Wireless for BRX

[BigRedX]

I know there's already a wireless thread (or two) here, but since I have rather specific requirements I thought that rather than hijack someone else's thread I'd start my own.

So I'm looking for a wireless rig for my bass, partly because I'm fed up of getting leads tangled up with the other members of the band and partly because I'm hoping that by the end of the year the Terrortones will be playing some larger stages.

Anyway here's what I need:

1. [b]Must[/b] be currently and for the foreseeable future legal in the UK and the rest of the EU.

2. [b]Must fit in a 1U rack space[/b]. That means either a 1U rack unit, or something that has dedicated 1U rack mounting kit. I will look at other units, provided that they attach securely to a generic 1U rack shelf with the minimum of bodging and that all the controls I will need to use are still easily accessible in this position.

3. If the unit fills the whole of the 1U space the output jack [b]MUST be on the front panel[/b].

4. [b]Must[/b] be possible to buy transmitters and receivers separately. I'm in the process of putting together a second smaller rig for gigs where transport space is limited, so I'm likely to need a second receiver before I need more transmitters.

5. Transmitter jack plug [b]must[/b] fit any jack socket in any position and work with both active and passive basses.

6. Transmitter pack [b]must[/b] be robust (we have a very "energetic" stage presence) and fit to my guitar strap securely, without the need to be held in place with gaffer tape.

7. Ideally the PSU for the receiver is built-in to the main casing. If it is an external PSU, one built into the plug (so long as it doesn't obscure the neighbouring sockets on a standard 4-way socket board) is preferable to one with leads either end.

8. The transmitter should use batteries that are easily obtainable, or if it's a rechargeable unit can be recharged quickly and easily.

9. Whole system needs to be reliable and work without drop-outs no matter where on the stage I am.

Anything that fits the bill?

[EBS_freak]

Off the top of my head.

1. That puts you in the digital camp
2. Shure ULX-D is the obvious rack option given 1. Also the Line 6 G90. Otherwise, look at the Sony DWZ-B30GB (non rack but I'm sure you can velcro it somewhere) or the DWZB70HL (rack but lavier system which can be used for instruments, when it comes out). Stageclix.
3. Shure is 1/2 width. Line 6 is full width. Sony is 1/2 width (but you need to buy rack kit) or the "brick" that is designed to go on a pedal board. Stageclix is like a Maplins box! Output on the back is not an issue if you use thin George L's to take the output back to the front as you can tease it between rack units.
4. ULX-D system available as seperates. Sony parts available as seperates. Not sure about Stageclix. Not sure about Line6.
5. Jack plug is a cable so make up as you wish otherwise Stageclix you can but so it uses a cable - avoid the "bug" type system.
6. Shure is metal case, Sony is metal case. Line 6 is metal case. Stageclix is robust enough. I have had a leather case to match my strap to hold my transmitter but there is a very good neotech pouch out there if you don't trust the clips on the backs of the unit. I would clip the unit to my belt or tops of trousers if you are concerned about having it strapped to the strap.
7. Out of the game. Both Sony and Shure are seperate PSUs. (Annoying isn't it?). Line 6 is IEC "kettle". Stageclix is also seperate PSU I recall.
8. AAs. Stageclix has it's own rebuilt batteries. Annoying if you forget to charge it.
9. Seems fair enough. All will fit the bill.



There are other digital offerings but I'm not up to speed with them - but they are more designed for lavier mic application. Be wary of high latency figures in the digital world. All of the above are low enough.

Shure if you are feeling rich, Sony or Line 6 if not. Otherwise Stageclix.

Edited March 30, 2013 by EBS_freak

[BigRedX]

Thanks!

Loads of information there and it will take some time to work through it all. At first glance the Shure ULXD system looks the best bet for me.

Front output is absolutely essential though. This will fill the last empty space in the front of my rack and so far there is no space between the other units to feed even the thinnest of cables through. I don't understand why the manufactures of rack-mounting wireless systems don't offer a unit with at least a duplicated instrument level output on the front. The front panel is after all where the input jack of the next piece of equipment in the audio is chain is most likely to be!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363788574' post='2017615']
Thanks!

Loads of information there and it will take some time to work through it all. At first glance the Shure ULXD system looks the best bet for me.

