Bit of advice please?

[clagooey]

Hi guys,

Basically, I need a fairly decent amp set-up. Well, not really need per se, but I'm getting really frustrated by the noise that comes out of my Fender 25W practice amp. I'm feeding a fretless Overwater Progress III 6 into it and, as the rule goes, my sound is only as good as the weakest component. I'd like to buy second hand due to the price, but I can't afford that right now. I'm probably going to go with the "Take It Away" scheme, as my birthday and Christmas should be able to fund it that way (hooray for rich grandparents!). I have a dawsons near me, and a GuitarWorks, so I should be able to get something decent from either of them. So now, bullet point time!:

- [b]Budget:[/b] up to £600, but can stretch to £800 if worth it
- Must be able to handle low A (as in low-B tuned down a tone, to match the lowest note on an average keyboard instrument)
- Something deep and boomy; think Motown stuff. Mainly because I have developed an abhorrence to fret-buzz (hence the fretless)
- It'll probably be used for mostly jazz, funk, motown etc., but I may well end up doing some kind rock as well
- Seperates will be preferred, as I like the flexibility
- Smaller rigs would probably be preferred (Uni in October, and student accomadation isn't [i]that[/i] big), but I think i should be OK as long as I don't go for a 8x10 or something
- I'm thinking amp, 2x10 and 1x15 seems good.. emphasis on thinking though!

I know that it's down to personal preference, and I'm gonna try all the amp/ cab/ combos that I can, but advice and personal are greatly appreciated

I've looked at the PJ flightcase, and it seems pretty good. I especially like the upward drivers, as I'll probably be playing in Churches, and they seem very useful for that. However, it is pretty expensive for what it is (as in I won't be able to afford anything else), and I'm kinda worried that it's only 150W and won't handle an extension cab. Chances are I won't be playing to massive amounts of people, mostly (I hope!) it'll be with a Jazz band, but just in case I start doing hairy-arsed rock gigs I don't want to be left with an expensive practice amp. Then there's the fact that it seems to work better, bass-response wise, when on the floor next to a wall, and that's quite limiting. Argh, I'm like a bass hypochondriac!!

Sorry for the immense rambling! I tend to obsess about these things, which I guess could be classed as a good thing; spending up to £800 on glorified doorstops won't be good for my mental health! Any responses would be appreciated, good or bad!

Thanks in advance,

Tom

[phatbass787]

For what it sounds like you want you couldnt go wrong getting an Ashdown ABM C210-500 combo and an ABM 115 cab which you can add on for bigger gigs etc. Beautifully big sound.

[clagooey]

Ooo, that looks good! Thanks for your input; it'll definitely be on my watch-list! Just saw something though: at GuitarWorks [url="http://www.theguitarworks.co.uk/acatalog/Second-hand_ex_demo.html#a464"]here[/url] they have a Hughes & Kettner BC115, and a BC 410/2, for £200 each. So for £400 i could get a 4x10 & a 1x15 (although amping will be interesting methinks due to their different Ohm ratings).

Anyone have any experience with these two? Can't find much info as yet (probably will soon!), but GuitarWorks say their SRPs are £600 each.. so even though they probably sell for much less than that new, they don't seem as though they'd be too horrible..

Thanks again guys,

Tom

EDIT: Argh! I can't find any info on these anywhere. Damn you GuitarWorks! And damn you Hughes and Kettner for not having earlier models on your site!
[/vent]

Edited May 26, 2008 by clagooey

[bass_ferret]

GuitarWorks and Dawsons dont have much of a range, and I have no idea what the "take it away" scheme is, but £800 buys a serious rig S/H.

[clagooey]

S/H? Sorry.. not familiar with that acronym-thing.

The "Take It Away" scheme is where you pay a deposit of 1/10th of the price of what you want to buy (up to £2000), then you pay the rest over the next 9 months, interest free. More info [url="http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/takeitaway/"]here[/url]. I'm still not 100% sure if I'm eligible, but I don't see why not.

