Controlling your sound onstage?

[Chest Rockwell]

The answer to this question may be

1. learn to use your gear/tech

2. nothing you can do, suck it up

but I'll ask anyway, cos I can't imagine I'm the only person that has this problem...

Basically it's onstage sound issues. My gear is an Orange 500w TB and a Geddy Jazz bass. I also use a (Green) Big Muff for distortion and it's mostly on.

Putting aside the OTB 'hot' issue, which I think I've now resolved by buying a £5 30db attenuator (changing the valves didn't help)... my 'clean' bass sound often sounds incredibly thin and 'clanky' onstage. The overdriven sound also seems to suffer from a little too crusty. Basically both sounds lack the phatness that I require. My band is a downtuned stoner rock instrumental band and as I have two overdriven guitars alongside me, the bass NEEDS to be low (I have a feeling that people are gonna tell me I need to peel back on the bass but that doesn't compute).

Even when the onstage/monitor sound is horrific, I'm told by audience members that it sounded fine. It's just very difficult to play like you're knocking holes in mountains when your bass sounds like bees trapped in a jar. when going 'clean' I have to 'go light' on fingering (easy!), because i want to avoid any 'clank' of the strings touching the pickups or neck. that's not my style, I'm a hitter. If it actually sounded out there like it does on stage, I'd stop the tune and get the sound person to fix it, but I just dont know and it paaaains me!

It's annoying cos using my Compact, or the random bass cabs at the two practice places we use, my sounds is big and warm and I can control it easily.

Is there a gadget I can buy, or a technique I can employ, to even out my onstage experience? Am I too overdriven? Too Bassy/tone-y? the Big Muff? onstage monitors too crappy? suck it up? tell the sound guy to 'press the red button'?!?

Help me Obass-Wan, you're my only hope...

[Adrenochrome]

At a guess 2 things:
1. possibly too much overdrive.
2. in a loud detuned band, your onstage sound probably needs to be a bit more middy/trebly to hear yourself properly, as if there's too much bottom end it booms like mad so you might just have to trust that the Front Of House mix is good (I speak from experience).

[BobVbass]

sounds to me that with two overdriven guitars that you need a more clean bass sound to punch through - you're probably getting swamped by loads of fuzz. Get a cleaner sounding amp, push the middle freqs, could also consider swapping the compact for a Super T if you;re very keen. Had the same problem with a band with keyboards

[RandomProddy]

It sounds like a case of getting a decent EQ pedal (or setting the one you have up differently) and perhaps a volume pedal? They're a doddle to use on-stage. Use a Roland FV-60 myself...

Edited March 6, 2013 by RandomProddy

[JTUK]

With two high powered gtrs, there is always a problem with the bass sound being squeezed and the bass ending up with a useable sound rather than desirable.

But if you can't make your rig sound like you want on stage, then maybe the rig is wrong... and it doesn't cut it when the chips are down.
Stages are never a really controlled place at volume and the trick is just to keep everything from toppling over a certain volume point.

Depends on the P.A spec and monitors, but you might have to back off the amp sound and let the mon feed do more work.
The trouble with this is that you might not get the set-up time to make it work.

An unquantifiable problem if the stage sizes vary..

If the FOH is good and assuming you believe this feedback...then talk to the engr and try to get an idea of how he makes it work.
The difference is that he has all feeds to mix and compliment...maybe your bands stage sound is all about the individual with no concern for the overall mon sound...??

[xilddx]

Is your onstage sound your true sound and the FoH engineer is fixing it?

It sounds like your rig is a bit limited perhaps? A Jazz is not what I'd ever consider a mountain-leveller but have you consider fitting a pre-amp to your Jazz? Never mind mountains, an East J-Retro 01 can level a continent. Easy to fit and change battery with no mods to your bass, they have a bypass to passive which keeps your original tone and still works with a dead battery, the lows can be huge and there's mid sweep with cut and boost. It is incredibly versatile and I reckon it could be your solution. [url="http://www.east-uk.com/"]http://www.east-uk.com/[/url]

Other than that, maybe your cabs are not up to the job?

[Low End Bee]

There's only a couple of places I play where the onstage sound is remotely as good as the FOH sound for the punters. The 30 foot curly lead lets me have a dose of FOH on sound checks.
As long as it sounds good FOH and I can hear enough to play well on stage I just accept it and get on with it. Better than the other way around.

[cheddatom]

sounds to me like you could do with a graphic EQ or an active EQ on your bass... You're looking to reduce high mids and increase low mids. You should be able to get a nice punchy sound without making the whole stage boomy.

