How do different woods contribute to 'tone' in electric instruments?

[ingmar808]

Hi all. First post...

We can all hear different tones produced by different woods used in acoustic instruments.

With electric guitars and basses, a magnetic pickup converts the vibrations of a metal string into a tiny electrical signal. So, how can the type of wood influence the quality of this signal?

How does, for example, a maple neck contribute to a brighter sound than a rosewood neck on an electric bass?

Just wonderin'...

Edited March 19, 2013 by ingmar808

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Ingmar, and welcome to the forum...

[quote name='ingmar808' timestamp='1363656189' post='2015491']...how can the type of wood influence the quality of this signal?...[/quote]

[Robert Robinson]Ah, but does it, old chap..? There's the rub, you see...[/Robert Robinson]

I believe there was an experience done a few years back, in which a blind test was carried out between several traditional violins, including a Strad, and an aluminium instrument. Few 'experts' could tell them apart; although there was a slight preference for the alu violin.
What does this prove..? Not much, except my bad memory, perhaps. For my part, I can't 'hear' any difference in 'tonewoods', whatever the instrument. I'm a drummer, so what would I know, though. The debate is rife with us too, with the merits of maple v oak v walnut kits filling other forums (fora..?).
A can of worms, I fear. This thread could run and run...

[BassTractor]

Hi Ingmar,


Welcome!

There are lots of searchable threads on this that go deep or deeper into this matter, but simply put:
The electric instrument is still a bow, and the different parts can dampen/not dampen certain frequencies, just as the nut and bridge can transmit vibrations in different fashions, and like the different pickups also can have different magnetic fields that interact with the string in different ways.

In this complex, I tend to think the body/neck attachment and dimensions generally are somewhat underrated, and the body material generally somewhat overrated.


best,
bert

[Roland Rock]

Like BT says, the vibration is influenced by the thing that is holding the string tight, as the energy will pass into that as well. Make a bass from polystyrene, and one from steel, and see how different they sound!

When comparing different wood types, however, they are obviously much more similar materials, and the differences will be less pronounced. It makes sense to me that the more dense the wood, the 'brighter' the sound, as the vibrations are not absorbed by the wood as much. However, it's a small factor among many, so whether it's a discernible difference is debatable. One thing is for sure, nowhere has anyone shown that they can listen to a bass, and then tell you what it's made of. Far too many variables.

[Paul S]

[Conan]

[quote name='ingmar808' timestamp='1363656189' post='2015491']With electric guitars and basses, a magnetic pickup converts the vibrations of a metal string into a tiny electrical signal. So, how can the type of wood influence the quality of this signal?
[/quote]

Or, to approach it from a different direction, why would it not?

[EssentialTension]

Who was it that got banned last time we talked about this?

[EssentialTension]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/168570-tonewoods-hardware-and-the-science-of-great-tone/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/168570-tonewoods-hardware-and-the-science-of-great-tone/[/url]

[Happy Jack]

Walnut facings, that's all you need.

Just walnut facings.

[BigRedX]

There's 13 pages of "discussion" [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/73234-tonewoods/"]here[/url].

My view is that while the choice of wood will make a difference to a solid electric instrument (although not as much in the overall scheme of things as some would like you to believe), trying to quantify it's effect is almost impossible.

You could start to do it if the instruments were made out of a single piece of wood, or at the very least 3 pieces (one for the body, one for the neck and one for the fingerboard), but apart from a very few instruments they are not. Multi-laminated necks, multi-laminated bodies, even single wood bodies are generally made of several individual pieces glued together theses days. You are simply adding in too many variables to say anything meaningful about the contribution of a particular species of wood to the overall sound. And that's before you consider the effect of the neck joint construction, the overall shape and mass of the body, and the influence of any chambering (both dedicated chambering, as well as extra space created by the unused portions of pickup and control cavity routes).

On top of that, the idea that ever piece of wood from the same species of tree will behave in the same way is simply laughable. Just look at how the grain patterns change from one end of a plank to the other. They are constantly changing. And the idea that species X grown on continent A is going to have the same characteristics as the same species grown on continent B under different environmental conditions - it's simply a non-starter.

I have a whole load of basses made from a whole load of different woods, as well as several made from alternatives such as aluminium, carbon fibre, acrylic and other man-made materials (and some combining wood and non-wood in the same instrument). They all sound slightly different, but they all sound like bass guitars. I would defy anyone to be able to even be able tell the difference between an all man made material bass and one made entirely out of wood let alone what woods were being used in a test done by sound alone.

Pick a bass because it looks, sounds and plays how you want it. Don't worry about what it's made of.

Edited March 19, 2013 by BigRedX

[Conan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363681400' post='2015564']
Pick a bass because it looks, sounds and plays how you want it. Don't worry about what it's made of.
[/quote]

^This.

[Dave Vader]

Plywood sounds best due to it's inherent stability, and uniform construction

*runs and hides*
[size=4] [/size]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1363685595' post='2015649']
Plywood sounds best due to it's inherent stability, and uniform construction
[/quote]

Well, Jens Riter



and Bas Wittenberg agree!

