rickenbacker police

[Beer of the Bass]

As far as I can gather (and feel free to contradict me if you're clued up on the legal stuff), their trademark protection on the headstock shape, toaster pickup covers etc. applies in the USA only. Ebay and Gumtree will co-operate with their requests as they are American owned companies, so could be taken to court successfully. I don't think they have the same sort of influence where the instruments are made and sold outside the US by non-US companies.

[aende]

I heard that Eddie Van Halen had copyrighted the 'candy stripe' colour scheme from his original Frankenstrat guitar.

People who painted their guitars in tribute had auctions and so on stopped immediately. I think it really alienated some die hard fans....

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1363363591' post='2011898']
As far as I can gather (and feel free to contradict me if you're clued up on the legal stuff), their trademark protection on the headstock shape, toaster pickup covers etc. applies in the USA only. Ebay and Gumtree will co-operate with their requests as they are American owned companies, so could be taken to court successfully. I don't think they have the same sort of influence where the instruments are made and sold outside the US by non-US companies.
[/quote]

The got EU protection of the headstock a few years ago.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1363363937' post='2011906']
The got EU protection of the headstock a few years ago.
[/quote]

Ah right, I missed that! I'm surprised there aren't more near copies with alternative headstock shapes out there, as seems to be the norm with Fender copies.

[Marvin]

I wouldn't p*** on a Ric if it were on fire. Ugly damn things IMO.

[SteveK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1363362114' post='2011858']
I just googled rockinbetter, there are[b] loads of businesses selling them,[/b] and yet he goes after private sellers? No wonder people get pissed off!
[/quote]Hmmm, I Googled and found that a suspiciously large number of retailers had 'Out of stock', 'Sold' or 'Call for availability', so actually purchasing one may not be so easy.

[Roger2611]

Has Mr Hall ever taken the time to explain his companies position and why he chooses to go after indivual sellers rather than tackling the manufacturers? Why Rickenbacker don't join the 21st century and outsource some production to the far east and go down a proven successful route both Gibson and Fender has paved the way for? And finally what he thinks about the apparent public perception of his company that is being created by their stance towards modern and vintage copies?

Mr Hall, this could be a perfect forum to tell us your position?

[ezbass]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1363372651' post='2012076']
Why he chooses to go after individual sellers rather than tackling the manufacturers?
[/quote]This.

[jonsmith]

To paraphrase a couple of Mr Hall's answers to the same questions elsewhere...

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1363372651' post='2012076']
Has Mr Hall ever taken the time to explain his companies position and why he chooses to go after indivual sellers rather than tackling the manufacturers?
[/quote]

They have to be seen to pursue as many instances of sale of copies as possible in order to maintain the design protection. That includes private sellers.


[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1363372651' post='2012076']
Why Rickenbacker don't join the 21st century and outsource some production to the far east and go down a proven successful route both Gibson and Fender has paved the way for?
[/quote]

They have no desire to. They are making money & have a full order book. They are quite happy with their business model.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1363363788' post='2011902']
I heard that Eddie Van Halen had copyrighted the 'candy stripe' colour scheme from his original Frankenstrat guitar.

People who painted their guitars in tribute had auctions and so on stopped immediately. I think it really alienated some die hard fans....
[/quote]


Well if he can do it, so can I. I'm claiming designtradecopyrightmark on this post and I hereby demand that Basschat removes it immediately or else I'm going to open my cage of rabid lawyers.

Er, hang on . . . .

[Musky]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1363307224' post='2011525']
I can't claim any moral high ground at all, as I have the Retrovibe and a John Birch.



I have had personal email rows with John Hall, because I criticised a Ric finish issue that I once asked for basic help and advice on. His attitude to me absolutely stank.

That said, while I think the man can be ignorant and petty (I agree someone selling their own bass SHOULD be left alone), Ric should be able to stop further copies being made.
[/quote]

Nice collection.

Actually I agree with you about enforcing his trademarks, but only as it should be - against the manufacturers, importers and distributors. Advertisers of trademarked goods occupy something of a gray area in the UK at the moment, but that doesn't stop JH bully them and sellers.

