Stingray Ball Family Reserve

[Paul_1991]

Have seen a couple of these floating around on the web and I must say they are a stunning bass and I am tempted. I own a 20th Anniversary Stingray so I understand the quality of such instruments, and it would be nice to add another "hard-to-find" bass to the collection. Has anyone owned/tried the Stingray Ball Family Reserve or seen one in the flesh? I'm weighing up going for that or sitting it out waiting for another Modulus to pop up! Thoughts, opinions etc, let me hear them!

Paul

Edited March 24, 2013 by Paul_1991

[Kiwi]

So many limited editions and so little time!

[Dingus]

I've seen and played one or two , and they are essentially more fancy versions of standard EBMM basses . I don't think they are higher level of construction quality than ordinary EBMM basses , but that is because ordinary EBMM basses are such good quality to begin with that there is not much that they could do to improve on that standard for the special ones , if you see what I mean . It's not like the difference between a regular Fender and Fender Custom Shop where the latter is usually much better made than the standard model .

[Paul_1991]

Totally agree with the above and thanks for the replies. Guitar Village had one in a sale at £1599 with a retail at around £2500. Bass Gallery also have one for around £2100. Guitar Village got back to me and said even though their sale had finished, they would still sell it to me at the sale price. I mean, seems a good price for a bass of that standard, it's new and cheaper than the Classis MM series. I'll mull it over.

Paul

[Dingus]

This shop is a major EBMM dealer and get quite a few special EBMM basses in stock :

http://www.knightonmusiccentre.com/bass-guitars/musicman/cat_13.html

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Paul_1991' timestamp='1364146781' post='2022480']
Totally agree with the above and thanks for the replies. Guitar Village had one in a sale at £1599 with a retail at around £2500. Bass Gallery also have one for around £2100. Guitar Village got back to me and said even though their sale had finished, they would still sell it to me at the sale price. I mean, seems a good price for a bass of that standard, it's new and cheaper than the Classis MM series. I'll mull it over.

Paul
[/quote]

I was gonna pick up the Natural Classic but couldn't bring myself to spend £1600 plus in the
end, without playing it.

[Redburst]

Most of the BFR's I've seen are quilted finished and such. without pickguards; though some go the extra mile and have all-rosewood necks.
Might as well get one's Balls all tarted up if you can!

[Musicman20]

New normal Rays are about £1400+ now. I guess when I bought my Stingray natural 3 EQ over ten years ago for £1000, I now have that figure stuck in my head. After that amount of time, of course they go up.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Redburst' timestamp='1364154801' post='2022659']
Most of the BFR's I've seen are quilted finished and such. without pickguards; though some go the extra mile and have all-rosewood necks.[/quote]

IIRC there are three types of BFR bass - a BFR Sterling 4 string, in various 'BFR' colours with figured top, no pickguard, special fret markers; 10 off SR5 in bahama blueburst which preceeded the 20th Anniversary model (5 in US; 5 to international dealers) and finally a series of regular model EBMM basses with all rosewood necks - the neck has the BFR logo on it, but otherwise it's a regular bass.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1364157034' post='2022702']
New normal Rays are about £1400+ now. I guess when I bought my Stingray natural 3 EQ over ten years ago for £1000, I now have that figure stuck in my head. After that amount of time, of course they go up.
[/quote]

Yeah I'm with you on this, Gareth - my SR5 natural was £995 new, ten years ago. The pound is very low against the dollar at the moment (1.49 last time I looked - when I was thinking of buying a nice late 80s Stingray from a shop in USA).

If this continues, it will put prices of US made musical equipment up even more.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1364173843' post='2022874']
Yeah I'm with you on this, Gareth - my SR5 natural was £995 new, ten years ago. The pound is very low against the dollar at the moment (1.49 last time I looked - when I was thinking of buying a nice late 80s Stingray from a shop in USA).

If this continues, it will put prices of US made musical equipment up even more.
[/quote]

Yes, and it applies across the board. It IS worrying. At a time when other products are dropping prices and making less profit, just to shift units, musical instruments, etc, are increasing prices.

