Bass Lady Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hi all, a bit of advice needed please. Easier if I explain from the beginning. I bought a Squier P/J bass a couple of months ago, I bought it because it was purple (I have a real thing going on with the colour) and it was cheap as chips, local pickup - £70. When I got it I was really impressed with the sound and playability BUT I love playing fretless so decided to get a fretless neck to go on it. Asked on here, had a look around the internet, missed out on a really nice vintage neck on Ebay so decided to try a really cheap, new neck straight from China, thinking, well if it doesn't work out it hasn't cost me a fortune. Neck arrived, has been fitted and I strung it up yesterday. Got the action nice and playable then checked for intonation. By 12th fret (remember fretless so side marker) the intonation is very flat but compared to the markers, it is pretty consistently flat from nut, Tried adjusting bridge but at full length the screws aren't making much difference. So, measured from nut to bridge (I believe the measurement should be 34"?), well mine is more like 34.5" which certainly explains the intonation. Am I right in thinking (well in theory anyway) this would be a problem on a fretted neck because tuning would be really affected but on a fretless all I really need to do is reposition the side markers. Playing it, I can ignore the markers and easily compensate by listening and as a double bass player I am more than used to playing different instruments with different "stops" so, is it really as simple as playing by ear and moving the markers just to have that initial mark to check? Am I missing something that is going to make the bass unplayable? I don't really want to move the bridge as this could well change the tone as the pickups will be closer to the bridge. All advice greatly appreciated. Cheers, Rachel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Your thoughts seem good, am impressed that you can ignore side markers, they would irritate me. You may have a 22 'fret' fretless neck rather than '21'. Try it and see What are you doing with the previous neck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Markers are only a guide, if its consistent, doesn't matter outside of that as long as you can play fretless. Probably is a neck that had more 'frets' without the overhanging bit that some do. I've seen fretless necks that have the dots where they'd be on a standard neck, between positions, so it might be that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bass Doc Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well you could certainly compensate by your technique but my answer would be to let the neck in slightly i.e. lengthen the neck pocket so that you achieve nearer 34.25 spacing nut to bridge. This is taken as the approximate measurement to the D and A string as the G is more like 34" and the E sring closer to 34.5 when the 'slope' is taken into account. You may need a tech to do this but it shouldn't cost much. The holes in the neck may need plugging and re-drilling to suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 [quote name='3below' timestamp='1363386115' post='2012299'] Your thoughts seem good, am impressed that you can ignore side markers, they would irritate me. You may have a 22 'fret' fretless neck rather than '21'. Try it and see What are you doing with the previous neck? [/quote] Hi guys, Thanks for the super fast replies. Could well be a 22 fret neck will go check it out in a mo. Would that then affect where the markers should be? Good to have my "theory" at least given a positive reaction. I can ignore the markers as a temporary thing, plan would be to cover over and put new ones on if this is the way to go. It's a maple neck with black dots so should be easy enough. As a first impression, even though it is really cheap (£63 inc p&p) the neck does seem to be sound so it is worth me spending a bit of time and effort to get it playable. For now I intend to keep the original neck just incase things don't plan out and I suppose if I really find this new neck is no good I will look for a more suitable one (ie. correct length) in the future. So far though, the bass has cost me less than £150 and trying to find a purple, fretless precision is harder to find than rocking horse poo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 [quote name='The Bass Doc' timestamp='1363386897' post='2012312'] Well you could certainly compensate by your technique but my answer would be to let the neck in slightly i.e. lengthen the neck pocket so that you achieve nearer 34.25 spacing nut to bridge. This is taken as the approximate measurement to the D and A string as the G is more like 34" and the E sring closer to 34.5 when the 'slope' is taken into account. You may need a tech to do this but it shouldn't cost much. The holes in the neck may need plugging and re-drilling to suit. [/quote] Hi Doc, sorry was posting when your reply came in. Thanks for the advice, I hear what you are saying completely. I would rather not touch the body if at all possible as I may well "upgrade" the neck in the future and this could then cause the problem of the neck being "to short" I *think*?? Plus, as the neck was so cheap and the body is a fab colour the body would be my priority to keep original. Am I making sense, sorry it has been a very long week. Can I do this? ps. Pleasure to have met you, I have read your name on many other helpful posts but not had the pleasure of your advice until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiOgon Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 [quote name='The Bass Doc' timestamp='1363386897' post='2012312'] Well you could certainly compensate by your technique but my answer would be to let the neck in slightly i.e. lengthen the neck pocket so that you achieve nearer 34.25 spacing nut to bridge. This is taken as the approximate measurement to the D and A string as the G is more like 34" and the E sring closer to 34.5 when the 'slope' is taken into account. You may need a tech to do this but it shouldn't cost much. The holes in the neck may need plugging and re-drilling to suit. [/quote] +1, Bass Doc has put into words exactly what I was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) [quote name='The Bass Doc' timestamp='1363386897' post='2012312'] Well you could certainly compensate by your technique but my answer would be to let the neck in slightly i.e. lengthen the neck pocket so that you achieve nearer 34.25 spacing nut to bridge. This is taken as the approximate measurement to the D and A string as the G is more like 34" and the E sring closer to 34.5 when the 'slope' is taken into account. You may need a tech to do this but it shouldn't cost much. The holes in the neck may need plugging and re-drilling to suit. [/quote] It seems easier to cover and re-mark the dots. On a grands worth of bass I'd take the trouble to get it right, but not on a cheapie. Is there any practical reason for working on the body? I would have thought that the only real difference would be the relative position of the pup on the open string, and at the measurements we are talking that is only about 1.5mm. Edit: forgot to agree with Mr Foxen on both counts. Could be a 'between the frets' dot system especially if its a cheap neck, its cheaper just to not fit the frets than to retool the factory to make a fretless with the dots in the right place. Edited March 16, 2013 by SteveO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 How about moving the bridge forward by 1/2" and hiding the old screw holes with a bridge cover? The earth wire should still be in contact with the bridge if its only by that amount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Before getting out the woodworking tools or going to a luthier STOP. Just take a moment to work through things slowly and logically. There are two reasons why it's sounding out of tune when you go by the dot markers. 