allighatt0r Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Lately i've been dipping into theory, learning scales and how scales are created, how chords are made and what makes a major chord a minor chord (flat 3rd right?) Now this is all very well, i feel like i'm getting a grasp on the logic of music, but what i don't understand is how to translate a scale into something that sounds fluid and musical. I'm playing notes that fit together because they're in the right key and scale, but they don't sound musical, they sound like notes. I've tried humming along to a recorded chord progression, making a solo with my mouth so-to-speak and what i'm humming is passable, but translating that to the bass it sounds completely rubbish. I've borrowed a book from my brother called Power bass (soloing secrets) by Bunny Brunel, but to me it's just giving me what scales to play and when, not how to make a solo out of this scale. For example, the first example track on the CD is a simple blues progression in C (I, IV, V) and Bunny is telling me to use using the Mixolydian scale. This is all very well but i still don't understand what notes to use when and how to make this scale sound decent. Does anyone understand? is there some sort of secret or do i just have to keep practising and getting frustrated until one day it clicks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 And thereby hangs the problem. The question you are asking is that to which the greatest musicans in the history of the art form have focussed their individual and collective minds. You are asking for the Holy Grail to be sent to you Recorded Delivery. The only strategy is years of trial and error. Transcribing other peoples solos, preferably NOT bass players, will give you insights but, to sum it up simply, your choices of what constitutes a musical idea is yours and yours alone. Mine will be different. That's why all musicians are different. You make it musical using your experience as a listener and player and, gradually, over time, your ideas formulate and become coherent and carry their own form of internal logical. If you practice hard, your ideas will begin to appear. If you practice really hard, they will be good ideas, appreciated by other listeners. If you practice hard forever, you may have ideas that move other people and that amount to a voice of your own. Remember - its the journey that matters, not the destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulf Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Keep trying to apply it, keep trying to make it sound musical and listen to the results... and all that excellent stuff Bilbo pointed out above. You can't just add water to make all the notes work - you need a mixture of perspiration with flashes of inspiration. Wulf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 The 'difficulty' with music is that it is so subjective, and so variable. What one person thinks is musical is mediocre or crap to someone else, and vice versa. And it is artistic, not academic in the sense that something either works or it doesn't work. And that obviously has an impact on how effective and fruitful our practice time is, for if we practice mindlessly nothing but can come of it except perhaps technical prowess. I found that the most beneficial thing for me to do was listen and to listen intently, to pieces, songs, and especially my own playing. As you say, a scale is not musical [i]per se[/i] but it contains the [i]potential[/i] to be musical. So the simplistic explanation is to unlock the potential. What I did was to get inside the sound of the scale, notes within the scale, random/ordered/deliberate phrasings of notes within the scale, and to try and internalise what 'feel' they have. For instance everyone can identify a minor chord, major chord, or in terms of style, we can all identify something that 'feels' spanish/flamenco, we can all identify what sounds 'rocky' (I'm talking about melody and harmony rather than rhythm and genre here) etc. Do you see what I'm getting at? Try each scale and assign at least one word to describe each scale, and pick out one or two notes in each scale that [u]you[/u] think really underpin the feel of that scale; this way you'll start to truly identify what sounds certain scales embody, and how you personally identify their sound, thus internalising it and growing your musical understanding and making that understanding your own. Obviously, try to build licks out of them. Also, if you can loop a basic chord (be it a power chord or otherwise) or get an infinitely delayed pad, try noodling over the top of that. Once you've identified how certain notes in a scale (or intervals, bear in mind that there's only 12 in a given octave) through many sets of scales, you can start to appreciate, realise and cement your understanding of what intervals have what sound. Thus essentially opening your ears up to hearing all sorts of ideas and knowing how to move about in a given key (or keys!) to achieve a given sound. Does that make sense? It is highly conceptual and, as we've said, very subjective. So don't worry too much if it doesn't click straight away, but keep working at it! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Excellent advice. I'd also like to add that one of my best investments as a bass player was buying a cheap piano keyboard, and using it to work on the advice given above. I found that working exclusively at "bass level" gave me a worm's eye view of music - transcribing and playing chords and melody significantly expanded my overall sense of music. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='wulf' post='207274' date='May 27 2008, 02:55 PM']...you need a mixture of perspiration with flashes of inspiration.[/quote] ...and just a hint of masturbation. (Thanks, Joe Orton). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote]I found that working exclusively at "bass level" gave me a worm's eye view of music - transcribing and playing chords and melody significantly expanded my overall sense of music.[/quote] Ooo good point! I remember my ear first opening up transcribing Satriani's stuff on guitar, as he uses a lot of odd scales, modes, modulations and what he calls 'pitch axis' theory. Effectively he plays in G something, then switches to another G something or another scale that shares a similar note to the scale/key he was. Great for ear training as it allows you to compare intervals against each other. Also whilst you [i]can[/i] freely and effectively improvise harmonically and melodically (in a non bass function sense) on bass, it requires a slightly higher standard than it does to do the same thing on piano or guitar. