Do you reckon you could write a hit pop song?

[xilddx]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1362580915' post='2001631']
So why is it that I hate pop music? I cannot stand that mass produced drivel that emanates from the radio when you unfortunately stumble on radio 1 . I'm not saying I hate every song in the charts, but, as a whole, the genre is abhorrent to me. I consider myself as having a very wide taste in music from very heavy metal, through reggae to classical, but can't stand pop sh*te. I can't put my finger on it, but its real. I don't like pop music and I consider myself to be ruled by music. It consumes my life. It's all I do!
[/quote]

It's just your perception. It's when people say pop music is worthless drivel that I start feeling irked. Like it's inferior music with no soul. It simply is not true for the most part. It's prejudice and ignorance and a misplaced sense of 'worthiness'. There are of course manufactured bands for financial exploitation purposes, but even the Spice Girls had some cracking songs.

Music is music. How do you feel about Alain Caron?

[Dingus]

Let me put my cards on the table and say that I love a lot of commercial pop music , and that I enjoy listening to it and enjoy playing it myself in a band situation . I think that a good record is a good record and a good song is a good song , and the artistry which goes into a good pop record is just as valid as that which goes into the most esoteric non - commercial music . I feel that way because it has become increasingly apparent to me over the years that the deliniation between so called serious rock music and commercial pop music is largely an illusion anyway - all music for sale is equally a product , and the means and manner of production are not the defining factors when considering the worth of the final product . Does it make music worthless if it is manufactured by industry professionals of one kind or another rather than by individuals who are creating folk art as part of a cottage industry ? I don't think so . Both are means to a final ends . The great Motown recordings from the 1960s and 70s that are now rightly revered as great works of art were widely dismissed at the time by "serious " music commentators as formulaic and trite pop songs made by a cynically - run hit record production line . Similaly , bands like ABBA , who time has shown to be musical craftsmen equal to any , were rubbished as being throwaway pop artists without real merit . Only time can decide what has lasting worth . , and real quality is recognised sooner or later . Compare the Motown records or ABBA with a lot of the work of the Progressive rock artists of the same era and then judge which was "serious " music .

Edited March 6, 2013 by Dingus

[xilddx]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1362582335' post='2001662']
. I hear what you are saying but I certainly am not ignorant . I know a f*** of a lot about music and I still hate mass produced pop. That music is not good in my book. I give many types of music the benefit because I realise that people have different tastes. Don't misunderstand me, there is still a lot of good music in the charts, but the twee Xfactor puss, is just throw away , forget tomorrow dross!
[/quote]

So how much of the pop field is occupied by 'X Factor dross'? Why do you concentrate on the small percentage of crap, like you get in ALL genres, instead of the good? You are fuelling your own prejudice.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1362582568' post='2001667']
Let me put my cards on the table and say that I love a lot of commercial pop music , and that I enjoy listening to it and enjoy playing it myself in a band situation . I think that a good record is a good record and a good song is a good song , and the artistry which goes into a good pop record is just as valid as that which goes into the most esoteric non - commercial music . I feel that way because it has become increasingly apparent to me over the years that the deliniation between so called serious rock music and commercial pop music is largely an illusion anyway - all music for sale is equally a product , and the means and manner of production are not the defining factors when considering the worth of the final product . Does it make music worthless if it is manufactured by industry professionals of one kind or another rather than by individuals who are creating folk art as part of a cottage industry ? I don't think so . Both are means to a final ends . The great Motown recordings from the 1960s and 70s that are now rightly revered as great works of art were widely dismissed at the time by "serious " music commentators as formulaic and trite pop songs made by a cynically - run hit record production line . Similaly , bands like ABBA , who time has shown to be musical craftsmen equal to any , were rubbished as being throwaway pop artists without real merit . Only time can decide what has lasting worth . , and real quality is recognised sooner or later . Compare the Motown records or ABBA with a lot of the work of the Progressive rock artists of the same era and then judge which was "serious " music .
[/quote]
Spot on.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362581797' post='2001650']
There are of course manufactured bands for financial exploitation purposes, but even the Spice Girls had some cracking songs.
[/quote]

Their first album had some great, great pop music indeed. Apparently a composer duo was responsible, who sadly did not work on the SG's second album.
Hm. Note to self: check out those guys, and see what else they did.


best,
bert

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1362575847' post='2001508']
Apart from the one guy who posted earlier, does anyone here actually know anyone who has written or is still writing hit songs, or have we just got 7 pages of fanciful guesswork?
[/quote]

I know a guy who's written a sh*t load of major hits -
and I worked for several years in the studio of the printers that supplied all the CD/DVD covers for Universal and Sony BMG, being in contact with them a few times a week.
You get to be very cynical, for eg. The covers for all of Michael Jackson's CDs were being re-printed within an hour of his death being announced.
You also get to see the success/failure rate among the wannabe pop stars - even after they've got a deal.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362572960' post='2001439']Can anyone say with any real integrity that Destiny's Child are more or less worthy than Weather Report?
[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362573593' post='2001454']Depends whether they are battery-reared.[/quote][/quote]

I don't know about Weather Report but I bet Destiny's Child have been.

