Fender = boring and dull.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1363103651' post='2008541']
You could turn this on its head and I could ask if someone would tell me why my performance would be improved if I were to play a Fender.

I'll give you what I believe to be the simple reason - IT DOESN'T MATTER! A bass is a bass and as long as it's of mechanical and electronic integrity then it will make pleasingly rumbly low notes that make people dance and glue the drummer to the rest of the band.

You know which "camp" I'm in, but I harbour no hate for any brand. Actually, considering the runaround I've been given recently in my attempts to procure a Grabber 3 70s Tribute bass that is fit for purpose (have given up), I'm not in a terrific mood with Gibson USA at the moment either
[/quote]
Yes, nobody's any good because of the bass they play.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1363104121' post='2008552']
Exactly, having a replaceable neck is a stupid idea.

What bassists really need is a bolt-on body bass.
[/quote]
Some Gibsons might benefit from a bolt-on headstock.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363102123' post='2008506']
I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.
[/quote]

From my perception it's not that at all but the other way around.

I'm quite happy for people to play Fenders (or any other make of bass) provided that they realise that there is nothing automatically superior about their choice. If the Fender bass suits you that's great. But don't go telling me that "Leo got it right" or other similar bollocks clichés when if you look at it objectively you'll see that actually all he did was get it slightly less wrong than his competitors of the time.

You can't tell me that changing the neck joint so that it's no longer a massively lumpy thing that gets in the way from the 15th fret onwards isn't an improvement, or redesigning the headstock with an angle so that you no longer have to use string retainers and wind ridiculous amounts of string around the machine head posts to get a decent break angle over the nut won't improve tuning stability and give a more even feel to the compliance of the strings. Also while scaled-up guitar bodies might work if you're a large-boned, well-fed American, for a lot of us in the rest of the world they are too big and uncomfortable.

TBH I never knew there was supposed to be anything extra special about the Fender bass when compared to the other well-regarded electric musical instrument makers until I discovered internet bass forums.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363104038' post='2008548']The question is 'How would WoT (or anyone else) improve his or her performance by using a non-Fender bass?'[/quote]

That would depend on material played and so many other personal preferences that it puts it into the realm of personal taste, which as the Beatles thread (again) showed - having personal taste, unless it agrees with the majority, is barred on this forum & lays the author open to personal attack.

My own opinion on them FWIW is that it's an old-fashioned design, copied so much as to make it passe, with a very limited variance of tone. As has been said often by others over threads, they're boring.

[risingson]

I'm never too bothered by the amount of people who dislike Fender basses on this forum. I'm back to being exclusively a Fender bass player again after a few years of playing other maker's instruments and I'm perfectly happy because I know that my playing and my style suits a Fender bass perfectly, I can do anything that I want to do on a Fender and I'm not limited by genre or 90% of styles.

Frankly the likes of Status, Overwater, ACG etc just do not do it for me but I'm happy to concede that the opposite is true of other people who use this forum, frankly I don't care and the world continues to turn either way.

[Wil]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363099512' post='2008452']
Where you will routinely see a lump of foam stuffed under the strings at the bridge!
[/quote]

Indeed! Although, I prefer a bit of palm muting when the mood strikes me instead.

Endless sustain is for organs...

[jackers]

I own and play a Fender because I like the way it looks, plays and sounds. I would never try to argue that it was better, (or that I was better, for that matter), than a gibson/lakland/sadowsky/warwick/insertbassmanufacturernamehere, or the person playing one of them...it is simply my preference. I have played some wonderful basses from other companies, but Fenders are my favourite, so they are what I stick to. If I find something that suits me better then I will be very happy to change, but so far I haven't.

[wateroftyne]

I think the angle of my question is relevant given the context of this thread.

I also think that Fender users are generally just happy where they are, and don't feel compelled to look down their noses at boutique fans (for example).

Most of the comments seem to come the other way, this thread being a good example.

Or am I wrong..?

As for tone, it's subjective. No-one's ever going to win that one.

[risingson]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363104679' post='2008577']
I think the angle of my question is relevant given the context of this thread.

I also think that Fender users are generally just happy where they are, and don't feel compelled to look down their noses at boutique fans (for example).

Most of the comments seem to come the other way, this thread being a good example.

Or am I wrong..?

As for tone, it's subjective. No-one's ever going to win that one.
[/quote]

I think owners of boutique instruments are probably more compelled to defend and press home the reasoning behind their instrument of choice due to the high volume of Fender players and the possible worry (take this with a pinch of salt anti-Fender camp) that their brand(s) of choice suffer from 'little man syndrome', having to shout louder than everyone else in the room in the hope of getting their opinion across. Just a theory.