As for RIC licensing cheaper copies, it's not going to happen and JH has said as much. He's no interest in making cheaper versions even though it might make economic sense. He's personally bound up in the brand - his father built up the company into an iconic brand and his mother sketched out the logo by hand. He grew up with the company as part of his life, and views Rickenbacker as a manufacturer of high end instruments that stand shoulder to shoulder with other iconic brands like Fender and Gibson, and used by some of the biggest names in the bass world. As far as he's concerned, that's what Rick does and the other big brands were only bounced into making their own copies because they didn't protect their trademarks. And FWIW RIC is still a small family business rather than a faceless corporation.

I don't like the way he goes about many things (including the blind denial of any QC issues), but I don't blame him for trying to protect his IP.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1363363937' post='2011906']
The got EU protection of the headstock a few years ago.
[/quote]
JH claims trade dress on the Rick design, and supports that with a court case. If that ruling applies worldwide it means that he has IP in the design as a whole and he's within his rights to go after any design that infringes. If it's not worldwide, strictly speaking he can only pursue instances within the jurisdiction of the court (presumably the US). In any case Ebay/Gumtree don't care, as they seem to have a policy of rolling over on any Vero claim. Ebay were involved with a case against L'Oreal fairly recently and got their fingers burnt - that case has certainly muddied the waters as far as advertising goods that may infringe a trademark.

[simon1964]

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1363373282' post='2012094']

They have no desire to. They are making money & have a full order book. They are quite happy with their business model.
[/quote]

Exactly. Rickenbacker have deliberately stayed a much smaller niche company than Fender and Gibson. I always think they're a bit like Morgan cars - quirky, old fashioned but with a charm you either get or you don't. But if you started mass producing them in China, nobody would buy them.

That's exactly why their business model also needs to protect it's design rights.

[Mr. Foxen]

Morgan don't go after people making spares for Morgans though. If you make them well enough, they buy them from you. Don't go after people making kit car morgan styleys much either, except if they really push it, like the guy who called his model the 'Malvern'.

[simon1964]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1363379785' post='2012213']
except if they really push it, like the guy who called his model the 'Malvern'.
[/quote]

...or like the company who called their model "Rockinbetter"?

[Oopsdabassist]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1363296620' post='2011336']
What's happening with the fella on the maracas? HE looks like he's speeding his tits off!
[/quote]

That'll be one John Evan, erstwhile keyboard player and part time loon

[leadubblebass]

In some ways maybe thats why Ric is a "niche" brand, with fender how many people started out with a cheap copy and then upgrade there fender and pine for a vintage "51 p bass whatever When you thing about it Its a great corprate model- you buy one.... then another one.....etc Really the thing to do is to buy the one you want straight away. but how many people started out on a £1000.00 bass?
A Cheap copy can keep the home fires burning in that they are seen in the local music shop- you would have to be some g#bsh#t# to think that a £200 bass is going to be the same as the original. not that some copies are good instuments


Ps I did laugh about the post "hofner violin copy" the hofner violin bass is a sort of copy of the original Gibson EB1 sorry- and I will try to get out more, maybe by playing bass if there was any money in it

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1363380138' post='2012218']
...or like the company who called their model "Rockinbetter"?
[/quote]

Pretty sure to that company, 'Rockinbetter' is just a squiggle with no meaning.

[icastle]

I have to say I kinda struggle to see the business sense here.

If I had a full orderbook then I've got a profit coming in.
I haven't got a rats chance in hell of stopping the Chinese companies from making copies, so I go after the local sellers.

I engage a legal team to stop local sales of these Chinese basses - spending money out of my profit, but it's not increased my orderbook by doing so.

Page one of the Ladybird Book Of Running A Business says - if it's not going to generate you a profit, don't do it.

Business sense says that if it's not affecting my business, which it isn't because I still have a full order book, then the most cost effective solution is to work alongside the Chinese manufacturers.

I'd dictate some quality standards and take a slice of their cake to add to my already full order book, in fact, to hell with the expense, I'd go buy myself a second order book!

I'd stop throwing money into a bottomless legal pit and stop wasting my money on trying to micro manage a sales environment (it has never worked and never will) and accept the fact that if my two main competitors have already gone down this route, then I'm quite possibly making a poor business decision.

[KingBollock]

Perhaps he is perfectly happy with his business as it is? People have different ideas of what constitutes success, some people don't want to own all the money in the world, I can't imagine that he's poor. And perhaps he's just the kind of person that takes offence at people making inferior copies of his special and unique product and isn't the kind of person to just let it go and has enough money to throw at lawyers to make litigation his hobby? Probably because he can't get anyone to play golf with him. Perhaps he's just a bit of a knob, or wasn't breast fed or something? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps!

