Mics for bass, and other stuff too.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1361895889' post='1992641']
I just emailed the Karma people, as the mics on their own have $26.95 shipping, which is fair enough. If you then add two mic holders designed to go with the bullets (at $2 each), the shipping price jumps to $69.95! Which is mental and presumably a glitch.
[/quote]

Weird, that'd be that Amerrrkin Math I think...

[51m0n]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1361895889' post='1992641']
I just emailed the Karma people, as the mics on their own have $26.95 shipping, which is fair enough. If you then add two mic holders designed to go with the bullets (at $2 each), the shipping price jumps to $69.95! Which is mental and presumably a glitch.
[/quote]

The two mic set includes the clips as well:-

[i]Includes 2 Mics, 2 Mic Clips
Extra Mic Clips Can Be Purchased As Well[/i]

From:-
[url="http://www.karmamics.com/shop/K-Micro-Matched-Pair.html"]http://www.karmamics...tched-Pair.html[/url]

Edited February 26, 2013 by 51m0n

[MiltyG565]

I need to learn these things anyway.

[Zenitram]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1361897696' post='1992691']
The two mic set includes the clips as well:-

[i]Includes 2 Mics, 2 Mic Clips
Extra Mic Clips Can Be Purchased As Well[/i]

From:-
[url="http://www.karmamics.com/shop/K-Micro-Matched-Pair.html"]http://www.karmamics...tched-Pair.html[/url]
[/quote]

God I'm so full of stupid sometimes. I proof read for a living as well, you know.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1361897435' post='1992679']
Milty you are overcomplicating this I think. You dont need a room mic, its going to add a world of hurt for you regarding phase issues. If you dont already know about how to go abou tsolving this sort of thing, or even know how to recognise it, then you need not to be worrying about a third source.

You need a decent two channel USB audio interface.

Get a decent DI, ignore the amp, DI the bass.

I've recorded albums without a mic on the bass cab, its not a necessity unless you are using an overdriven sound (nothing deliberately overdriven in the samples you have put up), and at your stage I would recommend simple first and foremost.
Mic the cab with one mic, get it in phase with the DI.

If you are going for some amp derived growl though mic the 115, a 57 would be fine, use the DI for everything below about 200Hz, and the mic above that. Sort that out at mixdown though, not when tracking, you havent got the set up to allow you to make that kind of critical decision during tracking. However if you arent using an overdriven bass sound then dont even bother with the mic.
[/quote]

this. unless you are recording a band, you need no more than 2 inputs.

i record everything at home, bass, vocals, etc and only use my 2 input interface, i use a bigger one for live recording, but if you are doing some bass stuff at home, just di the bass then get some free cab emulators.

if you are only trying to learn, don't over complicate it, you can easily pick up a line 6 device for about 60 quid, and it will come with a free version of podfarm usually which will let you come up with amp and cab sounds on the pc.

if you over complicate it at this stage, you'll spend more time fighting with it than recording with it.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1361897874' post='1992702']
God I'm so full of stupid sometimes. I proof read for a living as well, you know.
[/quote]

Bwahahahahahahhhaaaaa!!








Sorry

[paul_5]

I've had good results using an SE2200 and the DI from my amp. SE amps seem to punch way above their weight.

http://www.seelectronics.com

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1361898790' post='1992722']
this. unless you are recording a band, you need no more than 2 inputs.

i record everything at home, bass, vocals, etc and only use my 2 input interface, i use a bigger one for live recording, but if you are doing some bass stuff at home, just di the bass then get some free cab emulators.

if you are only trying to learn, don't over complicate it, you can easily pick up a line 6 device for about 60 quid, and it will come with a free version of podfarm usually which will let you come up with amp and cab sounds on the pc.

if you over complicate it at this stage, you'll spend more time fighting with it than recording with it.
[/quote]

I'm not just doing it to learn though, i'm doing it to record an EP too.

Ok, maybe i'll ditch the 2 amp idea.

[Ramirez]

If I was looking for a mic to cover bass cab, acoustic and vocals for £150 I would almost definitely be looking at a large diaphragm condenser. I use a Studio Projects B1 (around £80) for all those 3 scenarios - often by choice and not by necessity. The Audio Technica AT2020 (£80-ish again) is also very highly regarded as a budget mic, though I've never used one.
I might be wrong here, but I'm sure I read somewhere that an AKG214 is more or less 'half' of a 414 - i.e a 414 that can only function in cardioid mode, which is most probably what you need anyway. They're around £250 however.