For instance, I was born into the Nintendo generation, having the first proper Nintendo 8 bit console back in the late 80s, (approx!).

This casual hobby has stayed with me, and the video game market has grown to even have huge adverts on prime time television. The gaming industry is one that seems to stay, no matter what the economy thinks.

However, Nintendo released a new console in late 2012, and it hasn't shifted the units expected. This is probably due to the fact they need more games for it, and the simple fact that people cannot afford to splash out.

Less than 6 months ago, it was £300+. The games were about £40+. Now? Game prices are dropping to £30 or less, and the console bundle I just bought used to be £350.00, and was only £199.99. £150.00 OFF the original price for a brand new console. Just saved myself a lot of money, and it worked, as the lower price means I'm now tied to buying games for it.

THIS drives sales. I've no idea how the instrument market works, but I've seen some trade pricing sheets for various bass amp manufacturers, and if they drop some of the prices, more people will bite.

But, I agree, £1300 for a new Ray H seems reasonable considering they used to be £1000 without a case over 10 years ago. I imagine they can't afford to keep them at that price though. I expect Fenders to go up soon as well.

On the other hand, Gallien amps have come DOWN in price, yet they make them ALL in the USA, instead of their previous overseas factory. Weird.

I do wish we had a large manufacturer of basses over here in the UK, so we could pay less!

Edited March 25, 2013 by Musicman20

[Dingus]

One major difference with the guitar market is that it can't benefit from cheap hi - tech manufacturing bases in the Far East in the same way so many consumer goods can nowadays . The price of computers and related equipment and televisions , for example has fallen drastically in the last few years for example , but that same phenomena will never apply to guitars because of the way they are made . Furthermore , the secondhand price of most EBMM basses will continue to be low despite any price increases because of the saturated market , and it would take a decrease in supply and increase in demand to significantly change that . That is never likely to happen . I know we have all had this discussion before , but the whole bass market is depressed at the moment and will continue to be so for the majority of equipment . The only exception is for basses that are relatively rare or exclusive and highly desirable , and I would emphasise that they have to combine both of those qualities . So if you want to invest in new basses my advice would be to bear that i mind . Alternatively , for people with spare cash , the secondhand prices some stuff is selling for on Basschat is a chance to stash away some great gear at very reasonable money .

Edited March 25, 2013 by Dingus

[drTStingray]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1364173843' post='2022874']
IIRC there are three types of BFR bass - a BFR Sterling 4 string, in various 'BFR' colours with figured top, no pickguard, special fret markers; 10 off SR5 in bahama blueburst which preceeded the 20th Anniversary model (5 in US; 5 to international dealers) and finally a series of regular model EBMM basses with all rosewood necks - the neck has the BFR logo on it, but otherwise it's a regular bass.[/quote]

Sorry I missed out the BFR Redwood Stingray - no pickguard - flame or quilted top - 100 made (IIRC).

I agree with you Dingus, the whole musical instrument market is depressed currently - ask any retailer. But decent used equipment that is sought after, and possibly in very good condition, will fetch good prices - recent sale of a mint late 80s trans red Stingray at £900 (compared with the 'well used' late 80s blueburst at £560 - as reported in another thread).

Edited March 25, 2013 by drTStingray

[Dingus]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1364220140' post='2023323']
Sorry I missed out the BFR Redwood Stingray - no pickguard - flame or quilted top - 100 made (IIRC).

I agree with you Dingus, the whole musical instrument market is depressed currently - ask any retailer. But decent used equipment that is sought after, and possibly in very good condition, will fetch good prices - recent sale of a mint late 80s trans red Stingray at £900 (compared with the 'well used' late 80s blueburst at £560 - as reported in another thread).
[/quote]

