Can cheap pots make your bass sound cr@p?

[Dom in Dorset]

I used some cheap pots (they came with the knobs I wanted) my bass sounds a bit dull (I have Wizard 64 pickups and new Fender black nylon strings) and has a low output.
Is it worth replacing the pots?

[discreet]

Speak to kiOgon (John)!

[icastle]

Nope.

In basic operation, all a pot does is provide a resistance that you can vary.
That resistance simply controls the amount of signal that passes through the pot.

In pure circuit terms, tone is controlled by the capacitor.

Black nylon strings are never going to be as bright as regular strings.

[Beer of the Bass]

If they're a lower value than the ones they replaced (say 250k in place of 500k), the bass will be duller sounding. Has anything else about the wiring changed?

[heminder]

Some signal is bled through the volume pot too, and will dull your tone. It's the value of the pot that matters most. 250 kiloohms will reduce the output slightly and round off the tone, while a 1 megaohm pot will give you the better signal and a more open tone.

Edited March 19, 2013 by heminder

[KiOgon]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1363716315' post='2016487']
Nope.

In basic operation, all a pot does is provide a resistance that you can vary.
That resistance simply controls the amount of signal that passes through the pot.

In pure circuit terms, tone is controlled by the capacitor.

Black nylon strings are never going to be as bright as regular strings.
[/quote]
I have to disagree with you on all 3 counts there - many of the kits I supply have made a terrific difference to what comes out of the bass, the pots etc are a vital part of the signal path & if you replace pots which are in any way less than 100% - there can be a huge improvement. The proof of the pudding is in my feedback.
The tone is affected by the capacitor - but only if the tone control pot is at less than full, (assuming standard wiring).
I use Black nylon GHS strings regularly on 2 of my basses 1 fretted & 1 fretless & there's no way they are 'less bright' than the equivalent flatwounds, just different, more mellow perhaps.

Cheerz, John

[KiOgon]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1363716948' post='2016499']
If they're a lower value than the ones they replaced (say 250k in place of 500k), the bass will be duller sounding. Has anything else about the wiring changed?
[/quote]
[quote name='heminder' timestamp='1363717047' post='2016500']
Some signal is bled through the volume pot too, and will dull your tone. It's the value of the pot that matters most. 250 kiloohms will reduce the output slightly and round off the tone, while a 1 megaohm pot will give you the better signal and a more open tone.
[/quote]

The difference is inaudible to normal hearing, OK on paper there's a difference - there's a miniscule to be gained on the higher frequencies of guitars generally speaking but I don't think any of us could tell the difference on a bass between 250/500K pots, (assuming the same quality & circuitry).

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1363717337' post='2016505']
I have to disagree with you on all 3 counts there - many of the kits I supply have made a terrific difference to what comes out of the bass, the pots etc are a vital part of the signal path & if you replace pots which are in any way less than 100% - there can be a huge improvement. The proof of the pudding is in my feedback.
The tone is affected by the capacitor - but only if the tone control pot is at less than full, (assuming standard wiring).
I use Black nylon GHS strings regularly on 2 of my basses 1 fretted & 1 fretless & there's no way they are 'less bright' than the equivalent flatwounds, just different, more mellow perhaps.

Cheerz, John
[/quote]
There is the whole confirmation bias thing though - when someone makes a change they consider to be an upgrade, they're going to perceive it as sounding better whether there's any quantifiable difference or not. It's a well documented phenomenon.
As far as I'm aware the only properties of the pots which could affect the sound are their resistance and perhaps a tiny (negligible?) amount of stray capacitance between the track and casing. How is the "quality" of the pot going to change the sound unless there's a difference in a measurable electronic property between the two? And if that property isn't resistance, what is it? Subjectively, I have noticed a difference when changing pot value, though I will concede this was not measured and there could be a touch of the bias I alluded to earlier.
Anyway, this is a bit of a digression from the OP. If a bass sounded worse with new pots, I would first be checking my work and second checking that the values are correct.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[BILL POSTERS]

If there is a difference, which I doubt, I dont reckon you would hear it at all with the volume and tone pots full on. 500K is 500K - or whatever value - no matter what make the pot is.

[Beer of the Bass]

Just in case I seemed a bit negative there, there are still plenty of reasons to go for good quality pots over the real cheapies; they last longer, feel better and often have a smoother taper.

[icastle]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1363717337' post='2016505']

I have to disagree with you on all 3 counts there - many of the kits I supply have made a terrific difference to what comes out of the bass, the pots etc are a vital part of the signal path & if you replace pots which are in any way less than 100% - there can be a huge improvement.
[/quote]

I'm gonna have to disagree with your disagree.
A pot allows you to vary resistance, that's its job.
Provided the track is flat and the wiper is sufficiently tensioned against the track, then electronically it makes no difference what pots you use - once it's been 'varied' it's just a resistor.

Where the more expensive pots 'win' is in the repeatable tolerances of the track and the smooth transition of the wiper - neither of which make a huge difference to the signal because you're average end user is going to set the position of the pot by ear as opposed to test equipment.

