Do you reckon you could write a hit pop song?

[xilddx]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362527878' post='2001021']
I think most chart stuff is to cash up and relies more on the promotion than the skill of songwriting , find a formula, promote the bejesus out it and nail its hat on. lyrics and tune follow the promotion and sycophancy of the providers of airtime/press/reviews etc.
I think a lot of people could write a hit tune, whether they have the influence to make it a hit is a completely different story.
[/quote]
So what's one of the formulae then in your opinion? And how do you think they are arrived at?

Jazz is highly formulaic isn't it?

Edited March 6, 2013 by xilddx

[lurksalot]

No idea about jazz Nige, but Stock , Aitken and Waterman had a factory making hits , was it the quality of the material or the selling of it that really counted ?

[Earbrass]

A lot of it is inevitably about promotion - and having the contacts and influence to plant stories in the press and elsewhere, get the right people to talk about it in the currently favoured media, and generate the required "buzz". Same as in the movie bizz. There will always be the unexpected outsider that grabs the public mood and bucks the trend, for whatever reason (Crazy frog?), but the big payers will always have the advantage. When it comes to understanding what makes mass sales, focusing on the quality of the songwriting, production, performance etc is missing more than half of the picture.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Earbrass

[lurksalot]

I think in reality a pop song is a product , if a producer /writer/label/A&R or, knows their market , they know who carries influence (and enough of it) to make it sell , if they have the contacts to get on the radio 1 playlist , they have a marked advantage over the same song written and produced by us guys and gals.

[peteb]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362527878' post='2001021']


I think most chart stuff is to cash up and relies more on the promotion than the skill of songwriting , find a formula, promote the bejesus out it and nail its hat on. lyrics and tune follow the promotion and sycophancy of the providers of airtime/press/reviews etc.
I think a lot of people could write a hit tune, whether they have the influence to make it a hit is a completely different story.
[/quote]
[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362528997' post='2001038']
No idea about jazz Nige, but Stock , Aitken and Waterman had a factory making hits , was it the quality of the material or the selling of it that really counted ?
[/quote]
Actually, I agree with you to quite a large extent but you must admit that a lot of the big American Rn'B hits are very well crafted pieces of music, whether you like them or not...

[lurksalot]

it is perfectly plausible that quality music 'makes it' and becomes a massive hit, but musical taste is only arbitrary in the case of pop , the market will design and influence what styles are 'in',and the market is effectively what is promoted best. the net is a fantastic freelance alternative , but even then it relies on a bit of savvy in promotional techniques and lots of legwork to get anywhere no matter the quality of your work

Edited March 6, 2013 by lurksalot

[peteb]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362529352' post='2001042']
A lot of it is inevitably about promotion - and having the contacts and influence to plant stories in the press and elsewhere, get the right people to talk about it in the currently favoured media, and generate the required "buzz". Same as in the movie bizz. There will always be the unexpected outsider that grabs the public mood and bucks the trend, for whatever reason (Crazy frog?), but the big payers will always have the advantage. When it comes to understanding what makes mass sales, focusing on the quality of the songwriting, production, performance etc is missing more than half of the picture.
[/quote]
Good post and very true, especially in this country - witness the charts dominated by X Factor dross, etc. Possibly less so in the US??

It is quite possible that the OP would turn his hand to writing a potential mega hit, but would he be able to place it with the right artist or production team? I would imagine that it is quite a difficult scene to break into and requires more than just talent.

It is no surprise that the OMD guy used his knowledge & contacts in the business to create a naff pop act that made lots of money. He was in a position to do so but would the OP be, regardless of how well crafted his potential hit songs might be??

Edited March 6, 2013 by peteb

[gjones]

I'm acquainted with a few people who have written hits.

One is a guy whose band went on to sell millions in the 70s and the single he wrote got to number 9 in the UK charts. He then left just before the band went mega and ended up doing cabaret in butlins the rest of his life.

Another had two No 1 hits. The first was a novelty hit in 1981 which got to No 1 in the UK and around europe. It sold 5 million copies. The second was a Xmas song which went to No1 in 1985 and still sells a decent number of copies every Xmas since it resurfaced as an mp3 download.

The last had their song get to 20 in the US billboard hot 100, to No 1 in the US adult pop charts and 28 in the UK. It also got a grammy nomination in 2007.

None of the above songs have anything in common other than the writers had written hundreds of songs previously which didn't get to number 1 (because they were pretty rubbish).

The moral of this story is, you have to write a lot of stinkers before you write the one that's going to be a hit. You know what they say about an infinite amount of monkeys given an infinite amount of time. So you better start churning them out now! Chop! Chop!