[discreet]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362573593' post='2001454']Depends whether they are battery-reared.[/quote][size=4][quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1362586487' post='2001736'][/size]I bet Destiny's Child have been.[/quote]

Dirty boy!

Edited March 6, 2013 by discreet

[Skol303]

[quote name='D-L-B' timestamp='1362574306' post='2001475']The main skill involved in producing a modern hit pop song is not in the writing, production or even the performance, it is in the marketing. Assuming a basic level of competency in all the other areas it is all down to the marketing.

Look at the charts and tell me that these songs are triumphs of songwriting skill.
[/quote]

Well this song is currently in the charts and I for one think it's pretty damn triumphant...

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200651-laura-mvula/

...it's all a matter of personal taste, of course. But it's a little over-simplistic to say that chart success is "all down to the marketing". Sure a lot of it is generic, production line stuff. But there are always gems amongst the dross. And that's always been the case with pop music.

[mentalextra]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362500067' post='2000247']
Realistically, do you think you could?

It's something I am going to try over the next few months, write what I think are three commercial songs, and sign up to TAXI and see what happens, just for fun
[/quote]

Start off with a Christmas pop song. Some of the greatest names have done one, and the income will put your kids through 'uni'!

Sounds easy.....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7G8cGCN5g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7G8cGCN5g[/url]

Edited March 6, 2013 by mentalextra

[discreet]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1362590377' post='2001814']
Well this song is currently in the charts and I for one think it's pretty damn triumphant...
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200651-laura-mvula/"]http://basschat.co.u...51-laura-mvula/[/url][/quote]

[i]Very [/i]interesting harmonies. And you don't often hear celeste on pop tracks, do you? Or any other track, come to that.
Doesn't sound much like Nina Simone, though, imho!

[Skol303]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1362590807' post='2001826']...you don't often hear celeste on pop tracks, do you? Or any other track, come to that.[/quote]

You've got good ears I hadn't noticed it was a celeste/celesta (whichever) until you mentioned it.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362579174' post='2001582']
Do you think 'asking them and giving them what they want' works though? Do they know what they want?
[/quote]Well, you only have to see what happens when established artists give people what they [i]don't[/i] want. Think of all the bands who sold crillions then decided to have a 'change in direction'. Ten minutes later, they're flipping burgers or posting about 'projects'.

One of the best examples is Garth Brooks - sold 100 million albums of pop-country then decided to adopt the fictional persona of 'Chris Gaines - an emotionally-conflicted rocker'. So GB released a 'rawk' album under the Gaines name and confused the arse off his market. Released one more album in his own right, which pretty much tanked and after a troubled few years has contracted himself to a 5-year Las Vegas casino gig. Career = Toast.

And if there's any further doubt, consider the potential fan reaction here to Victor Wooten releasing a solo accordion album of 1950's German ballads and warbling away on 'Oh Mein Papa'. While various BC-ers would be spewing their ring, way yonder over on AccordionChat they'd be hailing the rise of a new star and talking about revivals and sh*t.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362583174' post='2001680']
Spot on.
[/quote]

Yes it is a very perceptive post. And objective too.

I understand that we all carry our own baggage where stuff like money and art is concerned. But it's the same 12 f***ing notes we all use, so it can't be the music that pisses us off. Our objection is not to pop music but to the people who make it and the purpose to which it's put.

Saw my mate Vincent Van Gogh in a dream last night. He'd used the crillions of cash from the most recent sale of his work to have an ear transplant and he was driving around in a pimped Aston with Keira Knightley in the shotgun seat. Happy as Larry he was, and his pictures looked just the same as they ever did.

[color=#FFFFFF].[/color]

Edited March 6, 2013 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1362596247' post='2001945']
Well, you only have to see what happens when established artists give people what they [i]don't[/i] want. Think of all the bands who sold crillions then decided to have a 'change in direction'. Ten minutes later, they're flipping burgers or posting about 'projects'.

One of the best examples is Garth Brooks - sold 100 million albums of pop-country then decided to adopt the fictional persona of 'Chris Gaines - an emotionally-conflicted rocker'. So GB released a 'rawk' album under the Gaines name and confused the arse off his market. Released one more album in his own right, which pretty much tanked and after a troubled few years has contracted himself to a 5-year Las Vegas casino gig. Career = Toast.

And if there's any further doubt, consider the potential fan reaction here to Victor Wooten releasing a solo accordion album of 1950's German ballads and warbling away on 'Oh Mein Papa'. While various BC-ers would be spewing their ring, way yonder over on AccordionChat they'd be hailing the rise of a new star and talking about revivals and sh*t.



Yes it is a very perceptive post. And objective too.

I understand that we all carry our own baggage where stuff like money and art is concerned. But it's the same 12 f***ing notes we all use, so it can't be the music that pisses us off. Our objection is not to pop music but to the people who make it and the purpose to which it's put.

Saw my mate Vincent Van Gogh in a dream last night. He'd used the crillions of cash from the most recent sale of his work to have an ear transplant and he was driving around in a pimped Aston with Keira Knightley in the shotgun seat. Happy as Larry he was, and his pictures looked just the same as they ever did.

