Fender = boring and dull.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363096061' post='2008338']
The car has essentially the same function today as it had in the fifties. It still uses an internal combustion engine, itself a development of the steam engine. All that has been developed are safety features, engine efficiency and the use of on-board computers. That's all.
[/quote]
True - to an extent, but - generally - cars these days weigh a lot less, are made with more durable parts, are more affordable, are part of a much bigger market from international sources, and are more varied to suit wider public tastes....... cars or basses.


[quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1363096410' post='2008354']Bolt-on necks seem to more prevalent for mass production, as i'd guess they're easier and cheaper to do[/quote]
Bang on the money - and why they were made that way in the first place, for mass production before perfection. As the Telecaster book says, the fact it worked 3rd time lucky was the bonus.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Big_Stu

[discreet]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363096443' post='2008358']
True - to an extent, but - generally - cars these days weigh a lot less, are made with more durable parts, are more affordable, are part of a much bigger market from international sources, and are more varied to suit wider public tastes....... cars or basses.
[/quote]

You are quite correct and it's a good analogy. A car is still essentially a metal box with a wheel at each corner powered by a combustion engine using fossil fuel and is used largely by idiots who can't drive properly.

A bass is still essentially one or more bits of wood glued or bolted together with a nut, a bridge, tuners, pickup(s) and electrics and is used largely by idiots who can't play properly.

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]Plus ça change (plus c'est la même chose)![/color][/font][/size]

Edited March 12, 2013 by discreet

[tauzero]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1363093042' post='2008239']
What is remarkable about the Fender bass is that it is still the best tool for the job of playing the bass guitar in most modern popular music situations , even 60 or so years after its' initial conception . That's why so many people still use them .
[/quote]

I'm not at all comvinced about "the best tool". I think "adequate" would be more accurate there.

As for why so many people still use them, that just shows how blinkered so many bassists are. They obviously can't tell entertainment from art.

[Conan]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363095327' post='2008315']
.......... things have moved on. There are far better ways of building most things now than there was then & the bass guitar is just one among that very long list.[/quote]

Hmmmm, maybe there are better ways of building them, but that doesn't mean that the end result is necessarily better.

For example, my two main basses are a reasonable new (2009 I think) Fender J bass and a 1986 Status series II. Both are very well put together (despite being made from very different materials and using very different methods). Is one better than the other?

Yes and no (IMO).

The Status is undeniably a "better quality" instrument, and certainly took a lot more man-hours to design and assemble. It is a neck-thru rather than the BO Fender. It balances beautifully. It sustains for ever. It has no dead spots or inconsistencies on the neck. The pickups are silent. The preamp is powerful but usable (although 3 band would be better!). All in all, it is just a "better" bass than the Geddy Lee jazz.

So why do I end up playing the J more, or even at all?

Because, despite the dated design and production methods, Fender quite simply "got it right" with this bass (IMO).

There may be different ways to get there, but the ultimate destination is the same - a bass that feels good, looks good and sounds good. New is not always better... Just look at architecture!

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363097138' post='2008375']
.................. and used largely by idiots who can't drive properly.

.................. and is used largely by idiots who can't play properly.[/quote]

Brilliant!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363097138' post='2008375'][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]Plus ça change (plus c'est la même chose)![/color][/font][/size][/quote]

Dance le jardin de Max Factor!

[discreet]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363097843' post='2008399']
Dance le jardin de Max Factor!
[/quote]

Mangetout mon ami, mangetout.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1363097506' post='2008391']Fender quite simply "got it right" with this bass (IMO).[/quote]

Which is wonderfully fair enough.
Just over-using the car analogy again, there are many who A) will stick to one brand of car all of their lives because they've never been let down by them, there are equally B ) many who change brands every time to see what else lights their fire & there are C) those who decide what car they want & specify all kinds of add-ons at the point of sale.

A) might have one that starts first time, gets him from home to work every day & who needs a trip computer anyway?
B )has wide knowledge of many, expertise of none, but has either ended up frustrated or has the best car for the best price he can afford.
or
C) has the pinnacle of motors which either turns heads, rouses jealousy or "who's that flash git"..