1. The neck is a "fret longer" 2. The dots are in the position they would be in on a fretted neck and not where the frets themselves should be (which is where theyy really out to be on an unlined fretless neck). The easiest way to work out what is going on is to compare both necks. Measure from the nut to the end of each neck. If they are the same (or within a mm or two) then the dots are in the wrong place. If the new neck is roughly 10-15mm longer then it has an extra "fret". Moving the dots into the right place is fairly easy. However if the neck is the wrong length then IMO you'd probably be better off getting a neck that's the right rather than messing about making it fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Thank You for all advice given, I've learnt lots so far. Well, it looks like it has the "extra fret" when I compare it to the original neck. From the nut, the markers on both necks match up perfectly which at least explains the intonation difference. So first lesson learnt as I had no idea about the different lengths apart from the obvious short / medium / long scales. I think at least for now I'll move the side markers to see how I get on and keep an eye for a neck. So at this point I probably need to actually measure the old one to see what would be suitable. Here is a (poor) pic of the new beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 So not only is the new neck longer from nut to the end of the fingerboard, but the dots are also in-between the "frets" rather than on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Surely a 22 fret neck would just have an overhanging board for the 22nd fret (Like USA Strats) or a longer heel area if its designed to fit a particular body like my Ray 5s compared to the 4s. If so then would it not be easier to cut the heel down a bit to fit snugly into the body's pocket? If it has a small heel then you are back to opening the pocket up or getting a different neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I was typing when the above posts were made, somethings not right there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363432756' post='2012613'] So not only is the new neck longer from nut to the end of the fingerboard, but the dots are also in-between the "frets" rather than on them? [/quote] Yes! Just compared the new neck to the original Squier and yes, the dots match up with the fretted dots, then compared the Squier neck with my Warwick fretless and could see the difference in the dot placing and pretty much concluded that the difference in the placing is the difference with the intonation............ arghhhh confused. LOL I did know about the difference of the placing of the markers between fretted / fretless but without having compared them it was difficult to see. Now I can see clearly the problem. The neck was advertised as 34" scale so even with measuring I wouldn't have been able to tell there would be a difference but as the neck was so cheap I knew I would be taking a risk. Lesson certainly learnt, however I am still quite happy to go with this neck for now until I can find a suitable one to replace it. As I have never tried "modding" a bass before the idea was to see if I could do it and the process has taught me a lot. As I often swap between cello and double bass the difference in note playing on the fretless doesn't bother me, after all there are no dots or markers on those, all purely played by ear but I will have a go at moving the markers on the neck just so the wrong ones don't annoy me too much. Apologies if my posts seem slightly confusing. If it is any consolation, I have had several rows off hubby for being my normal "illogical" self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 So the neck is the right length and it's just the dots that are in the wrong place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363437208' post='2012673'] So the neck is the right length and it's just the dots that are in the wrong place? [/quote] Well, the neck is definitely longer by 1cm from nut to end of neck. And the dots are in the place they would be on a fretted if I line the two nuts up. If I line up the two end of necks, the fretted dots seem to line up where the intonation is correct. Confused? Well I am now!! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 OK. It's all clear now. Because it's fretless it really doesn't matter, other than you've effectively increased the scale length by the extra length of the neck. Allow for this and use a [url=http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/i-fretcalc.html]fret position calculator[/url] to work out the new position for the side dots. Your new scale length should be 34" plus the extra 10mm = 874mm. Put in 21 as the number of frets and then use the resulting positions of 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19 and 21 to position the new dots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363444168' post='2012813'] OK. It's all clear now. Because it's fretless it really doesn't matter, other than you've effectively increased the scale length by the extra length of the neck. Allow for this and use a [url="http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/i-fretcalc.html"]fret position calculator[/url] to work out the new position for the side dots. Your new scale length should be 34" plus the extra 10mm = 874mm. Put in 21 as the number of frets and then use the resulting positions of 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19 and 21 to position the new dots. [/quote] Again, a big Thank You. Had no idea a fret position calculator even existed, I was going to add the dots by using harmonics and using my ears like I do when teaching beginner cellists and double bassists. Had a play of it a little earlier and it really is nice to play, ignoring the dots of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 It would make a great Jam night bass for the cocky barsteward that always turns up last thing with no instrument as if the whole evening was a warm up ready for their arrival! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Lady Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1363448813' post='2012875'] It would make a great Jam night bass for the cocky barsteward that always turns up last thing with no instrument as if the whole evening was a warm up ready for their arrival! [/quote] LOL! I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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