[skej21]

The facts are simple but apparently not obvious to Rickenbacker... Even IF their petty pursuit of every fake is successful and they rid the world of copies, does it mean that people will want to buy the real thing?

it appears that their answer to fakes is 'if we remove them, people will HAVE to buy the real thing'... I dont think theyve considered people choosing not to as a result of, what is essentially, bullying of secondhand sellers. even after that, they'll probably turnaway because they'll either be put off by the price, the lack of QC or the behaviour of the brand when dealing with competition.

[karlfer]

It's all been discussed time and time again. He is principled enough to wish to protect his way of life and the people he is involved with. His approach, particularly to private sellers, is horrible and that is what annoys people.
I have always liked Rick's and copies. I have not had any quality issues with any of the ones I have had. Just some of them haven't quite "fitted my hand".
I don't give Mr. Hall my money, as I always buy second hand. I no longer rise to his very irritating, bullying attitude. There again, he is not the first irritating, bullying yank I have come across.

[Stacker]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1363382617' post='2012251']
That'll be one John Evan, erstwhile keyboard player and part time loon
[/quote]
Thanks. Not being a Tull fan, I had to YouTube them and discovered that Mr John Evans may have been part inspiration for Viv Savage!

But, back on thread. I wonder what the 'waffen think of this thread? Doubtless they are discussing it via PM. Nothing on the RRF forum, though.

[XB26354]

I don't think there's anything wrong in Ric wanting to protect their IP. It is just a shape but most bass players would identify a Rickenbacker as easily as a P bass or J Bass. As has been mentioned, Gibson failed to demonstrate they were clamping down on copies so lost the PRS lawsuit, so I guess it's only business that makes them aggressive towards copies.

But... The far east has been making copies of every manufactured product of the last 50 years. A prime example: import tax for foreign motor vehicles was/is astronomical, protecting the internal motor market, unless it was said manufacturer importing a foreign vehicle to copy it, when all import tax was waived! The reality is that there is no way to stop your product being copied. Fender eventually realised this and instead of trying to beat the copies, joined them. Either Ric is elitist in wanting to preserve their ideal of a boutique instrument, or they're too lazy/unable legally to go after the manufacturers and instead chase the eventual owners in the west. This approach does nothing to stop copying, which is mystifying, really. Either set up or licence their own cheap version and kill most of the copies, or make the original product so amazingly good that people really want to save up to get it. What seems to be hampering their company image is that their product isn't up to the quality standard you'd expect from a ~£2K instrument, and availability seems to be an issue, at least in the UK.
Ric really needs to get out of the mindset that licensing a cheaper product is the devaluation of their brand. There really is nothing special about the manufacture of a Rickenbacker that can't be translated into a more affordable product. Almost every big name in every industry does it. Ultimately, with the changes in the music industry and less and less people playing "traditional" instruments, Rickenbacker could find themselves in trouble. Gotta go with the times.

[karlfer]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1363419615' post='2012443']
Thanks. Not being a Tull fan, I had to YouTube them and discovered that Mr John Evans may have been part inspiration for Viv Savage!

But, back on thread. I wonder what the 'waffen think of this thread? Doubtless they are discussing it via PM. Nothing on the RRF forum, though.
[/quote]

Hiya Stacker. I am sure they are aware of it but doubt it will make any difference to their attitude. It would be so simple really. They would get so much more empathy for their cause if Mr. Hall just behaved with more civility. This has been pointed out so many times in so many places to no avail.
I have never had a snotty email from him, despite having sold a couple of fakers over the last two years. I wonder which side of me would respond, the civil calm side, or the psycho that emerges when some muppet does a stupid driving thing

Edited March 16, 2013 by karlfer

[teaser360]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363258752' post='2010507']
Gonna go against the flow here.
I can't really see what the problem is with Rickenbacker's stance on this. They see instruments such as those in the op's photo as being counterfeit and take the appropriate measures.
I'm sure Rickenbacker have, in the past, spent a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears designing and manufacturing a quality product. Doesn't seem quite right to me that someone can come along and say, " Ooooh, what a fantastic looking bass, I can make one that looks identical and sell it for a fraction of the price"... As I say, doesn't seem right to me.

If you want something that looks like a Rickenbacker - buy a Rickenbacker!
[/quote]
its alright if you can afford it, when your starting out and want to look cool, a cheaper bass is the option