..... no I don't know what I'm banging on about any more either. Fenders are boring .... QED.
I'd better get some work done!

Edited March 12, 2013 by Big_Stu

[Dingus]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363094015' post='2008265']
tommyrot.
[/quote]
[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1363097404' post='2008386']
I'm not at all comvinced about "the best tool". I think "adequate" would be more accurate there.

As for why so many people still use them, that just shows how blinkered so many bassists are. They obviously can't tell entertainment from art.
[/quote]

I would be genuinely interested to hear from yourselves and other bass players why they don't like or get on with Fenders and in which situations and for what reasons you feel they are not up to the task . Going from my own experience and what I have observed of other players that I respect and / or admire , a good Precision Bass and a good Jazz Bass will do so much and give an appropriate and fulfilling sound in many different musical situations , and that is the reason for their enduring popularity . Of course they won't suit everybody , but the effiacy of those designs is undeniable .

[Wil]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1363097506' post='2008391']
Hmmmm, maybe there are better ways of building them, but that doesn't mean that the end result is necessarily better.

For example, my two main basses are a reasonable new (2009 I think) Fender J bass and a 1986 Status series II. Both are very well put together (despite being made from very different materials and using very different methods). Is one better than the other?

Yes and no (IMO).

The Status is undeniably a "better quality" instrument, and certainly took a lot more man-hours to design and assemble. It is a neck-thru rather than the BO Fender. It balances beautifully. It sustains for ever. It has no dead spots or inconsistencies on the neck. The pickups are silent. The preamp is powerful but usable (although 3 band would be better!). All in all, it is just a "better" bass than the Geddy Lee jazz.

So why do I end up playing the J more, or even at all?

Because, despite the dated design and production methods, Fender quite simply "got it right" with this bass (IMO).

There may be different ways to get there, but the ultimate destination is the same - a bass that feels good, looks good and sounds good. New is not always better... Just look at architecture!
[/quote]

I also once owned a Status S2 and compared to the Fenders I've owned, it was certainly leagues ahead in design/build and as you say, sustained for ever. As it happens though I don't think that makes for the tones I enjoy (I mean, sustain is all well and good, but IMO the decay of a note can have as much of an impact on the tone as it's attack) , and as such I'm squarely back in the Fender (or Fender style) camp.

[discreet]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1363099406' post='2008449']
...I'm squarely back in the Fender (or Fender style) camp.
[/quote]

Where you will routinely see a lump of foam stuffed under the strings at the bridge!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1363096410' post='2008354']
Bolt on has it's benefits...
[/quote]

What? I'm failing to see any real benefits apart from maybe an ease of construction by people who aren't trained woodworkers/luthiers, and maybe helps to reduce the overall cost of the instrument. Is that what you want? cheapness before functionality?

I'm afraid I can't hear any empirical evidence for differences in sound since all the bolt-on neck basses I have are also different in lots of other ways besides the construction at the point where the neck meets the body. If there are basses out there that are completely identical except for this can someone point me in their direction?

[wateroftyne]

I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363101851' post='2008499']
What? I'm failing to see any real benefits apart from maybe an ease of construction by people who aren't trained woodworkers/luthiers, and maybe helps to reduce the overall cost of the instrument. Is that what you want? cheapness before functionality?

I'm afraid I can't hear any empirical evidence for differences in sound since all the bolt-on neck basses I have are also different in lots of other ways besides the construction at the point where the neck meets the body. If there are basses out there that are completely identical except for this can someone point me in their direction?
[/quote]
I'm quite happy with bolt-ons but I'd agree with this. The one other (not very important) advantage of bolt-on is that when you drop it down the stairs it's easy to fit a new neck.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363102123' post='2008506']
I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.
[/quote]
What a good question.

