Clarebear68 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Apologies as this is quite a big post. The band I'm in, gigged Friday and Saturday this weekend (I've never done that before and is probably a topic on it's own bearing in mind the difference in performance over two nights); however, I digress from my point... The first gig on the Friday was in Manchester at a little bar and while we were aware we wouldn't be paid, we were under the impression that we were at least getting free drinks and so we agrred to play kind of like a 'loss leader' to try and pick up some extra fans for our next paid gig. We sound-checked early, popped out for food etc came back in time for the gig and tried to get some drinks, only to be told we'd have to pay, as the manager hadn't authorised any free drinks for the band and wouldn't be in the bar until much later! Now we'd invited a lot of people, who had invited friends etc, so to cancelling was out of the question by that point, not to mention the bad impression it would cause. So we did the gig. Just from the people we invited, I reckon they must have taken at least £500+ over the bar. The singer/guitarist had got us the gig on Saturday night with the agreement that we would be paid out of the money taken on the door. Again, we invited a lot of people. We did the gig and the crowd seemed to really enjoy themselves. I had to leave before the rest of the guys after the gig but I got a text when I got home saying that we didn't get paid! Apparently, they only charge on the door after 9pm and the majority of the crowd arrived before then! Again they easily took £500+ from the people we invited. And if we hadn't invited people, I think the only people in the place would have been the owner, the doorman and the Bar staff! Last night I was fuming about it - over two gigs, I'd spent about £100 on new string, drinks for me and friends etc. However, in the cold light of day, I'm more confused than angry. I really enjoyed both gigs. I play gigs because I love playing bass in a band playing songs I like to play and love it when an audience get a buzz from hearing us play those songs (we play covers by the way). I don't really do it for the money. What I do object to though, is having the p*ss taken out of us by bar owners who see bands as free entertainment for them to make money out of. What's the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) The 'why do we need to perform live?' Q puzzled me for years until I heard the great Rabbath explain. He says the adrenalin slows down time, so you have forever to form each note, and that's a very special thing. Spot on. No amount of rehearsal gets that adrenalin going. You have to have an audience. Edited March 17, 2013 by fatback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 We gig to get paid. We have to enjoy it as well but we need to cover costs and gear and fuel isn't cheap. We will do a pub to tick over and keep things going on the basis that we will get a better paid gig out of it... but there is no way I'm playing for nothing. The £500 figure is borderline breakeven type figures for venues. Pubs will loose on those takings, if the band costs more than £200, to my thinking.. Clubs probably more so. The trick is to ALWAYS agree a fee... even when you are just starting out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 i gig for the pure love of playing music regardless of if i get paid or not, its ok playing at home, but for me the buzz is being on stage. yes it costs money, but the way i look at it, is if i wanted to watch a film i like at the cinema, id have to pay for it, if i wanted to race a car round a track for a day, id have to pay for it. its nice being paid, but thats what my day job is for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1363537193' post='2013760'] We gig to get paid. We have to enjoy it as well but we need to cover costs and gear and fuel isn't cheap. We will do a pub to tick over and keep things going on the basis that we will get a better paid gig out of it... but there is no way I'm playing for nothing. The £500 figure is borderline breakeven type figures for venues. Pubs will loose on those takings, if the band costs more than £200, to my thinking.. Clubs probably more so. The trick is to ALWAYS agree a fee... even when you are just starting out.. [/quote] This. I also gig as it keeps me sane, but the above still applies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) I gig because I love music. I`m not in it for the money, but considering everyone else employed by the venue gets paid, I don`t see why I shouldn`t as well. If the venue has a good night they don`t pay bar staff/security more. If they have a bad night they don`t pay them less. Therefore irrespective of turnout, they should pay the band. Edited March 17, 2013 by Lozz196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 For the OP are you doing covers or originals? For me personally playing music that I have had a hand in creating in front of an appreciative audience is what I live for. My life would be infinitely poorer if I didn't do that. No matter how crap everything else has been, that 30 minutes when I am on stage and the band is