Front output is absolutely essential though. This will fill the last empty space in the front of my rack and so far there is no space between the other units to feed even the thinnest of cables through. I don't understand why the manufactures of rack-mounting wireless systems don't offer a unit with at least a duplicated instrument level output on the front. The front panel is after all where the input jack of the next piece of equipment in the audio is chain is most likely to be!
[/quote]

Just been thinking about it, with the ULX-D you will be able to pass a cable from the back to the front of the unit quite easily - where the BNC attached aerials attach to the rack mounting kit, you could easily drill another hole through the rack mounting (e.g. on the right panel in the pic) and feed a cable through or drill another hole for the aerial and use the hole on the left of the unit for an input... I did this on one of my rack setups and bought a nice rubber grommet in the hole to finish it off nicely. Something like this -



You get the idea anyway...

The ULX-D is an awesome unit. I will be upgrading to it at some point in the future. That way I can nicely rack my PSM900 next to it!

Anyway, here's the pic to which I'm referring.

Edited March 20, 2013 by EBS_freak

[LiamPodmore]

New Line 6 Relay G55 is due on sale in the next few months, or alternatively, you could look at the V75TR models. They're the vocal version for the lavalier mics, but you can buy both bits separate from places such as Thomann with ease, and it's a half rack receiver. 14 channels too.

Another random thought, could you not leave one of the rack bolts out, and run a George L/Lava/Diago/etc... solderless cable through the hole that the missing rack bolt has left? The cables are small enough, especially the Diago ones.

Liam

Edited March 21, 2013 by LiamPodmore

[EBS_freak]

Those new Line6 offerings looks pretty tasty.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363862695' post='2018480']
Those new Line6 offerings looks pretty tasty.
[/quote]

Yes they do. No rack mounting kit ATM if I'm reading the web site correctly though...

[EBS_freak]

Did you ever go wireless? See that the Line6 rackmount is available now.

[BigRedX]

I'm still looking. I was going to get the Sony if it would fit in a 1U space and could be powered off my existing 9V PSU as it was nice and cheap on Thomann. Will have to look at the new Line6 model now though...

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389194853' post='2331165']
I'm still looking. I was going to get the Sony if it would fit in a 1U space and could be powered off my existing 9V PSU as it was nice and cheap on Thomann. Will have to look at the new Line6 model now though...
[/quote]

From memory, it'll be a touch too tall for a 1u rack space.

It's a bit of a minefield all of this - the only company offering a rack mountable solution at a non crazy price is Line6. It's a shame that Shure decided not to put the GLXD in a rackmount format

Will be interesting to see what cards Sennheiser will play... as they are only looking at digital at the very top end of the market at the moment.

[tonyf]

Sorry I'm late to this.

Russ has been invaluable in advising me on wireless recently. I've used a Sennheiser EW172 for years and it's been like a tank. Ultra reliable and great sounding. However, trying to rationalise my gear further to lose the rack, I've just order a Sony DWZ-B30GB on Russ's recommendation to go digital. Fantastic price at the moment from Thomann ([url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/sony_dwz_b30gb_guitar_set.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/sony_dwz_b30gb_guitar_set.htm[/url]).

As Russ pointed out, it takes up SOOOO little space, that it can be either velcro'd into your rack or, as I'm doing, put onto the pedal board and run off the 9v power from the brick. I'm doing the latter as I want to lose the rack that I've currently got with my head and wireless in a 4U.

Should be landing today or tomorrow so I'll post up some views when I've had chance to try it out.

[EBS_freak]

You're a very restrained man Tony. New toy to play with and you didn't give it a bash?!

[BigRedX]

tonyf, I don't suppose I could trouble you for an overall height measurement of the Sony receiver including any items that protrude beyond the casing (like the knobs? It's difficult to tell from the photos)? If it can be squeezed into a 1U rack space, this might be the one for me.

EBS_freak, I've had a look at the rack mounting kit for the G55. Still no provision for a front-mounted output jack. I'd be very reluctant to be drilling into a brand new item just to fix an oversight by the designer/manufacturer.