[charic]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1363102240' post='2008508']
I'm quite happy with bolt-ons but I'd agree with this. The one other (not very important) advantage of bolt-on is that when you drop it down the stairs it's easy to fit a new neck.
[/quote]

I'll be honest, this is why I've always opted toward bolt ons. If I screw up a neck somehow then I can get a new one fitted relatively easily

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363102123' post='2008506']
I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.
[/quote]

Has anyone anywhere, apart from here, used the word "hate"?
One thing that is repeatedly frustrating about this forum is users who introduce a loaded word into a thread as though it's already been used & then the discussion goes off on that tangent based on a false assumption. (see under "Beatles" thread)

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363102960' post='2008525']
Has anyone anywhere, apart from here, used the word "hate"?
One thing that is repeatedly frustrating about this forum is users who introduce a loaded word into a thread as though it's already been used & then the discussion goes off on that tangent based on a false assumption. (see under "Beatles" thread)
[/quote]

You know what I mean...

One thing that is repeatedly frustrating about this forum is people who take things too literally...

[BigRedX]

TBH I've never seen any instrument with the neck so badly damaged that it couldn't be fixed that didn't also have significant damage to the body.

In fact I recall a video posted on here some time back that showed someone (bassist from Guitar Wolf?) trying to smash his Fender bass at the end of a gig. He broke a piece off the body long before doing anything serious to the neck (if at all).

IMO the bolt-on neck as an ease to repair is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363103135' post='2008527']
You know what I mean...[/quote]

Actually I don't - I haven't seen anyone get close to use a words such as "hate". If you have another word in mind - such "meh" or any other far less inflammatory then please use it.

[wateroftyne]

Nah - I'll stick with haters. But thanks for the feedback.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363103178' post='2008528']IMO the bolt-on neck as an ease to repair is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.[/quote]

It could raise another problem though, without the logo; in light of a current thread, if it was a Fender what would the owner do to show it wasn't a copy?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363103178' post='2008528']
TBH I've never seen any instrument with the neck so badly damaged that it couldn't be fixed that didn't also have significant damage to the body.

In fact I recall a video posted on here some time back that showed someone (bassist from Guitar Wolf?) trying to smash his Fender bass at the end of a gig. He broke a piece off the body long before doing anything serious to the neck (if at all).

IMO the bolt-on neck as an ease to repair is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.
[/quote]
Yes, the stairs probably wouldn't do much damage anyway.

[neepheid]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363102123' post='2008506']
I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.
[/quote]

You could turn this on its head and I could ask if someone would tell me why my performance would be improved if I were to play a Fender.

I'll give you what I believe to be the simple reason - IT DOESN'T MATTER! A bass is a bass and as long as it's of mechanical and electronic integrity then it will make pleasingly rumbly low notes that make people dance and glue the drummer to the rest of the band.

You know which "camp" I'm in, but I harbour no hate for any brand. Actually, considering the runaround I've been given recently in my attempts to procure a Grabber 3 70s Tribute bass that is fit for purpose (have given up), I'm not in a terrific mood with Gibson USA at the moment either

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1363102123' post='2008506']
I'm a little in the dark with this, still.

Would a Fender hater care to chip in and let me know in what ways my performance (musical, that is) would be improved if I were to play another brand?

Thank you.
[/quote]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363102960' post='2008525']
Has anyone anywhere, apart from here, used the word "hate"?
One thing that is repeatedly frustrating about this forum is users who introduce a loaded word into a thread as though it's already been used & then the discussion goes off on that tangent based on a false assumption. (see under "Beatles" thread)
[/quote]

Any dispute over the 'hate' word is irrelevant to the content of the question asked.

The question is 'How would WoT (or anyone else) improve his or her performance by using a non-Fender bass?'

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363103178' post='2008528']
TBH I've never seen any instrument with the neck so badly damaged that it couldn't be fixed that didn't also have significant damage to the body.

In fact I recall a video posted on here some time back that showed someone (bassist from Guitar Wolf?) trying to smash his Fender bass at the end of a gig. He broke a piece off the body long before doing anything serious to the neck (if at all).

IMO the bolt-on neck as an ease to repair is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.
[/quote]

Exactly, having a replaceable neck is a stupid idea.

What bassists really need is a bolt-on body bass.