I've looked for other places in my area which partake in it, but these are the only 2 that have a respectable range. My other option would be to get some kind of loan, and then buy it all online cheaper, but chances are that the interest on that load would cancel out the price difference between online shops and those 2.

Thanks for your advice though Still looking for info on the Hughes & Kettners. Seems fairly impossible right now! I guess I'll just see what they sound like tomorrow..

Tom

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='clagooey' post='206747' date='May 26 2008, 07:28 PM']S/H? Sorry.. not familiar with that acronym-thing.[/quote]
Second hand

[clagooey]

Right.

Had a look around both GuitarWorks and Dawsons today. Guitarworks wasn't very useful, as their bass-head wasn't in today, so trying out different rigs wasn't really that possible. He'll be in tomorrow, so i'll have a look then. One useful thing though: they had a new flightcase in and, having tried it, i've decided that that's definitely not for me!

Dawsons was a bit better though. Tried a Hartke transporter rig, which was OK, but it was sold as i was leaving so it doesn't matter! They had 2 Trace Elliot cabs though: a 1028H 400W 2x10 and a 1518 500W 1x15 cab. These sounded pretty good through a Hartke Ha3500, and were priced at £330 and £350 respectively; which is far cheaper than any online store i've looked at! Anyone have any experiences/ horror storied to do with these that i should know of?

They didn't have many heads unfortunately, but I'm gonna try some more out tomorrow (a woman was hogging all the heads ). It looks like i may have to stretch my budget to get a good amp; it all depends if people think buying these cabs would be worth it? The Hartke was £310 by the by, if anyone wanted to know. It's cheaper than online, but not nearly as much compared to the Trace cabs.

Thanks in advance guys,

Tom

P.S. After further research, it turns out that i can sue this scheme with more than one company, so long as the value of all of them doesn't exceed £2000. So I could theoretically get the cabs from Dawsons because they're cheap, and get an amp at GuitarWorks, all under the same agreement. It's looking goood..

Edited May 27, 2008 by clagooey

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='clagooey' post='206665' date='May 26 2008, 05:16 PM']a Hughes & Kettner BC115, and a BC 410/2, for £200 each. So for £400 i could get a 4x10 & a 1x15 (although amping will be interesting methinks due to their different Ohm ratings).

Anyone have any experience with these two? Can't find much info as yet (probably will soon!), but GuitarWorks say their SRPs are £600 each.. so even though they probably sell for much less than that new, they don't seem as though they'd be too horrible..[/quote]

The BC range of H&K is good stuff however you are going to have to find an amp that will operate at 2 ohms to use those cabs together, far and few between I'm afraid! There are amps out there and a bit of a search through the BC archives will throw up threads relating to amps that do.

[Lo.]

I was a demonstrator for Phil Jones Bass, working alongside Bob Babbitt at NAMM in January, so I'm biased, but the Suitcase combo with an extension cabinet is small and deep and punchy - I'm taking delivery of mine in the next few days, and I can't wait. I had the pleasure of plugging Verdine White into it - he ordered it within a few minutes.

I was a Hartke 3500 user for a good few years (it died on me, sadly - it was one of the early versions which I'm told were better than the recent ones, but I haven't A/B'd them). I really loved it - I ran it through an SWR 1x18 (Bag End driver, no tweeter) and the bottom end was amazing.

For Motown - I have to say it's more about the hands, strings and setup than the instrument or amp/cab.

[clagooey]

Thanks for all the replies guys I agree with what you said about Motown though Lo.; i've got me some TI jazz flats which seem to be doing a fantastic job right now! Would love to try some La Bella Deep Talkin' strings (because i've heard good things about them), but I can't find a 6 string flatwound set anywhere. Surprising that.. Anyway! Update time!