Got a new '78 P-Bass coming my way this week, can't bloody wait

Edited March 12, 2013 by risingson

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363104038' post='2008548']
Any dispute over the 'hate' word is irrelevant to the content of the question asked.[/quote]

The problem is that once a question, that introduces an inflammatory aspect to it, is answered - then it does become part of the discussion. As I said, one recent example is the Beatles thread. I lost count of the number of times that posters "couldn't understand [i]players[/i] denying the Beatles influence" & it ran to what? 25 pages? - But yet no-one (so far as I could see) had actually said that they didn't think the Beatles were influential.

This thread is chugging along as nicely as a non-Fender bassline so I wouldn't want any escalation into silly territory as that one did.

[neepheid]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363104679' post='2008577']
I also think that Fender users are generally just happy where they are, and don't feel compelled to look down their noses at boutique fans (for example).

Most of the comments seem to come the other way, this thread being a good example.

Or am I wrong..?
[/quote]

You are wrong. There are plenty Fender owners who wouldn't spit on a Gibson if it was on fire and are quite vocal when it comes to voicing that opinion. There's even a Gibson headstock joke in this thread, and the thread isn't even about Gibsons. Don't talk to me about people looking down their noses, you don't know you're born.

[Conan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363104353' post='2008563']
But don't go telling me that "Leo got it right" or other similar bollocks clichés when if you look at it objectively you'll see that actually all he did was get it slightly less wrong than his competitors of the time.[/quote]

Nice use of tautology there.

Right and wrong are relative terms, each defined by the other. If you are less wrong than everyone else, then you must be (by definition) more right.

Right?

Edited March 12, 2013 by Conan

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1363105563' post='2008591']


You are wrong. There are plenty Fender owners who wouldn't spit on a Gibson if it was on fire and are quite vocal when it comes to voicing that opinion. There's even a Gibson headstock joke in this thread, and the thread isn't even about Gibsons. Don't talk to me about people looking down their noses, you don't know you're born.
[/quote]

OK - ta for that. It's not something I've seen much of, as I don't generally get involved.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363105526' post='2008590']


The problem is that once a question, that introduces an inflammatory aspect to it, is answered - then it does become part of the discussion.
[/quote]

You think it's inflammatory... I strongly dispute that.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1363105621' post='2008592']
Nice use of tautology there.

Right and wrong are relative terms, each defined by the other. If you are less wrong than everyone else, then you must be (by definition) more right.

Right?
[/quote]

The way I read it is that by implication "Leo get it right" means that there was no need to even think about looking at improving the bass guitar after the release of the Jazz bass in 1959/60. Instruments can always be improved upon - in fact pretty much every other instrument in use today has evolved through many different stages to its present incarnation.

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363104353' post='2008563']
From my perception it's not that at all but the other way around.

I'm quite happy for people to play Fenders (or any other make of bass) provided that they realise that there is nothing automatically superior about their choice. If the Fender bass suits you that's great. But don't go telling me that "Leo got it right" or other similar bollocks clichés when if you look at it objectively you'll see that actually all he did was get it slightly less wrong than his competitors of the time.

You can't tell me that changing the neck joint so that it's no longer a massively lumpy thing that gets in the way from the 15th fret onwards isn't an improvement, or redesigning the headstock with an angle so that you no longer have to use string retainers and wind ridiculous amounts of string around the machine head posts to get a decent break angle over the nut won't improve tuning stability and give a more even feel to the compliance of the strings. Also while scaled-up guitar bodies might work if you're a large-boned, well-fed American, for a lot of us in the rest of the world they are too big and uncomfortable.

TBH I never knew there was supposed to be anything extra special about the Fender bass when compared to the other well-regarded electric musical instrument makers until I discovered internet bass forums.
[/quote]

Well firstly , Leo Fender didn't get it slightly less wrong than his competitors at the time because there were no competitors - he invented the electric bass guitar as we know it . Leo got it right - the Fender is a stunningly brilliant piece of design , especially considering that only template Leo was working from was his own imagination . The neck joint doesn't get in the way to any debilitating degree , especially compared to the adjustment to technique a bass player needs to make to play in the upper registers on a double bass . There is nothing wrong with the break angle of the strings either - the string tension on a Fender feels very comfortable with most strings . And a compact body is very often less ergonomic and less comfortable than a Fender shaped and sized body . It seems to me like you are finding faults that don't exist to satisfy your own agenda in this respect . If you don't like Fenders and find them ungainly and uncomfortable then you are not alone in that and it is a perfectly valid point of view - basses are very subjective things and we are all physically different as people - but none of that should detract from Leo Fender's brilliance and the enduring usefulness of his creations .