Edited March 6, 2013 by gjones

[the boy]

[quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1362502298' post='2000304']

So no, I couldn't write a hit pop song, and even if I could, I definitely lack the industry contacts and experience to get it recorded, as do most people.
[/quote]
This, it's not what you know it's....................

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1362550090' post='2001092']
This, it's not what you know it's....................
[/quote]

The way that you know it?

[Judo Chop]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1362551580' post='2001098']


The way that you know it?
[/quote]

And that's what makes a hit

[JTUK]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362528997' post='2001038']
No idea about jazz Nige, but Stock , Aitken and Waterman had a factory making hits , was it the quality of the material or the selling of it that really counted ?
[/quote]

The gay market...at first....pre Waterman.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362528997' post='2001038']
No idea about jazz Nige, but Stock , Aitken and Waterman had a factory making hits , was it the quality of the material or the selling of it that really counted ?
[/quote]

And Stax (bloody fat-cat bankers eh?) . . . and motown. Probably some others as well.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362521181' post='2000865']
I don't think pop gets the respect from musicians that it deserves, it is not easy, and it's usually misjudged by the cognoscenti. [/quote]

Do Bernard Matthews Turkey Twizzlers get the respect from chefs that they deserve?

Creating a commercially successful product that reaches a mass market undoubtedly requires skills that most of us don't possess - many try and only a few succeed. But we should understand that those are not necessarily the same skills required to create a quality product. Most people with a love of cooking are not trying to emulate the success of the mass producers, they are engaged in an entirely different project for entirely different reasons, and to tell them they should have more "respect" for the creators of successful mass-market food products would be just plain silly. It's no different with music. The public are in general no more discerning when it comes to consuming entertainment products than they are with food or anything else. Is the Sun a better newspaper than the Independent because it sells more copies? Producing a paper like the Sun takes a lot of skill - these people are very good at what they do and it would be wrong to suppose that anyone could emulate them and achieve similar success. But that doesn't make it great journalism, or mean that people who are interested in quality writing should respect it or try to emulate it. In the field of creative endeavour, it's a great mistake to confuse commercial success with artistic success. Neither is easy, neither is something that just anyone can achieve, but they are different things.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Earbrass

[xilddx]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362572258' post='2001431']
Do Bernard Matthews Turkey Twizzlers get the respect from chefs that they deserve?

Creating a commercially successful product that reaches a mass market undoubtedly requires skills that most of us don't possess - many try and only a few succeed. But we should understand that those are not necessarily the same skills required to create a quality product. Most people with a love of cooking are not trying to emulate the success of the mass producers, they are engaged in an entirely different project for entirely different reasons, and to tell them they should have more "respect" for the creators of successful mass-market food products would be just plain silly. It's no different with music. The public are in general no more discerning when it comes to consuming entertainment products than they are with food or anything else. Is the Sun a better newspaper than the Independent because it sells more copies? Producing a paper like the Sun takes a lot of skill - these people are very good at what they do and it would be wrong to suppose that anyone could emulate them and achieve similar success. But that doesn't make it great journalism, or mean that people who are interested in quality writing should respect it or try to emulate it. It the field of creative endeavour, it's a great mistake to confuse commercial success with artistic success. Neither is easy, neither is something that just anyone can achieve, but they are different things.
[/quote]

I LIKE IT!

However, do you think there are ethical problems with mass market music production? I don't. Can anyone say with any real integrity that Destiny's Child are more or less worthy than Weather Report?

[Earbrass]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362572960' post='2001439']
I LIKE IT!

However, do you think there are ethical problems with mass market music production? I don't. Can anyone say with any real integrity that Destiny's Child are more or less worthy than Weather Report?
[/quote]

Depends whether they are battery-reared. I have no problem with pop music - I don't bother it and it doesn't bother me. I have a problem with being told I [i]ought [/i]to respect it and its creators simply because it's commercial successful.

[xilddx]

Firstly, battery cages are for egg production, not meat

Who told you you ought to respect pop music, or any music for that matter?

[D-L-B]

I read the first few pages then had to skip to the end so I don't know if anyone else has said this.

The main skill involved in producing a modern hit pop song is not in the writing, production or even the performance, it is in the marketing. Assuming a basic level of competency in all the other areas it is all down to the marketing.

Look at the charts and tell me that these songs are triumphs of songwriting skill.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362574134' post='2001469']
Who told you you ought to respect pop music, or any music for that matter?
[/quote]

Without wishing to get into an unseemly semantic hair-splitting debate, I think you did:

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362521181' post='2000865']
I don't think pop gets the respect from musicians that it deserves. [/quote]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362575009' post='2001494']
Without wishing to get into an unseemly semantic hair-splitting debate, I think you did:
[/quote]

Oh, it wasn't a demand, just a rail against what I see as a common misperception.