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1363717337' post='2016505']
I use Black nylon GHS strings regularly on 2 of my basses 1 fretted & 1 fretless & there's no way they are 'less bright' than the equivalent flatwounds, just different, more mellow perhaps.
[/quote]

Dom said his bass sounds a 'bit dull' but we don't know what he's comparing that 'dullness' to, I think there's a missing bit out of the equation here.

[heminder]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1363717618' post='2016510']
The difference is inaudible to normal hearing, OK on paper there's a difference - there's a miniscule to be gained on the higher frequencies of guitars generally speaking but I don't think any of us could tell the difference on a bass between 250/500K pots, (assuming the same quality & circuitry).
[/quote]

I replaced a 500k volume and dual 250k blend control with two 1meg vol/vol and I can definitely tell a difference.

Edited March 19, 2013 by heminder

[icastle]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1363718888' post='2016537']
If there is a difference, which I doubt, I dont reckon you would hear it at all with the volume and tone pots full on. 500K is 500K - or whatever value - no matter what make the pot is.
[/quote]

In fairness, the more expensive pots do have a much more reliable tolerance than the cheap ones.

A cheap pot labelled as 500K could be + or - 10% of that figure.
I would expect a more expensive pot to be + or - 5% of it's labelled value.

Most pots for the generic type of use we're looking at here are going to be carbon track and there's a finite tolerance that can be achieved with that particular material.

[icastle]

[quote name='heminder' timestamp='1363719809' post='2016557']
I replaced a 500k volume and dual 250k blend control with two 1meg vol/vol and I can definitely tell a difference.
[/quote]

Going from 250KΩ to 1MΩ is a hell of a jump.
If you couldn't hear a difference I'd be worried about you.

[heminder]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1363720350' post='2016564']
Going from 250KΩ to 1MΩ is a hell of a jump.
If you couldn't hear a difference I'd be worried about you.
[/quote]

Aye.
Not sure what ESP were thinking putting a dual 250k blend in a humbucker-loaded guitar.

Edited March 19, 2013 by heminder

[Dom in Dorset]

the bass in question is a new build, I wanted black knurled knobs, the cheapeast way to get them was to buy a loaded control plate from china. I used everything bar the plate itself.
Compared to my prototype (plywood bitsa with pickups of a Lindo bass, same type of strings) it sounds oomphless, no vah vah voom, worn out.
I was of the opinion that a pot is a pot, but I'm not so sure now, it's the only thing I haven't tried yet.

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='Dom in Somerset' timestamp='1363730403' post='2016843']I was of the opinion that a pot is a pot, but I'm not so sure now, it's the only thing I haven't tried yet.[/quote][quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363715043' post='2016469']Speak to KiOgon (John)! [/quote][/size]

Edited March 19, 2013 by discreet

[Beer of the Bass]

So you haven't heard these particular pickups in this bass before? It might just be that they're different sounding than the Lindo pickups! Vintage style alnico pickups like the 64s are quite likely to be mellower than ceramic magnet jobs, which I'd guess the Lindo pickups are.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[Ou7shined]

Been biting my tongue for a couple of years over this but finally a bit of sense on the subject... and from a mod no less

I think people get confused with pots on amps for example where you turn them and electronic stuff happens... sadly this confusion is open to exploitation. In a passive guitar circuit all your pots do is decide how much original signal is sent off to earth (where it so desperately wants to go). Imagine a cop directing traffic on a busy 3 lane road. In order to lessen congestion at the other end he diverts one lane of traffic off the main route onto an alternate route. The resulting [b]volume [/b]of traffic at the end of the main route is less but the "cr@pness" of the vehicles hasn't changed. In the case of the tone control, a cap sets a relatively arbitrary (yet fixed) cut-off point at which the upper frequencies are bled off (defined by the amount of twiddle on your pot of course). Turning the tone control full - in our traffic analogy you could say that a second member of our fine traffic constabulary waiting a little further down our two remaining busy lanes redirects all cars beow a certain engine capacity down a second alternate route while letting all other traffic pass unhindered. The volume of traffic at the end of the main road is unchanged but now there are no buzzy little puddle jumpers.

Yes an expensive pot may survive more twiddles and will give max and min values with a better degree of accuracy than a cheapy... but who's to say that 250k is bang on the R value you need anyway? What if 273.66k produced a nicer sweep for your particular pups/circuit? Oh hang on you don't get them. "Ach! Just hoy in a 250 they are easy to source and are close enough to what we want eh." Hmmm suddenly accuracy isn't an issue.

Unfortunately there are those out there who perpetuate the myth that expensive pots, fat old looking or oily caps (which ironically are less accurate than modern design ones) and "premium" wire (usually defined by the bit you see (its insulated covering) rather than it's actual conductive properties) can add something to your sound. PASSIVE CIRCUITS ARE ALL ABOUT WHAT IS TAKEN AWAY FOLKS. So in actual fact, if you wanted 100% of your tone's purest passive yumminess you'd be better off ripping everything out and going direct to the jack. But that's not entirely practical and maybe just a wee bit too anal... although you've gotta love the beautiful simplicity of a vol only circuit. Nice pots are great and all (it's all I use) but it would be better to choose them simply because you want to and not because someone has told you they will make anything sound better.