Spent about an hour in GuitarWorks today, which was really good. I tried the Hughes and Kettner cabs, but they didn't seem too fantastic though. I just really wanted to love them because of their price! On the advice of phatbass787 i tried an Ashdown ABM combo; though it was the 15" combo instead of the 2x10. I must say, I didn't really like it that much. However, I connected an Ashdown ABM 4x10 cab to it, turned the 15" off, and MY GOODNESS the sound was fantastic! Completely what I was after. Plus, it made the B string sound as good and as usable as the E string! However.. negative points..:

The amp fans were really, really loud. I know that won't be a problem at loud rock gigs, but it wouldn't work at all for quieter Jazz gigs, and i know it would drive me crazy when practising with it. I was impressed by the cab, and it was better than the H&K 4x10, but I'm not sure how much of that was to do with the amp. From what I can recall though, it seems as though it was the amp that gave it the sound that i liked. Which is fairly annoying. There's also the issue that, for both the cab and the amp, it would cost £925. I probably would've been able to stretch to that, but only if it was perfect. The fan, and the fact that I won't be able to afford a 15" extension cab, means that this doesn't seem feasible right now.

So here I am now: still tempted by the two TE cabs, just because of their price, and the fact that a 2x10 with a 1x15 was the setup I wanted. I was a bit nervous, because I didn't think they sounded too great (for me anyway). However, they were being pushed by a Hatke HA3500, and that didn't sound too good through the Ashdown 4x10 either, so I think it may just be the head. Pity I can't borrow the Ashdown head from GuitarWorks and plug it in to the two TEs at Dawsons!

Quick question though: are most amps really loud? I don't particularly want one that is; and interestingly enough i preferred the Hartke the most when I had more solid-state and less tube, so that makes things a bit easier. I now have a better idea of what I want as well: for the sound to be fairly woody; almost like a upright. I don't like it sounding metallic (i tried a Kustom 1200W amp that was horrible!). So that may make sense to you, it may not. Hey ho!

If anyone has any suggestions of ~300W amps that are quiet, warm, and woody; then please leave me a message Otherwise I'm gonna go back to Dawsons and see if they have anything else.

Cheers guys,

Tom

Edited May 28, 2008 by clagooey

[warwickhunt]

I established that those H&K cabs aren't the original 600watt wizzy driver model, they are the second generation which are half the weight of the originals with standard drivers which sadly lose out in the tone stakes!

Had they been the original models at that price you'd have been grinning from ear to ear and pinned to the back wall... saying that you'd also have been going to see a chiropractor

[clagooey]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='208493' date='May 28 2008, 10:56 PM']I established that those H&K cabs aren't the original 600watt wizzy driver model, they are the second generation which are half the weight of the originals with standard drivers which sadly lose out in the tone stakes!

Had they been the original models at that price you'd have been grinning from ear to ear and pinned to the back wall... saying that you'd also have been going to see a chiropractor [/quote]

Well I can still play bass sitting down, so it would be worth it! But you're right; the ones i tried were stupidly light. Too good to be true though unfortunately They've had a call from someone in Newcastle about them though.. I 'spose if you really want them..

Ah well. I think i'll have a look online for some more amp heads. Then I'm gonna go look at my bank statement online, afterwards repeatedly pressing refresh in the hope that I'm gifted with a wodge of money. Damn optimism.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='clagooey' post='208506' date='May 28 2008, 11:15 PM']Well I can still play bass sitting down, so it would be worth it! But you're right; the ones i tried were stupidly light. Too good to be true though unfortunately [b]They've had a call from someone in Newcastle about them though[/b].. I 'spose if you really want them..

Ah well. I think i'll have a look online for some more amp heads. Then I'm gonna go look at my bank statement online, afterwards repeatedly pressing refresh in the hope that I'm gifted with a wodge of money. Damn optimism.[/quote]

That was me establishing what they were. Had they been the original version (weighing 100lb or so each) with Speakon connectors I'd have advised you to snap them up asap, as you'd not get similar quality cabs at that price anywhere! As it happens the original versions would be 'WAY' to heavy for me and the later versions are nice budget cabs but not a batch on the 'proper' cabs.