[IMG]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/BigRedX/25_Bassen_B25_Multiplex_01.jpg[/IMG]

Edited March 19, 2013 by BigRedX

[Wil]

My one and only bass is made of plywood. It sounded terrible until I put good pickups in it, now it sounds great, so personally I'm fairly convinced that pickups (position and type) have a greater impact on your sound than wood type.

[chris_b]

Of course the choice of wood makes a difference to the tone of an instrument.

Everything on a bass, apart from the strap locks, affects the tone, including the construction and materials.

How much is down to the design goals of the luthier.

If you are interested find out what the major makers, like Sadowsky, Tobias etc, say about tone.

They know much more about this than we do.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ingmar808' timestamp='1363656189' post='2015491']
How does, for example, a maple neck contribute to a brighter sound than a rosewood neck on an electric bass?
[/quote]

I assume you are talking about fingerboards and not the actual necks themselves? I can't think of many basses where the actual neck is made out of rosewood.

And of course you do know that on Fender necks at least the ones with maple boards are constructed in a completely different way to those with rosewood boards?

And is the sound or the neck with the rosewood board down to the fact that the fingerboard is rosewood or the fact that by adding a rosewood board you have made a simple two material laminate? Would the neck sound the same if the back of the neck was rosewood and the rest including the face that the frets were set into was maple (assuming that the finished neck had the same proportions of maple and rosewood as the more conventional orientated example)?

This is why I mostly disregard the claims of tonal properties for woods by themselves on solid electric instruments, because those people have never shown enough proper scientific testing to convince me that construction and glue is not equally important (if not more so).

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1363689954' post='2015776']
They know much more about this than we do.
[/quote]

So they say.

The ancient Greeks could explain how Helios moved the sun across the sky with a chariot. The Romans had a similar, though slightly different explanation. Galileo then shocked everyone by showing that the sun didn't actually go around the Earth in the first place. Today, we think we know it all.

But, regardless of all the various ideas and theories throughout the ages, the solar system just carried on doing its stuff. It hasn't changed a jot - it's us that have changed our ideas.

So yes, I've no doubt 'expert' luthiers will be able to give us chapter and verse about the merits of their own particular little methods and materials, but the fact remains that there is no single 'best' bass because there are too many variables that we really don't understand.


Anyway, I'm just surprised that no one has mentioned the effect of paint colour on tone . . . . .

[chris_b]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1363691521' post='2015820']
....So they say.....
[/quote]


....and so my point is proved.

[flyfisher]

Ah. I see. You used an invisible smiley.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1363689954' post='2015776']

Everything on a bass, apart from the strap locks, affects the tone, including the construction and materials.

[/quote]

You straplock Nazis, you make me sick!

[neepheid]

As far as I'm concerned, the different woods thing is so insignificant in real world applications that I really don't give a monkey's about it. Until one can measure it in a repeatable experiment then it's a waste of time to even debate it. There are no hard facts in this, you can't even say that two pieces of wood from the same tree, never mind the same species or locality will be even similar, never mind identical.

Composition of the sound emanating from an electric bass in order of priority: Pickups (and that's probably something like three quarters of it), electronics, strings, then a heap of ill-defined other stuff like wood types, bridge mass, type of neck join, top loading or through body stringing (all of which I'd estimate contribute no more than 10% of the final sound).

It's sound, even if you can hear a difference, it's impossible to measure or place a meaningful quantity of change on, so all we're left with is a heap of ill-defined statements like maple fingerboards having "more snap" and other similar, fluffy, vague proclamations. If you want to bat back and forth the minutiae of basses then be my guest, but it all seems pretty pointless to me when you could simply enjoy the bass(es) you have for what they do for you, personally. Sound is all subjective, and whatever effect (not denying there will be an effect) the wood types have on the final sound, you'll make more difference to the sound mucking about with the EQ on your amp anyway.

[discreet]

[quote name='ingmar808' timestamp='1363656189' post='2015491']
...how can the type of wood influence the quality of this signal?
[/quote]

It doesn't. Next!

[hubrad]

I'd say it all makes a difference, however subtle.
I'd then agree that, when it comes down to it, the technicalities are worthless in the face of 'do you actually like this bass (or guitar, mandolin etc..)'
I know, through years of trying different instruments, that I have a particular liking for ash body/maple neck combination. As a fretless player I generally go for ebony board rather than rosewood, both tonally and in terms of trashing the board. That doesn't mean that just any ash/maple/ebony bass will really do it.. or that one made of mahogany will necessarily put me off.
I also wouldn't claim to be able to listen blindfold and tell you what something is made of, only whether or not I like the sound.
Relax.. this is music!

[alyctes]

These are very instructive. Try one out, and hear how much difference pickup position makes. After that it's very hard to believe that woods make much real difference, for me at least.

[url="http://flatericbassandguitar.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/on-rails.html"]http://flatericbassa...8/on-rails.html[/url]

Edited March 19, 2013 by alyctes

[thisnameistaken]

Wood looks nice though doesn't it. Except that ugly driftwood you get on really expensive basses. So long as wood looks nice I think that's a good enough reason to make guitars out of it.

I don't really buy into the idea that the wood is an important contributor to the sound of a solid body instrument though. Fair enough if other people do think it's important and are willing to spend extra to get a particular wood on their bass, but for me unless it's the fingerboard on a fretless so long as it looks good I don't really care.