[tonyf]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1389266491' post='2332023']
You're a very restrained man Tony. New toy to play with and you didn't give it a bash?!
[/quote]

Believe me, it wasn't easy mate. Had a band get together last night and Mrs TF (and TF junior) wouldn't have been that impressed with my late night wireless bass playing. [size=4]Frothing at the bit so it'll get a "good going over" later, rest assured![/size]

[tonyf]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389268230' post='2332055']
tonyf, I don't suppose I could trouble you for an overall height measurement of the Sony receiver including any items that protrude beyond the casing (like the knobs? It's difficult to tell from the photos)? If it can be squeezed into a 1U rack space, this might be the one for me.
[/quote]

Be my pleasure as soon as I've got home later and have had chance to set it up and have a play.

[tonyf]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389268230' post='2332055']
tonyf, I don't suppose I could trouble you for an overall height measurement of the Sony receiver including any items that protrude beyond the casing (like the knobs? It's difficult to tell from the photos)? If it can be squeezed into a 1U rack space, this might be the one for me.
[/quote]

Here's the dimensions from the manual. I was planning to remove my Sennheiser EW172 (which is 1u) from my rack tonight too so I should be able to check to see if it DEFINITELY fits into a 1u space.

[attachment=151909:ZRX-C30 dimensions.jpg]

[EBS_freak]

According to wiki...

One rack unit is 1.75 inches (4.445 cm) high.

You may just be in luck! Just!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389268230' post='2332055']
EBS_freak, I've had a look at the rack mounting kit for the G55. Still no provision for a front-mounted output jack. I'd be very reluctant to be drilling into a brand new item just to fix an oversight by the designer/manufacturer.
[/quote]

I've been thinking about this. I think the reason why there is no front mounted output jack is because I would wager most of these systems are used for wireless mic (either handset, lapel, headset) and hence would have no reason to have a duplicated jack. I'm guessing in Line 6's case, they would argue that most guitarists would use a pedal board so they would say that the pedal board solution is the one to go for.

Looking at the design of the Line6 and the rack kit, I reckon you could sneak a George L through the corner. Looks like there would be just enough clearance to get the cable in between the rack units and through that corner... but that is, of course, unconfirmed.

As for the Sony receiver, everything is flush. The knobs are set into the unit and the tops are flush with the top. Whilst I had my Sony unit, I don't think I ever changed it from channel 1 - and never had one bit of problem with it. Must have played over 40 different venues with it including hotels with comprehensive wifi... and the Sony didn't drop out once.

[BigRedX]

Tonyf, At 41mm (does that include the feet? It's difficult to tell from the diagram) it should just squeeze in. If you can check on your rig and let me know for sure that would be great!

BTW where did you find the diagram - I couldn't even find dimension figures on Sony's site.

EBS-freak, I'm still not convinced about the logic of only having the output jack on the back of the Line6 unit. If you have the rack mounted version surely it would make sense for to have both front and rear mounted jack? If you are going to use it with a pedal board you'd buy one of the non-rack mounting units which are cheaper anyway. All my serious rack mounted guitar orientated equipment has front and rear mounted jacks to give you maximum versatility when patching the gear together.

On the other hand for me to expect logic from Line6 is probably pushing it my expectations too far. Lets hope their design implementation gets better now they've been bought by Yamaha.

Edited January 9, 2014 by BigRedX

[tonyf]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1389274587' post='2332183']
One rack unit is 1.75 inches (4.445 cm) high.
[/quote]

Another Russ Jedi-mind trick. I'd looked at exactly the same wiki when searching for the same height dimension. lol

[tonyf]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389276897' post='2332233']
Tonyf, At 41mm (does that include the feet? It's difficult to tell from the diagram) it should just squeeze in. If you can check on your rig and let me know for sure that would be great!
[/quote]

I think the 41mm excludes the feed looking at the dimensions. Seems they've only measured the actual physical box rather than the detachable rubber feet. I'll check later anyway with both dimensions as I'll probably be taking off the feet to velcro it to my pedal board.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1389275524' post='2332201']
Looking at the design of the Line6 and the rack kit, I reckon you could sneak a George L through the corner. Looks like there would be just enough clearance to get the cable in between the rack units and through that corner... but that is, of course, unconfirmed.
[/quote]

With the ABSOLUTE quoted 1u height, there's always going to be a bit of "wriggle room" anyway once you've got the screws eased off in the rack and eased stuff up and down a mm or two. My Sennheiser EW172 has a rear output so I've had to take a short (permanently plugged in) lead out of it and between the rack adapter and the amp into the EBS head. It was tight but a bit of a wriggle and then the screws retightened and jobs a good one.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389276897' post='2332233']
BTW where did you find the diagram - I couldn't even find dimension figures on Sony's site.
[/quote]

I downloaded the operating manual from the Sony site and screen grabbed the picture. There's a couple of manuals on the site, this was the more extensive one but there was also a quick start guide. IM me your email and I'll whizz it over.