The problem might be taste though... mostly overdriven and plenty of clank is my kind of tone!

[chris_b]

I've no idea what "downtuned stoner rock" is, but here goes:
Maybe you're not EQing correctly if you can make a TB500 through a Compact sound thin and clanky to need to sort out your EQ. Maybe emphasise the low mids?

When you sound check, unplug all your pedals and get a good "natural" sound first, then add the effects.

If you're clanking you need to raise the strings and/or lower the pickups.

What is an OTB hot issue?

You are asking a lot of just one speaker. I'd be using 2 cabs in your situation. I might even prefer 10’s to 15’s but 2 compacts would be the minimum I’d think would work.

Low bass needs lots of power to produce those notes. I've read that OTB's are a "one trick pony" when it comes to getting a sound. I'd be looking at a more powerful, more flexible amp to give you the tone and headroom you need.

[PaulWarning]

If you want a phater sound maybe you should consider using a P.
On stage sound doesn't matter as long as you can hear what you're playing, as somebody else said get a long lead, or go wireless and go FOH during the sound check, even if you're just using the back line with nothing going through the PA it can sound totally different when you get 30 feet or so away from your rig

[discreet]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1362567089' post='2001332']
If you want a phater sound maybe you should consider using a P.
[/quote]

Beaten to it!

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1362566345' post='2001315']
I've no idea what "downtuned stoner rock" is, but here goes:
[/quote]
It is downtuned rock music made by stoners, so they can't normally distinguish between mountain-levelling low end and a bluebottle trapped in a sash window anyway

[Beer of the Bass]

The Big Muff has inherently mid-scooped EQ and I think the Terror Bass does also (though I've not seen the schematic). I wonder if the combination of the two is leaving a big hole in your sound? There is a simple mod to lessen the mid-scoop on a Big Muff by changing capacitors in the tone stack, which might be worth looking into before you change anything else.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1362567923' post='2001350']
The Big Muff has inherently mid-scooped EQ and I think the Terror Bass does also (though I've not seen the schematic). I wonder if the combination of the two is leaving a big hole in your sound? There is a simple mod to lessen the mid-scoop on a Big Muff by changing capacitors in the tone stack, which might be worth looking into before you change anything else.
[/quote]

Christ, why not just get a POD or something? All that cash and faff for one sound when a digital multi-effects/amp&cab modeling board makes the world of sound one's oyster.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362564557' post='2001274']
A Jazz is not what I'd ever consider a mountain-leveller but have you consider fitting a pre-amp to your Jazz? Never mind mountains, an East J-Retro 01 can level a continent. Easy to fit and change battery with no mods to your bass, they have a bypass to passive which keeps your original tone and still works with a dead battery,
[/quote]

If he's using distortion then a passive bass is probably the way to go. A lot of dirt pedals are designed to work with the impedance of a passive pickup at their input, and don't sound so good with actives.

OP: If you're using a Muff on bass with two distorted guitars you're going to struggle to hear yourself. There's no real solution to this - you're all using distortion so you're all treading on eachothers' toes, your sound is swallowed up in the sound of the guitars and the person who can hear themselves is the person who is loudest.

To get more grunt out of your 'clean' sound you could try wiring your pickups in series (ideally fitting a series/parallel switch so you can swap between the two), this will give you a beefier, louder sound and it's an easy modification to make.

As for your distorted sound, a Muff might never work very well with distorted guitars, you may be better off looking at an overdrive pedal instead. Any Tubescreamer clone would probably be suitable so maybe get a cheap one first (Digitech Bad Monkey is a good candidate) and see how that works out for you.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1362568837' post='2001365']

[b]If he's using distortion then a passive bass is probably the way to go. A lot of dirt pedals are designed to work with the impedance of a passive pickup at their input, and don't sound so good with actives.[/b]

OP: If you're using a Muff on bass with two distorted guitars you're going to struggle to hear yourself. There's no real solution to this - you're all using distortion so you're all treading on eachothers' toes, your sound is swallowed up in the sound of the guitars and the person who can hear themselves is the person who is loudest.

To get more grunt out of your 'clean' sound you could try wiring your pickups in series (ideally fitting a series/parallel switch so you can swap between the two), this will give you a beefier, louder sound and it's an easy modification to make.

As for your distorted sound, a Muff might never work very well with distorted guitars, you may be better off looking at an overdrive pedal instead. Any Tubescreamer clone would probably be suitable so maybe get a cheap one first (Digitech Bad Monkey is a good candidate) and see how that works out for you.
[/quote]

That sort of makes sense to me but aren't there loats of variables with pups and electronics anyway? Would an active bass really mess up the sounds from the dist pedal to an annoying or negative degree?

