers, and they simply try to get many bangs (regardless of following, style or ability) to play, hoping each will bring their mates. That's a sad state of affairs, and that is not a promoter. I think that kind of gig has its place... but if I were a promoter, I would try to get bands who have a certain draw as the main attractions, and then add some other bands that I think are good and compatible and a bit of an unknown quantity in terms of their draw...
BUt that requires a bit of research, and these "promoters" don't like to work... they just want to hire a venue and collect money at the end of the evening.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1361626251' post='1988442']
The recession and resultant lack of cash, cheap booze from supermarkets, entertainment on the internet, an apathetic population when it comes to live music and badly run breweries are all taking their toll, but we see venues that are under greater threat from local council noise orders and stroppy neighbours because of loud bands and noisy punters.
[/quote]

Chris's post has pretty much summed it up - a lot of truth in this.

[mtroun]

Only journalists could romanticise the toilet circuit, because of the street cred associated with catching future superstars before they hit the big time.

I don't see journalists snooping around toilet venues when it's just bands playing to their mates on weeknights, which is unfortunately the extent of 'promotion' offered by promoters, as mentioned above. Journalists are only likely to go to the kind of toilet gigs when bands have already built up a good following and are about to break into the mainstream.

Since I mostly play jazz these days, I'm used to playing to a small, specialist audience but unfortunately the toilet circuit is all about exploiting musicians' friends and getting them to buy the usually awful lager in their shabbily maintained venues.

OTOH, it is upsetting how most of the pubs that bother with cleaning, decorating and serving decent drinks seem to be phasing out live music in favour of big screen TVs showing sport. You can watch TV at home with a beer, how many people can watch a live band at home with a beer?

[JTUK]

My attitude is, if you can't fund the gig it isn't worth doing, 99% of the time.
That applies to the venues who should know and have a market and be very active at building one.

Breweries around here see fit to 'invest' in a music scene as they benefit massively from it.
No one said it is easy, but i can pay off...even in this day and age

[steve-bbb]

1999

'just too good'

so telling

on so many levels