I really like condensers on bass cabs - you're very unlikely to encounter problems unless you're recording at silly volumes. Bear in mind that dedicated 'bass drum' mics and the sort often have a rather fierce EQ engineered into them. Personally I don't tend to like them for recording (on bass drums or bass cabs), though they can sometimes be useful live for a 'standard' live bass drum sound.
Large diapghragm condenser are almost always the go to for vocals, so you'd be covered there as well. Small diaphragm are perhaps slightly more in favour for acoustic guitar, but it's a matter of preference more than anything (small diaphgragms give a slightly more accurate sound, but this isn't always what's needed. I often prefer using large diaphragm condensers on acoustics.

A decent large diaphragm condenser really will have you covered for bass, acoustic and vocals. The same could be said about a small diaphragm though (I'd recommend the Rode M3 on a budget), but people seem to prefer singing into a larger mic!

Aled

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361900378' post='1992760']
I'm not just doing it to learn though, i'm doing it to record an EP too.

Ok, maybe i'll ditch the 2 amp idea.
[/quote]

this is my point, i'm also recording an ep, and the only thing i am using a mic for is singing
with home recording you don't need an elaborate set up.

the more mics you have and the more connections, the harder it is to get the right tone on the input and the harder it is to mix it all.

you also have to consider, unless the room is treated, as you are saying it isn't, then miccing amps is going to be more of a hassle than success, you will get best results from running direct.

i'm not meaning to sound argumentative, but if you want to record an ep you have to see the fun in it, over complicating will strip the fun out

sometimes keeping it simple is the best option

[Zenitram]

But then again don't rule out the fun you can have doing stuff like mikeing amps up in the bathroom.

[Dave Vader]

I've done a bunch of recordings using no more than an sm57 and an sm58. The vocals are not as nice as they could be, but for everything else these two work just fine. Only reason I have both is they are leftovers from my old PA rig when I used to do PA hire for a (not very good) living. Otherwise I would just have the 58 and take the pop shield off

Quite tempted to get one of them things skol has cos he gets great results with it.
I've also got a focusrite saffire pro24 for an interface, does 4 inputs at once (which I sometimes need for one of my more interesting instruments) and sounds great. Set me back 250 though, and may not have been worth it for what I have been doing with it.

And yes, I have put my old vox guitar amp in the bathroom and distance mic'd it a few times, it sounds excellent. As was the session I did in the kitchen while it was being rebuilt and gutted. Crazy reverbs.....

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1361909921' post='1992995']
i'm not meaning to sound argumentative, but if you want to record an ep you have to see the fun in it, over complicating will strip the fun out

sometimes keeping it simple is the best option
[/quote]

Over-complicating stuff is my fun.

[MiltyG565]

Also, we just got a new bathroom in. It's bigger, and everything is tiled

[discreet]

Another vote for the Sennheiser MD 421, mainly because one was used recently to record my bass... sounds very good indeed.

[51m0n]

If you want to sound good keep it simple.

You don't have the room treqtment for clever mixing nor tje monitoring solution nor the seperation.

I've tracked hundreds of songs. If you wqmt a gteat sounding guerrilla recording then you have to keep the tracking very sttaight forward.

[51m0n]

Large diaphragm condenser mics are by their nature coloured. Cheap ones in a less good way. Small diaphragm condensers are less coloured.

Stick to a cheap SDC for most sources. Use the LDC for the couple of headline instruments , ie lead vocal and one other - the final result will benefit from this approach.

If you colour everything the same you may as well be in monochrome....

Edited February 27, 2013 by 51m0n

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1361922838' post='1993277']
If you want to sound good keep it simple.

You don't have the room treqtment for clever mixing nor tje monitoring solution nor the seperation.

I've tracked hundreds of songs. If you wqmt a gteat sounding guerrilla recording then you have to keep the tracking very sttaight forward.
[/quote]

Erm, were you at the pub when you wrote this by any chance?

[51m0n]

Fat fingers and a phone that thinks it's cleverer than it actually is - sorry!

[MiltyG565]

But if i was just to mic the cab up, then room treatment wouldn't matter too much, would it? I mean, it wouldn't pick up that much of the room sound if i used a cardioid mic surely? Maybe i'm entirely wrong.


[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1361923274' post='1993284']
Large diaphragm condenser mics are by their nature coloured. Cheap ones in a less good way. Small diaphragm condensers are less coloured.

Stick to a cheap SDC for most sources. Use the LDC for the couple of headline instruments , ie lead vocal and one other - the final result will benefit from this approach.

If you colour everything the same you may as well be in monochrome....
[/quote]

Well, that's pretty much why i like using my bass heads, they colour the tone in a good way, and make it nice and warm.