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1362564903' post='2001286']
As long as it sounds good FOH and I can hear enough to play well on stage I just accept it and get on with it. Better than the other way around.
[/quote]

Must admit, when playing places with FOH, this is my approach as well.

[Truckstop]

If everyone says it sounds fine I wouldn't worry about it.

If I were to change anything though, I'd try and work with a clean bass sound. Drop the muff for a couple of gigs and hear the difference!

Truckstop

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1362569184' post='2001371']That sort of makes sense to me but aren't there loats of variables with pups and electronics anyway? Would an active bass really mess up the sounds from the dist pedal to an annoying or negative degree?[/quote]

Well with pickups you're typically looking at a high impedance signal from passive electronics and a low impedance signal from actives, and yeah it can make a big difference. With some circuits actives just make them sound bad - nasal and unpleasant and weak. With others you don't get the same level of control over the gain as you do with a passive signal.

I guess this is why active electronics are less popular among guitarists than they are among bass players. Actually I don't think I know any guitarists who use actives.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1362573903' post='2001462']
Well with pickups you're typically looking at a high impedance signal from passive electronics and a low impedance signal from actives, and yeah it can make a big difference. With some circuits actives just make them sound bad - nasal and unpleasant and weak. With others you don't get the same level of control over the gain as you do with a passive signal.

I guess this is why active electronics are less popular among guitarists than they are among bass players. Actually I don't think I know any guitarists who use actives.
[/quote]

Thanks mate, understood.

[AnalogBomb]

I've had this happen to me before. I tend to find that my rig/bass set up sounds different at different venues, guess it's got somehting to do with acoustics and stage depth and so on.....

I've always found it best to strip back to basics and get a really sweet, clean tone - literally bass - lead - amp and the add FX later. I've also found the benefit of getting a good pre amp/DI, like a SansAmp, Tone Hammer or Hartke Bass Attack; this way you can pretty much take your sound with you and the FOH engineer can take a DI signall straight out, so hopefully you can be sure that the sound you're hearing on stage is the sound out front. I don't leave home without mine! I also used to use Big Muff and as it was great for adding fuzz, it was pretty rubbish at adding that hardcore distortion - for this I use a Boss Bass OD (the yellow one!)

I've heard about these Auralex Gramma? pads too... don't know if that would help, perhaps you could add more bass without getting the boom. I guess you don't want to throwing money about on a new rig!?

[cheddatom]

you could have a pre-amp or EQ pedal or the like after your distortion pedal, therefore avoiding any impedence issues. I always send my pedal board straight to the desk for the soundman to EQ, and then have a graphic EQ on my amp to set the on-stage sound.

[51m0n]

Perceived "Ooomph" is generally low mid.

It sounds like you are descibing a severe lack of lower mid frequencies in your sound.

But I may be wrong.....

[Phil Starr]

You don't say if you DI or if you have a FOH engineer mixing for the band.

If you are then your FOH sound is nothing to do with what you are doing and you can concentrate on getting the sound you want on-stage. Though if the audience hears a good sound and you can get enough of your sound to play then you might not want to disturb a set up that is basically working.

If what the audience hears is your rig, or mainly your rig with just a bit of PA support, then you are just dealing with room acoustics and are limited by the physics of sound. Because of the long wavelengths of bass a lot of what the audience hears is reverberant sound reflected off the floors, walls and ceilings. By and large this will reinforce the bass for them, but in a large room not so much for you. In the practice room the reflections are completely different so your sound is different. If you spend hours in the practice room getting your tone settings right you will lose that tone as soon as you move your speaker to another room, Don't expect to set up your eq in one room and expect it to be right in another. If you can, get a long lead during the soundcheck and go out into the audience area and listen to how you sound to them. Use your eq to get it right out there, don't set it up for your own benefit and have the audience listen to a poor tone. Be aware also that as more people pack into the room your tone will change.

Room acoustics are a real pain for bassists, you can never really be sure you are hearing what the audience hears.

[Chest Rockwell]

hey all, thanks for all the info, Im gonna have to read it all properly when I get home. For the record tho, I don't generally use the Compact live, there's usually something on stage to play through.

the band (should) sound like this tho..!

[url="http://thorun.bandcamp.com/album/chorus-of-giants-ep"]http://thorun.bandcamp.com/album/chorus-of-giants-ep[/url]