[chris_b]

Apart from the one guy who posted earlier, does anyone here actually know anyone who has written or is still writing hit songs, or have we just got 7 pages of fanciful guesswork?

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1362575847' post='2001508']
Apart from the one guy who posted earlier, does anyone here actually know anyone who has written or is still writing hit songs, or have we just got 7 pages of fanciful guesswork?
[/quote]

I know and play with a couple of people who have in the past, not massive hits, but they got on ToTP and sold a bunch of records. Toy Dolls and Furniture / Transglobal Underground.

[skankdelvar]

We often talk about the hit record-buying public as if it were a homogeneous mass which indiscriminately gobbles up every chart-oriented offering as it falls off the end of the conveyor belt. Quite clearly, this is not the case. Lots of different people buy music for lots of different reasons.

The market for music is sub-divided into larger and smaller groups with different tastes and with different motivations for buying the records they do. For example the average Bieber-buyers are probably about 8 years old and buy the music because their unformed minds are as dazzled by the pubescent prodigy as earlier generations were by Mickey Mouse or books about ponies.

By contrast, pheremone-squirting, beardless young men rally to the stormy clash of Rawk Thunder while fat pale, girls sob into their frilly pillowcases to a soundtrack of wistful, warbly singer-songwriters touting small-bodied acoustic guitars.

See, what we're talking about here is Function. Specifically, that music delivers a user-specific spiritual or emotional outcome. It's an outcome that derives not only from listening to the music but also to the sense of community that surrounds certain artists or genres. When you buy the record, you buy entry to the club. As a convenient bonus, once you're in you can exclude others (see vid below)

Of course, this is more easily discernible in the very young, for they are engaged in assembling their identities from the dressing-up box that our consumer society leaves in the playroom. But the 'purchase > appreciation > community > identity' thing never quite goes away, as proved by the middle-aged tantrums that propel BC's evergreen Jaco / Beatles / Commerce vs Art threads.

So, whether one is Justin Bieber or Uli Jon Roth - what's the formula for a hit record? Identify a discrete market, establish where their little heads are at, ask them what they want and give it to them at so many pence per download.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ_eBTkB-rs[/media]

Edited March 6, 2013 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1362578079' post='2001551']
We often talk about the hit record-buying public as if it were a homogeneous mass which indiscriminately gobbles up every chart-oriented offering as it falls off the end of the conveyor belt. Quite clearly, this is not the case. Lots of different people buy music for lots of different reasons.

The market for music is sub-divided into larger and smaller groups with different tastes and with different motivations for buying the records they do. For example the average Bieber-buyer is probably about 8 years old and buys the music because their unformed minds are as dazzled by the pubescent prodigy as earlier generations were by Mickey Mouse or books about ponies.

By contrast, pheremone-squirting, beardless young men rally to the stormy clash of Rawk Thunder while fat pale, girls sob into their frilly pillowcases to a soundtrack of wistful, warbly singer-songwriters touting small-bodied acoustic guitars.

See, what we're talking about here is Function. Specifically, that music delivers a user-specific spiritual or emotional outcome. It's an outcome that derives not only from listening to the music but also to the sense of community that surrounds certain artists or genres. When you buy the record, you buy entry to the club. As a convenient bonus, once you're in you can exclude others (see vid below)

Of course, this is more easily discernible in the very young, for they are engaged in assembling their identities from the dressing-up box that our consumer society leaves in the playroom. But the 'purchase > appreciation > community > identity' thing never quite goes away, as proved by the middle-aged tantrums that propel BC's evergreen Jaco / Beatles / Commerce vs Art threads.

So, whether one is Justin Bieber or Uli John Roth - what's the formula for a hit record? Identify a discrete market, establish where their little heads are at, ask them what they want and give it to them at so many pence per download.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ_eBTkB-rs[/media]
[/quote]

Great post Skank, and you are dead right. But I still think the variables are significant, and pop music production formulae mentioned in a previous post are still largely hit and miss.

Do you think 'asking them and giving them what they want' works though? Do they know what they want? I doubt I could have told anyone what I wanted from music when I was a nipper, probably couldn't even now. Am I being a bit of a romantic thinking all music has some unquantifiable indefinable magic?

[discreet]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362579174' post='2001582']
Am I being a bit of a romantic thinking all music has some unquantifiable indefinable magic?
[/quote]

No - if it didn't, I wouldn't be interested in it. It's easy to be cynical about commercial music (as it is about everything), but it's that whole thing of creating something, often by happy accident - and apparently out of thin air - that can stir up some kind of emotion in someone that does it for me.

Edited March 6, 2013 by discreet