[color=#FFFFFF].[/color]
[/quote]

I had a good few s at this!

Edited March 6, 2013 by xilddx

[Skol303]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1362602877' post='2002092']See maybe we are talking about different styles cos I really like that and wouldn't class it as pop, at least not in the same sentence as one direction or olly murs[/quote]

Good point and me neither! I suppose 'pop' is a very broad genre of music - perhaps the broadest of all. And not all pop is equal

[xilddx]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1362602877' post='2002092']
See maybe we are talking about different styles cos I really like that and wouldn't class it as pop, at least not in the same sentence as one direction or olly murs
[/quote]
Pop is not just X Factor you know. Foo Fighters is pop, Ellie Goulding is pop, Beyonce is pop ..

[steve-soar]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1362529443' post='2001044']
I think in reality a pop song is a product , if a producer /writer/label/A&R or, knows their market , they know who carries influence (and enough of it) to make it sell , if they have the contacts to get on the radio 1 playlist , they have a marked advantage over the same song written and produced by us guys and gals.
[/quote]A pop song is a popular song in the charts, or, a pop song written by someone/people, who want that statment to be popular. Pop is U2, Beethoveen, Beatles, M, Radiohead, Steely Dan, Black Sabbath, Rennie And Renatta, Wings, Piolet, etc, etc, etc, ...

[xilddx]

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1362610902' post='2002279']
A pop song is a popular song in the charts, or, a pop song written by someone/people, who want that statment to be popular. Pop is U2, Beethoveen, Beatles, M, Radiohead, Steely Dan, Black Sabbath, Rennie And Renatta, Wings, Piolet, etc, etc, etc, ...
[/quote]
I think some people forget this, or haven't even considered it. They think pop is crap and unconsciously exclude music that they think isn't crap from the pop genre.

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362609951' post='2002257']

Pop is not just X Factor you know. Foo Fighters is pop, Ellie Goulding is pop, Beyonce is pop ..
[/quote]
I take your point but I am not sure in songwriting terms that they are all the same. I don't think that the way that Dave Grohl approaches writing a song for the Foo Fighters is necessarily the same as the guy who writes Beyonce's material...

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1362612555' post='2002322']
I take your point but I am not sure in songwriting terms that they are all the same. I don't think that the way that Dave Grohl approaches writing a song for the Foo Fighters is necessarily the same as the guy who writes Beyonce's material...
[/quote]
Should they be?

[Earbrass]

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1362610902' post='2002279']
A pop song is a popular song in the charts, or, a pop song written by someone/people, who want that statment to be popular. Pop is U2, Beethoveen, Beatles, M, Radiohead, Steely Dan, Black Sabbath, Rennie And Renatta, Wings, Piolet, etc, etc, etc, ...
[/quote]

As opposed to all that music created specifically to be hated by everybody.

[xilddx]

You know, I'm not sure what the f*** people want anymore. There are people slagging off Def Leppard on here as pop pap, they were NWOBH who evolved instead of the knuckle dragging Saxon. Look at the slagging U2 get, they were amazing when they broke, they evolved as well and get slagged off as being sell-out pop. Van Halen were always pop, just like the Clash.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1362613055' post='2002334']
As opposed to all that music created specifically to be hated by everybody.
[/quote]
You neglect the aspect of people who compose and play and perform purely for their own fulfilment, vanity, need, etc. There are countless successful musicians who are compelled to to this, but have little real self confidence and are troubled people, I would say a high proportion are. Like comics, actors, artists ..

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362612617' post='2002325']

Should they be?
[/quote]
No reason why they have to be - there is pop music and there is pop music!

Your example of Def Leppard is a good one as they kinda crossed over. They went from writing hard rock songs based on riffs and a chorus to writing songs often just based on a simple hook and production techniques, for example 'Pour Some Sugar On Me'.

As a result they hit the big time in a big way, but I would say that approach to songwriting is a long way from the Foo Fighters or most other rock bands! That isn't a value judgement, a good record is a good record no matter how it is conceived ...

[Dingus]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362613096' post='2002335']
You know, I'm not sure what the f*** people want anymore. There are people slagging off Def Leppard on here as pop pap, they were NWOBH who evolved instead of the knuckle dragging Saxon. Look at the slagging U2 get, they were amazing when they broke, they evolved as well and get slagged off as being sell-out pop. Van Halen were always pop, just like the Clash.
[/quote]

I agree with you to an extent , but in the case of all those bands you would mention I would argue that what did for them was the declining quality of the work they produced rather than their percieved commerciality ( or lack thereof in the case of Saxon ) . Their earlier work was commercial in that had a mass appeal by virtue of its' undeniable artistic value , but as the bands themselves or those around them selling the music consciously tried to broaden their mass market appeal they lost the esscence of what gave them their appeal in the first place . U2 and Def Leppard have spent the last twenty years churning out very poor and turgid sounding records and living off past glories . Van Halen haven't made a good record in thirty years , and as for Saxon ...

Edited March 7, 2013 by Dingus