[MiltyG565]

I might even be able to get a decent room to record in.

[RockfordStone]

it will have an effect, maybe not a massive amount, but it will do.

you have also said that you're room isn't carpeted? that two will have a knock on effect. basically you'll have reflection city going on, unless you can get a better room.

but as said before, keep it simple, DI the bass. there are plenty of bits of software which can allow you to add cab and speaker sound in using impulses. they are by no means the perfect article, but if you can get good ones they do add a nice colour to the tone.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1361956841' post='1993478']
it will have an effect, maybe not a massive amount, but it will do.

you have also said that you're room isn't carpeted? that two will have a knock on effect. basically you'll have reflection city going on, unless you can get a better room.

but as said before, keep it simple, DI the bass. there are plenty of bits of software which can allow you to add cab and speaker sound in using impulses. they are by no means the perfect article, but if you can get good ones they do add a nice colour to the tone.
[/quote]

I am quite a perfectionist is the problem. I'm kind of regarding this as a high priority now, and i want to do it right. The final recordings aren't going to be for putting on soundcloud, or the composition competition, but to be given to and sold to people to listen to. Whether people want to buy or listen is another thread.

[51m0n]

All the more reason to get it right.

If you mic the cabinet within a few inches of the cone then the room wont make much difference. It will still make some difference though.

However we were talking about an LDC a few feet back off the cab. At that point you are introducing a huge amount of room into the sound that that mic picks up.

There is such a thing as critical distance in recording. This is the distance from the source in a room that a mic on that source picks up the reverberation from the walls of the room as loudly as the original signal, any further away from the source and the mic is picking up more room than source. It sounds like crap on almost everything to do this unless you want to do it as an effect. On a bass it woudl be an absolute disaster.

So, you want to mic closer than the critical distance, with an omni mic or fig 8 mic you need to be a maximum of half the distance from the critical distance to the source. With a cardioid mic you can get away with 2/3rds of the critical distance.

However in a little untreated room with parallel walls (hmmmk abedroom perhaps) you will find the workable distance is as little as 2 or 3 feet, quite often far less. You find the critical distance by setting up your source to be playing sound and moving the mic away from it whilst watching the meters. When the meters stop getting lower as you move away (and even get higher) you have hit the critical distance.

If you close mic a cab you will not get the sound of the cab you will get the sound of the cone, or port, or tweeter, whatever you are closest too (volume follows the inverse square law remember, for every 2 timesfurther away from a source you get the volume drops to a quarter of what it was). You can even get phase issues between the different components of the cab since you are so close to them, they dont necessarily behave the same at 1 inch as they do at two feet. So you close mic a cone, which means you aren't getting the bottom octave of your cab, since that comes from the port. So you need to fill that in.

A second mic is one way, a DI is a better way (it isnt suffering from the inherent issues of port tuning favouring certain frequencies for a start). A blend of mic'ed cone and DI is without doubt one of the most often used, tried and tested ways of capturing the grind and colour of an amp with tight full bass. Hundreds of engineers have come to this conclusion over years nad years of educated trial and error. You still have to get the phase bang on between the DI and the mic, but that isnt too hard to do.

Now introduce your LDC room mic in anything but a stella room and it will not add good things to the sound. It will add complication to the setup, it will add nothing but bad. For a start to get away from phase issues it needs to be at the very least 3 times further away than the close mic, which to get in phase with the DI could easily be as far as 6 inches off the cone, so now you are backing up the 'room' mic to around 18 inches to 2 feet, or perilously close to your maximum range before critical distance comes into play, and you will be getting a very roomy sound from that mic. Roomy sounds utterly arse on bass.

Trust me. I've done a tonne of this stuff for years and years (Jeez nearly a quarter of a century now), I've had great results because I've been shown how to do this by excellent mentors with the engineering (sound, acoustic and electrical) know how to absolutely back up their reasoning, and I've can generally capture a bassists tone with one cardiod dynamic mic and a good DI.

You want to do it properly? One amp, one cab, one mic (dynamic cardioid - a 57 or 58 or Senn e835 will be fine), one DI (a decent cheap DI box for a recording would be a BSS Ar133, at about £110), in phase (so important!). That is as properly as you can do it with your current setup.

Edited February 27, 2013 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

Also your first recordings will be almost certainly be pants, dont think for a minute you are going to light the world up on your first attempt to capture bass really well, its not that easy

Work at it and you will get better at it, it isnt going to happen over night, there are so many variables here, for one thing you seem determined to add more than you need. This will only make it sound worse....