Your quest continues.

[gilmour]

If you wanna try something a little out of the ordinary I'm also based in Reading, you are welcome to come over, have a cuppa, talk bass and try out my Eden/BFM rig. The cab would handle your low A's no problem although the Eden might be a little bright sounding. (PM me if you're interested)

The selction in Dawsons and Gutar works isn't great atm unfortunatley, maybe you need to make a pilgramige up to London to the Bass Merchant, Bass Centre etc.

[quote name='clagooey' post='206638' date='May 26 2008, 04:30 PM']- Must be able to handle low A (as in low-B tuned down a tone, to match the lowest note on an average keyboard instrument)
- Something deep and boomy; think Motown stuff. Mainly because I have developed an abhorrence to fret-buzz (hence the fretless)[/quote]
Are those things related?

[budget bassist]

[quote name='phatbass787' post='206640' date='May 26 2008, 04:34 PM']For what it sounds like you want you couldnt go wrong getting an Ashdown ABM C210-500 combo and an ABM 115 cab which you can add on for bigger gigs etc. Beautifully big sound.[/quote]
+1 on ashdown, i have an EB 180 stack and for only 180W of power it's got some real trouser flap! Not to mention it's got a pretty nice tone to it and a reasonably easy to use 5 band EQ and a few other fairly handy controls.
I got the EB180 head and the MAG 210T deep and mag 115 deep, managed to get the lot off ebay for £250. With the 210 and the 115 it packs a good punch, it delivers the high end, which i like as a bit of a funk bassist, and plenty of nice lows. I realise i only have the budget kit, so for £600, with a good scout around you could get yourself a decent head and a couple of ABM cabs or the combo and cab as phatbass mentioned for your budget if you spend time on it.

[xgsjx]

Go & try some Markbass stuff. I got the 210 combo from the Bass Merchant & couldn't be happier.
It has all the tones I could want (without pedals) & for a 2x10 it goes amazingly low in the bass dept.
I want to add another cab but to be honest, I wont need it for a while as I keep getting told to turn it down (words that have never came in my direction before!).

I was in a similar position to you just over a month ago, looking for kit urgently & trying to see what was my best option. The advice I got on here was really helpful & helped in my decision & at the end of the day you'll get lots of great kit suggested, but if you're after a specific sound then you should go & try some of these out & see what suits you.

[clagooey]

@Gilmour - Thanks very much for the offer; you'll have a PM soon

[quote name='gilmour' post='208543' date='May 29 2008, 12:23 AM']Are those things related?[/quote]

If you're referring to the low A and Motown, then basically yes! I play in a Church band and, as we usually have a keyboardist, it's good to be able to match that when the need arises. The Motown sound also seems to work better for Church use; we don't really play gospel-type music, but the bass plays a large role in the dynamics of the song. Sometimes I can noodle about a bit, but only when the need arises; most of the time it works better if I play some strong, definitive tonic notes.

@budget bassist - I did want to try the MAG head to see what it sounded like but, as I'd already spent about an hour in there, I felt a bit guilty! The guy also said it sounded a lot different to the ABM; in what way he didn't say though. I'm gonna see if I can go back at some point soon though.

@xgsjx - I've heard plenty of good things about MarkBass stuff; it's just a pity they don't do it in Reading! I'd love to go to London to spend about a day looking through rigs, and it would be the best option, but I guess it just depends if my GAS can hold on for that long.. It was never this bad before I started posting on this here forum!

Quick question again though: does the PJB Suitcase become suddenly amazing at low frequencies when coupled with the 4B extension? Trying it on its own.. I wasn't impressed, but the spec sheep for the 4B says that it can handle frequencies from 25Hz; 3Hz lower than the 28 I need for my A. I've also heard rave reviews for them together. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for all the advice again though; it is very much appreciated! It would seem that this current state of mind isn't a phase though; I 'spose I won't be ever happy with my rig! Not that that's a bad thing.. I'll make sure to keep you guys updated though

Tom

[bass_ferret]

Sorry but you are asking the impossible. Bass gear that can faithfully reproduce a low A is f***ing expensive and human hearing at those frequencies is not very good. There is a very good reason for bottom E being the bottom E and it is because it is usually the lowest note a human voice can reproduce. And the human ear is most sensitive to the frequency range of the human voice.