[size=4]HTH[/size]
[size=4]Tony[/size]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389276897' post='2332233']
EBS-freak, I'm still not convinced about the logic of only having the output jack on the back of the Line6 unit. If you have the rack mounted version surely it would make sense for to have both front and rear mounted jack? If you are going to use it with a pedal board you'd buy one of the non-rack mounting units which are cheaper anyway. All my serious rack mounted guitar orientated equipment has front and rear mounted jacks to give you maximum versatility when patching the gear together.
[/quote]

Sennheiser, Shure, Line6, Lectrosonics, AT, AKG, the main rack players... none of them have an output on the front (apart from a headphones which is designed for use by the monitor engineer). There is obviously argument enough for it not to be there. There are primarily there for vocal mics. Maybe I shall ask next time I speak to somebody on the inside why the output isn't present on the front. They'd probably argue that any decent rack gear should have inputs and outputs on the back leaving the front for controls! I suppose it's the equivalent of putting a HDMI cable on the front of the tele!

It would make sense to have front and rear mounted jacks for the purpose you are looking for but I believe we are in the minority using rack gear for wireless right next to our amps. The manufacturers have decided that we should be using pedal versions of the wireless... and when you look at the majority of players, that actually makes the most sense. I guess the manufacturers see most of the gear we see on stages as toys - the real rack stuff wants all the external antenna... and that is never going to be visible right up on stage.The market trend is to get away from bass rack gear anyway. Why take up real estate on the front of a rack wireless unit when more useful information can be displayed on screen - and that's what the monitor engineers care about. A looped round cable will solve the problem - a bit annoying if that's going against how you imagined your setup to work.

Even Axient and D9000 don't have front outputs... simply because most guitarists won't be putting them in their racks. Generally, AV companies would be taking care of that from their racks and probably using digital distribution over long cable runs to get the signal to near your gear without any impact on quality.

Anyway, to do it properly, as above, we shouldn't even be using standard cables to go from wireless unit to preamp. The tech way is Dante. The transmitter sends it digital to the receiver. Receiver sends data stream via Dante to Dante input on your bass system. Conversion to analog takes place. No capacitance on the line! No loss of signal.

Despite all of this, I understand that it's probably annoying for you.

Edited January 9, 2014 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[url="http://www.lectrosonics.com/ASPEN-Series/bob88.html"]http://www.lectroson...ries/bob88.html[/url]

Dante will kill everything. Running say 48 channels of audio (ins/out) over a single (or a pair of resiliant) cat 6 seems preferable to traditional cable. Digital recording of every track from the source to mix post the event, zoning... in fact, if everybody got on board the (expensive atm) Dante wagon, analog cable could be a thing of the past.

Edited January 9, 2014 by EBS_freak

[tonyf]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1389276897' post='2332233']
Tonyf, At 41mm (does that include the feet? It's difficult to tell from the diagram) it should just squeeze in. If you can check on your rig and let me know for sure that would be great!
[/quote]

BRX, I've taken the rack apart tonight and rejiggled my floor board to mount the DWZ receiver. Mightily impressed with it. Plugged in, minimal fuss and just worked. The transmitter is simple, rugged and elegant.

Here's a pic of the receiver before I'd pulled the amp out the rack. It looks a perfect fit to a 1u slot secured to a bit of velcro. As Russ has said, it'll be a set and forget with the channel. I've just cycled through all of them and although there were a couple of flickers on the indicator on some channels, not a squeak through the amp with the transmitter off.

TBH, for under £200 quid from Thomann, it's an absolute steal. I'd go for it mate.

Let me know if there's anything else you need to know.

[attachment=151964:photo 1.JPG]
[attachment=151965:photo 2.JPG]

Cheers
Tony

[BigRedX]

Fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to do this for me.