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 I don't know. But, I do know how to make a Duck in to a good singer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='207311' date='May 27 2008, 03:49 PM']I don't know. But, I do know how to make a Duck in to a good singer [/quote] You put it in a microwave til its Bill Withers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='bremen' post='207312' date='May 27 2008, 03:50 PM']You put it in a microwave til its Bill Withers?[/quote] Amen brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='207313' date='May 27 2008, 03:51 PM']Amen brother [/quote] By the way, was meaning to ask you, what's ET short for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='bremen' post='207314' date='May 27 2008, 03:52 PM']By the way, was meaning to ask you, what's ET short for?[/quote] Cos' he's got short legs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='207353' date='May 27 2008, 04:32 PM']Cos' he's got short legs? [/quote] High five! We're here all week, folks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='bremen' post='207356' date='May 27 2008, 04:36 PM']High five! We're here all week, folks...[/quote] Woo!! Britain's Got Talent next!! All we need is a sob story and we're sailing through... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='207357' date='May 27 2008, 04:38 PM']Woo!! Britain's Got Talent next!! All we need is a sob story and we're sailing through...[/quote] All we need is an Englishman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bremen' post='207360' date='May 27 2008, 04:39 PM']All we need is an Englishman.[/quote] Hmmm, or an English dog.....My Dog was born in England so we're SORTED!!! Our plan is back on track!! More High Fives!! And by the way, my Dog has no nose... Edited May 27, 2008 by Old Horse Murphy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='207362' date='May 27 2008, 04:41 PM']Hmmm, or an English dog.....My Dog was born in England so we're SORTED!!! Our plan is back on track!! More High Fives!! And by the way, my Dog has no nose...[/quote] I'm sure he copes admirably. Bremen, Old Horse and his dog walk into a bar. The barman says: -Is this some kind of joke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 ...and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability.... *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD1 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Hey mate Listen to horn players. Or, try singing the notes - within the scale you are working with (or not). Your imagination will help you come up with melodies and take your fingers away from the patterns they have been programmed with. Also, get Band in a Box, and practice playing along with the chords. Start off with the root on each chord, then start playing the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th etc. Then start joining them up with passing notes That will also give you some good ideas for melody and also help you nail your fingerboard navigation. I'm crap at doing all of this by the way but apparently its good advice! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Cheat and buy some books full of patterns and licks. [url="http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=17"]http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=17[/url] If you're struggling to put together a blues solo then you're not copping enough licks from other players: blues/rock guitarists, jazz players and soul/r&b players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allighatt0r Posted May 27, 2008 Author Share Posted May 27, 2008 Thanks very much for all the great advice (and not so great jokes ) Just a couple of questions, when you say transcribing something, you just mean listening to something and writing down all the notes (in order), and then using that to figure out what they're doing and why? And, if i widdle around enough for long enough, eventually something should click, but how long it takes to click depends on the person clicking? (that was a mouthful. ) Thankyou again for being patient and giving alot better advice than other people i've asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 [quote]And, if i widdle around enough for long enough, eventually something should click, but how long it takes to click depends on the person clicking? (that was a mouthful. )[/quote] Mmm, not really? No more than sitting in lectures not paying attention, or reading a book without considering it will help you to absorb or understand the information. No amount of widdling will further your musical understanding if you don't consider or evaluate why what works and where. And even that is subjective. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 There's one word that everyone has missed: [i]melodies[/i]. Scales become musical when they appear to function as a melody instead of an exercise. Get your favourite tunes and work out the chords and melody (or find a book if you just can't do it). Taking jazz as an example, if you're looking for melodies based on chord tones (i.e., arpeggios) then try any jazz before the mid 50's. For more scalar melodies try modal jazz (60's). Of course many artists overlap in both genres but it's a good starting point. If the tune is fairly simple the chords will probably be in one or two keys. In other styles of music the whole song (read: [i]melody[/i]) will often be in one key. This allows you to not only see how a scale works over a given chord, but also how to chain scalar or chordal lines together through changes. The next step is to build ascending and descending lines through chord changes using just half and whole steps and keeping going in the same direction when the chord changes - this is linear playing that goes beyond just one scale or one chord (harder but worth it!). Larger intervals, irregular groups and changes of direction will provide more musical interest - for example, R-4-3-2-7-5-6-9 is much more interesting and melodic over a major scale than R-3-2-4-3-5-4-6-5-7-6-R etc. One final piece of advice to make scales music. Don't start and end exercises on the root! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Good point(s) to emphasise Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 [quote name='XB26354' post='207613' date='May 27 2008, 09:48 PM']There's one word that everyone has missed: [i]melodies[/i].[/quote] Well, not [i]everyone[/i]; [quote name='endorka']...transcribing and playing chords and melody significantly expanded my overall sense of music...[/quote] But I guess it is worth saying twice :-) Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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