The question about motown probably arose because you keep banging on about low A, but James Jamerson, the motown bass player, never went below E on his Precision. Some of us may be jumping to the conclusion that you are deluded that lower = better and are therefore trying to go unnecessarily low, and lower than your budget will allow.

Edited May 30, 2008 by bass_ferret

[clagooey]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='209704' date='May 30 2008, 03:51 PM']Sorry but you are asking the impossible. Bass gear that can faithfully reproduce a low A is f***ing expensive and human hearing at those frequencies is not very good. There is a very good reason for bottom E being the bottom E and it is because it is usually the lowest note a human voice can reproduce. And the human ear is most sensitive to the frequency range of the human voice.

The question about motown probably arose because you keep banging on about low A, but James Jamerson, the motown bass player, never went below E on his Precision. Some of us may be jumping to the conclusion that you are deluded that lower = better and are therefore trying to go unnecessarily low, and lower than your budget will allow.[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up about the low A cost. I guess I'll just have to keep looking and trying what's out there Though I must admit i'm fairly perplexed by your human voice comment. It would make sense, but the number of men who can sing that low are VERY rare. The classic choral range of a vocal bass only goes down to the D [b]above[/b] bottom E; 10 semitones higher. Singing bottom E was unheard of until recently, and now it's only used in specia ensembles, such as Russian Oktavist choirs and in Barbershop.

I'm fully aware of who James Jamerson was. I know he used a 4 string P-bass. However, just because I like his sound, it doesn't mean that I want to play his stuff exclusivelý, and just like he did; I'm not limiting myself to just one genre!

Further clarification of why I want low A: as I stated before, it's to match the lowest note on a keyboard. If you looked into it, i'm sure that you'd find that detuning the bass to match the keyboard is very common in American gospel acts. It's not out of some farcial desire to be lower than everone else. If it was, I would've changed my bass to have a low F#, or C#, or whatever. What do you think of people like Dood who have a low F# on their bass? If it's that they know how to use it, and when to use it, then fair enough. But I'm pretty sure i'd fall under that category as well. The greatest lesson I learnt was to know when to play, when not to play, and realising that some songs need the bassist to play the tonic note of the chords in crotchets and minims.

Some of us may be jumping to the conclusion that you are deluded in thinking that, just because I'm 19, I'm horrendously immature, have no sense of song structure, and think that slap bass only involving tonic notes, fifths, octaves, and dominant 7ths is the pinnacle of a bassist's talent. I'd hope that they don't, but I can't please everyone!

I hope that clears things up,

Tom

[gilmour]

Hi Tom,

Will got your msg, will reply when I get a chance.

[b]RE: The above. [/b] I didn't mean the is the Low A related to motown, I actually meant it is probably the reson for the fret buzz! And inadvertantly seem to have caused some kind of argument sorry.

Ferrets right about JJ, for the most part, I'm not even sure if they had 5 strings back them. However IIRC he did play on quite a bit of Stevie Wonder stuff, and that's tuned down to Eb a lot of the time (all the black keys I guess).

Anyway will PM you when I'm less drunk and more coherent

Rob.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='209704' date='May 30 2008, 10:51 AM']Sorry but you are asking the impossible. Bass gear that can faithfully reproduce a low A is f***ing expensive and human hearing at those frequencies is not very good. There is a very good reason for bottom E being the bottom E and it is because it is usually the lowest note a human voice can reproduce. And the human ear is most sensitive to the frequency range of the human voice.[/quote]
The reason for going only to E was that's what double bass did, and the original PBass was intended as a portable alternative to the double bass. Jamerson, and everyone else in those days, seldom ventured below G, because the speakers wouldn't handle it. That's no longer the case, and most well engineered modern cabs can go to A1, but it's the harmonics where the power lies anyway. BTW, the human voice doesn't do 41Hz, and the ear is most sensitive around 300-500 Hz- where the fundamentals of the female voice lie. Ostensibly to best hear the call to dinner across the savannah.