rocking I feel like the king of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Totally agree that a fee should be set with the venue in advance. I also agree that it's easy to underestimate just how much a venue needs to take over the bar to break even from having a band. That said, it's the venue's job to know their business and how to make a profit. If a fee (be it drinks or a share of the door) is agreed then they need to stick to it. As for why do we gig - well I guess that's different for different people. I do it because I love it and the cash is really handy. I don't get involved with "share of the door" type gigs as we play week in week out and there's absolutely no way we can guarantee how many people will come. The only thing I can guarantee is that we will bend over backwards to entertain anyone we play to and we take our social media / advertising seriously so we promote every gig as best we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimryan Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1363537541' post='2013762'] i gig for the pure love of playing music regardless of if i get paid or not, its ok playing at home, but for me the buzz is being on stage. yes it costs money, but the way i look at it, is if i wanted to watch a film i like at the cinema, id have to pay for it, if i wanted to race a car round a track for a day, id have to pay for it. its nice being paid, but thats what my day job is for [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarebear68 Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363538468' post='2013780'] For the OP are you doing covers or originals? For me personally playing music that I have had a hand in creating in front of an appreciative audience is what I live for. My life would be infinitely poorer if I didn't do that. No matter how crap everything else has been, that 30 minutes when I am on stage and the band is rocking I feel like the king of the world. [/quote] We play covers - although we do change them quite a bit. We did an hour and forty minutes last night as well - so they can't complain they wouldn't get their money's worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Clarebear68' timestamp='1363536224' post='2013752'] What's the answer? [/quote] Avoid 'share of the door' gigs unless the deal's watertight and you've got someone counting people in. Or: See each of the gigs as a party for your mates where the room hire was free, you got to choose the band and it only cost you £50 for a great night out. Plus, you've still got some wear left in the strings. Could have been worse. Could have been 'pay to play' - in front of a bunch of other peoples' friends who all walk out when you go on. Edited March 17, 2013 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 If you're in a covers band as a way of earning money, you need to be paid, no matter how much you love it. I'm sure plenty of people love their day-job, but wouldn't dream of doing it for nothing! An acquaintance of mine got a gig in a local pub before christmas. He's only 16 and trying to get his foot in the door. He got this gig, and was told that he would get free drinks on the night (this kid doesn't look or act 16, let alone 18, but that's another discussion) and that it would lead to more gigs. I advised him against in, because i don't think any landlord who thought you were worth paying for a gig would try and get your first gig for nothing. He did the gig, and never got another one. I've never played in a covers band, or done gigs in a pub, but i know plenty of people who have, and it's always the same story. Your first gig is never free, that's it! Free gigs are for the people who put plenty of work your way and can be trusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I absolutely hate pub/venue owners that say: 'There won't be much money, but treat it as a rehearsal.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1363540723' post='2013830'] I absolutely hate pub/venue owners that say: 'There won't be much money, but treat it as a rehearsal.' [/quote] "In that case there won't be any music, treat is as a lesson in running a pub." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='Clarebear68' timestamp='1363536224' post='2013752'] ....What's the answer?.... [/quote] You made lots of assumptions and got nothing. What did you expect? Wise up. Get organised. You have to arrange and agree [u]everything[/u] before you put the gig in the diary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1363541128' post='2013837'] You made lots of assumptions and got nothing. What did you expect? Wise up. Get organised. You have to arrange and agree [u]everything[/u] before you put the gig in the diary. [/quote] DING DING DING! We have a winner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger2611 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363540286' post='2013817'] If you're in a covers band as a way of earning money, you need to be paid, no matter how much you love it. I'm sure plenty of people love their day-job, but wouldn't dream of doing it for nothing! An acquaintance of mine got a gig in a local pub before christmas. He's only 16 and trying to get his foot in the door. He got