Edited March 12, 2013 by Dingus

[Conan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363106048' post='2008602']
The way I read it is that by implication "Leo get it right" means that there was no need to even think about looking at improving the bass guitar after the release of the Jazz bass in 1959/60. [/quote]

That's not how I read it, I must admit. I take it to mean that even if Leo had a crystal ball and could see how music would evolve over the next 60 years, he still couldn't have designed/made a range of instruments that were [i]more[/i] suitable for use than the ones he came up with. Just look how many guitarists use Strats, for example. They can't all just be Fender sycophants - there must be something about the Strat that makes it still appeal to the grandchildren of the guitarists that first had access to it...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1363105563' post='2008591']
You are wrong. There are plenty Fender owners who wouldn't spit on a Gibson if it was on fire and are quite vocal when it comes to voicing that opinion. There's even a Gibson headstock joke in this thread, and the thread isn't even about Gibsons. Don't talk to me about people looking down their noses, you don't know you're born.
[/quote]
I made the (some) Gibsons headstock joke but I've actually got nothing against Gibsons, have owned Gibsons, and often pop in at the Last Bass Outpost to get the latest news.

I was in a studio with a friend's band once. Their bassist was using an EBO. When the engineer saw it he said 'I can't record a Gibson'. Ridiculous.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363104425' post='2008565']
That would depend on material played and so many other personal preferences that it puts it into the realm of personal taste, which as the Beatles thread (again) showed - having personal taste, unless it agrees with the majority, is barred on this forum & lays the author open to personal attack.
[/quote]
I thought the Beatles thread (everytime) showed exactly that people could and did say what they wanted to say and the nay-sayers were equally as vociferous and the yea-sayers. I really can't see that anything is barred and if and when there are personal attacks they come from both sides.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363104425' post='2008565']
My own opinion on them FWIW is that it's an old-fashioned design, copied so much as to make it passe, with a very limited variance of tone. As has been said often by others over threads, they're boring.
[/quote]
Old-fashioned design, yes, and copied so much as to make it passe, probably, although I have always suspected that boredom came from within.

I can't agree with very limited variance of tone at all.

[Conan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363106855' post='2008624']
I can't agree with very limited variance of tone at all.
[/quote]

Me neither. That said, more tone variation comes from the player, the amp and any effects than it does from the bass. A P bass is clearly more limited due to only having the single pickup (well, you know what I mean!).... but a J bass is certainly not tonally restricted in any way (IMO). In fact, there are so many different sounds available from the typical J configuration that most players don't even bother to explore them, but stick with the "classic" bridge only or "both-on-full" settings.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363106043' post='2008601']
You think it's inflammatory... I strongly dispute that.[/quote]

You're the one that implied that someone on this thread "hated" Fender bases, which implies extreme feelings. Why you couldn't use "dislike" or a simple "not like" makes me think it would have ended up kicking off - again.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363109451' post='2008678']


You're the one that implied that someone on this thread "hated" Fender bases, which implies extreme feelings. Why you couldn't use "dislike" or a simple "not like" makes me think it would have ended up kicking off - again.
[/quote]

Settle doon, man. It's just internets lingo.

The only person that's kicked off is you.

Edited March 12, 2013 by wateroftyne

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363106855' post='2008624']
I thought the Beatles thread (everytime) showed ............[/quote]
What it showed me what that many posters on here can't let folk just have their own opinions or tastes without being denigrated.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363106855' post='2008624']I can't agree with very limited variance of tone at all.[/quote]
Yeah, well, that's what forums are [i]supposed[/i] to be about, comparison of tastes and experiences.
My taste & experience is why I don't have a Fender bass ATMIT.

[The Bass Doc]

The expression 'Leo got it right' is bandied about quite a lot.

I understand the view but being one of the very few people to have spent some time with him I can say that he wouldn't neccessarily claim that.

I met him at CLF Research in 1979 when he was producing guitars for Musicman and he was constantly trying to improve and develop his instruments. I would say the Stingray may well have been the first truly active bass to be a world-wide success and of course he went on to design some fine instruments under the G&L banner.

I can't imagine that any present day luthier of the more boutique/unique styled basses would denegrate Leo Fender's pioneering work since I guess they would accept they had to design [i]from [/i]something that went before.

For his part LF only claimed that he was lucky in producing the first production-run bass that 'caught on' i.e. that if any other company had beaten him to it [i]that [/i]may well have been how the masses would expect a bass guitar to be.

So, dear friends, we should respect the original innovater and at the same time be grateful that further innovations have come along to enable all tastes to be satisfied.

The fact that the Precision bass (along with it's derivitives) continues to be probably the most popular in the world to this day as far as numbers are concerned is a credit to the man but were he still alive he would no doubt be trying to improve on it.

Viva la difference! (as the Spanish would say, Rodney).

Edited March 12, 2013 by The Bass Doc

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363109706' post='2008685']
Settle doon, man. It's just internets lingo.

The only person that's kicked off is you.
[/quote]

Au contraire! I'm reading some interesting replies, in amongst the guy who started the thread trying to bring "hate" into it.