[bass_ferret]

Yes I was forgetting that bass is an octave lower than written. Doh!

Anyway, the issue remains that reproducing low frequencies is more difficult (the low notes on a cheap piano can be an indistinct rumble for example), and as Bill says the note we hear is made up of the fundamental and harmonics. But wanting to have a Jamerson like tone is achieved by removing the harmonics.

A couple of personal observations:

Lots of ERB players have a bright sound using 'hi-fi' amplification.
Lots of ERB players put bands round the strings to stop the unplayed string ringing, often at the twelfth fret, meaning they can only go down to C# below bottom E anyway. The ERB is often used to play in the register of traditional basses up the dusty end, not for pumping out low C#.

Surely the musical interest is not playing the same notes as the keyboard anyway - whats the point of that. I played with keys for 20 years and on the few occasions I doubled it was an octave or two up, or if he was playing up an octave or two down, rather than copying note for note.

[Dood]

Ah! ERB, one of my fave subjects!


[quote name='bass_ferret' post='210081' date='May 31 2008, 12:35 PM']A couple of personal observations:

Lots of ERB players have a bright sound using 'hi-fi' amplification.[/quote]

I don't think thats far from the truth. I personally like to feel that my amplification in its simplest state is able to reproduce a clear representation of whats coming out of my bass. I want clean definition from the very highest notes and harmonics to, as mentioned previously, the rather gutteral low strings. Once the fundamental sound is there - and able to move 'air' as efficiently as possible, then I start adding dirt on should I need it. I guess the ole addage 'you can't polish a turd' applies!


[quote name='bass_ferret' post='210081' date='May 31 2008, 12:35 PM']Lots of ERB players put bands round the strings to stop the unplayed string ringing, often at the twelfth fret, meaning they can only go down to C# below bottom E anyway. The ERB is often used to play in the register of traditional basses up the dusty end, not for pumping out low C#.[/quote]

Not totally true. I guess you could leave the band on the strings all the time, but as you have eluded to, that would be a complete waste of strings as you are boxing yourself in. - unless the gig called for solo playing all the time up in the high registers with some fairly dextrous techniques.

My band only comes overin the latter case. As it is desgned to act like a damper pedal on a piano, I only need drag it up as far as fret 3, or maybe 5 in the heat of the moment.

If I am string skipping or sweep picking over the top 4 strings and both of my hands are 'north of the border', 'up the dusty end' then the band will keep the low 3 strings in check. With compression and drive switched in, my low F# will resonate with a buffalo fart one hundred miles away.. it needs to be kept in check!

Here's a demo of a band in action, by my very good friend and ex band mate, Andy James. Note that he doesnt really have the opportunity to damp his low B string and uses the band to keep his playing very clean indeed.



[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDKbEDTdbZI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDKbEDTdbZI[/url]

[bass_ferret]

Very clean but to my ears absolutely f***ing awful with no musical value. Takes all kinds I guess.

[Dood]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='210173' date='May 31 2008, 04:45 PM']Very clean but to my ears absolutely f***ing awful with no musical value. Takes all kinds I guess.[/quote]


I knew some would say that, but I couldn't be bothered to put a disclaimer on saying that I wanted people to look at Andy's hands being unable to mute the 'open' strings whilst he was playing with such techniques. Not so much to listen to the notes as to understand how clean it sounded.

Whilst we are on the subject though, I can confirm that Andy doesn't always play like this.. and is an incredible talent on the guitar.I have played with him many times and is a joy to listen to. I have noticed today that people are actually posting videos on themselves on you tube playing HIS songs!!!