this gig, and was told that he would get free drinks on the night (this kid doesn't look or act 16, let alone 18, but that's another discussion) and that it would lead to more gigs. I advised him against in, because i don't think any landlord who thought you were worth paying for a gig would try and get your first gig for nothing. He did the gig, and never got another one. I've never played in a covers band, or done gigs in a pub, but i know plenty of people who have, and it's always the same story. Your first gig is never free, that's it! Free gigs are for the people who put plenty of work your way and can be trusted. [/quote]I have to agree with the above comments, we will play a 1st gig at a venue (covers band) at a reduced fee but with the understanding of what our normal fee is and after the first gig the normal fee will apply there after. I guess where we are quite lucky is that largely the venues we play are wanting to re-book us so we are able to stand our ground over minimum fees however we will often play a venue that pays less than others just because it is a more fun venue to play I think with original songs we would be looking to do the right gigs with the right kind of exposure but would be fully prepared to go unpaid for the "right "gigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Things I always avoid:- Percentage of bar takings as payment. Percentage of door money as payment. 'Free' drinks. "We'll see how you do" deals. ... and of course, the whole 'Pay to Play' b*ll*cks. My advice will always be, if you want to get paid and someone tries to offer you one of the above, walk away from the deal - it'll cost you if you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 If you do a gig for free, then you don't place much of a premium on your skills and services or even time. So why expect anyone else to? As Chris says, wise up, and learn from it. You've made the mistake twice... don't compound it again. But if a band can't get £200 for a pub gig then maybe it isn't the right sort of band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I gig because I enjoy it. The money side of it is a bonus to me, but because my cover band bring lots of people and keep them drinking and having a great time for a few hours, of course we deserve a share of the profits. You tell the venue how much YOU want, and negotiate from there. The most flexible we've ever been is to give them a figure, and then let them haggle us down IF it's our first time playing there. As long as we agree if it's a good night we will get more bookings with a higher fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1363542326' post='2013862'] But if a band can't get £200 for a pub gig then maybe it isn't the right sort of band [/quote] Minimum we ask for on a first appearance at a pub/venue is £200, occasionally we settle for £150. Edited March 17, 2013 by chrismuzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 What JTUK and Chris b said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1363537193' post='2013760'] We gig to get paid. We have to enjoy it as well but we need to cover costs and gear and fuel isn't cheap. We will do a pub to tick over and keep things going on the basis that we will get a better paid gig out of it... but there is no way I'm playing for nothing. The £500 figure is borderline breakeven type figures for venues. Pubs will loose on those takings, if the band costs more than £200, to my thinking.. Clubs probably more so. The trick is to ALWAYS agree a fee... even when you are just starting out.. [/quote] Dead right. Always agree the fee. No payment = no play.... its as simple as that. agreeing to take a percentage on the door is a nonsense. Would you pay a plumber based upon the amount of times the toilet he fitted is flushed? Would you pay a joiner based upon the amount of times the door he hung was opened? We all love playing, its a passion, but do not let club/bar owners take the piss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1363544383' post='2013915'] Dead right. Always agree the fee. No payment = no play.... its as simple as that. agreeing to take a percentage on the door is a nonsense. Would you pay a plumber based upon the amount of times the toilet he fitted is flushed? Would you pay a joiner based upon the amount of times the door he hung was opened? We all love playing, its a passion, but do not let club/bar owners take the piss. [/quote] Useless analogies that i HATE being used, but i agree with the overall point. A guitar teacher i know, who has a LOT of gigging experience said that no matter what kind of gig he was playing, wedding, pub, whatever, he ALWAYS asked to be paid when he was setting up for the night. If he didn't get paid, he didn't play. That way he avoided getting done out of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1363544383' post='2013915'] Would you pay a plumber based upon the amount of times the toilet he fitted is flushed? [/quote] Isn't that how everyone does it? Pay-per-dump, I mean. As for the question of up-front payment on arrival ... an [i]interesting[/i] one to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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