/goes back to it's lair for another year

[Dom in Dorset]

"PASSIVE CIRCUITS ARE ALL ABOUT WHAT IS TAKEN AWAY FOLKS." - but do crappy pots take something away? Think of a hose pipe, think of a leaky or twisted pipe.

[discreet]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1363751679' post='2017032']
...buzzy little puddle jumpers.
[/quote]

You leave Sir Elton out of this.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Dom in Somerset' timestamp='1363760494' post='2017047']
"PASSIVE CIRCUITS ARE ALL ABOUT WHAT IS TAKEN AWAY FOLKS." - but do crappy pots take something away? Think of a hose pipe, think of a leaky or twisted pipe.
[/quote]

They would have to be crappy to the point of being faulty, which is unusual even in the cheap ones. Since they're just a variable resistance, you can check 'em with a multimeter. Turn the knobs to zero and measure the resistance between the two outside contacts of the pot- this should be reasonably close to the value printed on the pot. Then turn the knob fully clockwise and measure from the centre (wiper) contact to the one at the clockwise end of the track - this should be very close to zero ohms. If this is the case, the pot is working as it should and will not sound different to another pot of the same value IME. As long as they work and they're not an inappropriately low value (<250K), I don't think the pots are the problem. It's possible you have a bad solder joint adding some resistance where there shouldn't be any, or that these pickups are just voiced differently to the ones you used in the prototype.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[Damonjames]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, if the value of vol pots makes no difference, why does a. Mexican fender jazz have 250k and a USA fender jazz have 500k? Surely the cost between the two is negligible. I thought it was part of making the USA fenders sound better and hence justify the price tag. I know mex pickups tend to be a little hotter than their us counterparts, but are still essentially the same design.
I made some mods to my Mexican jazz including gotoh bridge, dimarzio j pickups and installing 500k pots, so its gard yo know which contributed more but it destroys the previous setup, it's sounds awesome!

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1363989763' post='2020768']
At the risk of sounding ignorant, if the value of vol pots makes no difference, why does a. Mexican fender jazz have 250k and a USA fender jazz have 500k? Surely the cost between the two is negligible. I thought it was part of making the USA fenders sound better and hence justify the price tag. I know mex pickups tend to be a little hotter than their us counterparts, but are still essentially the same design.
I made some mods to my Mexican jazz including gotoh bridge, dimarzio j pickups and installing 500k pots, so its gard yo know which contributed more but it destroys the previous setup, it's sounds awesome!
[/quote]

Ok going deeper into the subject matter, if you put x amount of components in line with your signal you will affect the outcome. In a passive circuit placing a resistor between the signal and earth will inevitably dissipate a degree of original top end tone. Pups are (among other things) resistors and basically you should match your vol pot to the resistance of your circuit and calculate an overall load so as to not over do the natural loss. There are outdated rules of thumb which match 500s with buckers and 250s with single coils. But as you probably realise those rules really are silly now when you bring into the equation the wide choice of pups of differing values and circuits even more wildly so ie. HS or SSH or series/parallel and all the possible variables in switching between them all.
In short they do make a tiny tiny difference but as everyone in the world gets by with one of two choices no matter the circuit (even different manufacturers use different values in very similar circuits) how much of a difference is a difference? ................... Quite big according to some people.

[Rayman]

I'm not going to pretend I understand anything about electronics at all, I don't, but I know if something sounds good or bad to my ears.

I had a lengthy discussion with my tech about wanting an incoming bass (which I hadn't even heard or played at this point) to have its guts ripped out and replaced with CTS pots, switchcraft jack blah blah etc etc. Because I had a preconceived opinion of what I assumed would be budget quality parts, I assumed it would be a requirement to replace the "Duncan Designed" pickups because everyone reckons they're rubbish. Everyone's wrong. They might be lower output than the Basslines in my other bass, but they sound bright, and punchy and with a lovely jazz like honk, I think they're great.

I digress....during the chat with my tech he basically said that replacing the parts would be pretty pointless unless they were faulty. Replacing the pickups would be fine if I didn't like them, but why not try them for a bit first, then decide. Great advice, because I loved them regardless of the make or opinions of others. He then pointed out that cloth wiring looks lovely but is no different in performance to the plastic covered stuff already in there. same with the pots, if they work fine, leave them alone, don't waste your money.

So the bass arrived, and with a new set of strings and a setup, it was fabulous just as it was, without any pointless jiggery pokery.

From that, I learned, that I've wasted a lot of money over the years "[i]upgrading[/i]" basses that really didn't need anything doing to them at all.

The funk's in the fingers.....not in the lump of wood and wire they're holding.