I suppose the mint condition combined with the late 80's vintage and attractive trans red combined to give the right criteria ie rare and desirable . All I am trying to say is that for anyone who is disposed towards investing money in new basses ( as I know yourself and Gareth are , generally speaking ) if you want to avoid the kind of knock in price you would get on a recent Stingray or Warwick , try and find something that you want and like that is relatively hard to get hold of in the U.K and , most significantly , is something other bass players would dearly love to get their hands on . The problem is getting gear over from the States at a reasonable price - it is unlikely that the pound will rise significantly against the dollar anywhere in the near future , and it is extremely difficult to see that the powers that be who are able to influence the currency markets will ever allow it to rise above $1.70 again , certainly in the next ten years . Goods are priced to a market anyway , and so even if the pound was stronger against the dollar , all that would mean is bigger profits for the manufacturers and distributors ; only a small benefit in terms of pricing would be passed on to the customer . Considering that , it is difficult to see anything except the current state of affairs where American basses are just priced within people's grasp , but we are all left with the dissatisfaction of thinking that we have payed that bit too much for what we have got . To get back on topic , these BFR basses would only appeal to me at a hefty discount , because they are limited editions but made in relatively large numbers and the models themselves offer little practical advantage over the standard models being their more fancy appearance . I don't think the long term resale value would reflect the much higher price someone had paid for one of these .

[Delberthot]

If you want a corker of a Stingray then get yourself a 30th Anniversary with the mahogany body. If you want the rarest and arguably best fretless there is IMO then get one of the 20ish made unlined fretless versions.

Still my dream bass. I had a 30th but always really wanted a fretless one. Beautiful and sounds amazing as well

[stingrayPete1977]

I don't think any ebmm will rival any pre eb for holding its value, they are also awesome!

[drTStingray]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364239868' post='2023726']
I don't think any ebmm will rival any pre eb for holding its value, they are also awesome!
[/quote]

I know they are good and have a following, but no one has a crystal ball to see what things will be like in 30 yrs time. Bear in mind quite a few buyers/owners of 50s/60s Fenders are guys who are in their 60s/70s - they may flood the market when the inevitable happens - with a reduction in price accordingly (unless, as Dingus says, they're something unusual and special). You only have to look at the situation with classic cars to see the parallel. The current situation is Musicman basses are treated with quite a reverence by bass players - they have a good following and apart from some detractors who clearly don't like them, will probably continue to be - which augers well for the saleability of used ones I guess. The market will go up and down though.

[quote name='Delberthot' timestamp='1364237999' post='2023692']
If you want a corker of a Stingray then get yourself a 30th Anniversary with the mahogany body. If you want the rarest and arguably best fretless there is IMO then get one of the 20ish made unlined fretless versions.

Still my dream bass. I had a 30th but always really wanted a fretless one. Beautiful and sounds amazing as well
[/quote]

I remember nearly buying one of these used from Bass Central - I didn't (and also passed on a NOS fretless 2005 LE Ray they had) because I wanted a standard Ray - eventually a mint 93 came up on Ebay, which I still have. I don't regret this but would like to snag a fretted 30th at some point. Expensive though!

The LEs, Anniversary models and BFRs do command higher prices - rare ones even more so. Bass Central had a stealth HH Ray unlined fretless quite recently - most probably a one off - now that was the height of cool for my eyes - ebony board as well!

Edited March 26, 2013 by drTStingray

[stingrayPete1977]

Seen a few 30th rays sell cheap on here alone dr t! I think whatever the newer ones cost the older ones will be double of a standard one and a few hundred more than any LE version, look how cheap some classics are becoming compared to the rrp.

[Dingus]

That 30TH Anniversary 'Ray was a very remarkable sounding ( and good looking ) bass , I must admit . I wanted one at the time , but I was put off by the weight . Mahogany seems to really help give some extra focus to the typical Stingray tone on EBMM basses , and I would include the models with mahogany tone blocks in that as well as the solid mahogany ones .

[drTStingray]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364244745' post='2023828']
Seen a few 30th rays sell cheap on here alone dr t! I think whatever the newer ones cost the older ones will be double of a standard one and a few hundred more than any LE version, look how cheap some classics are becoming compared to the rrp.
[/quote]

Yes I can see your point - I think where I'm coming from is that the idea that something old is good and desirable changes with generations - you only have to track/watch antique auctions to see this - beautiful artefacts which were worth a fortune twenty years ago are now only worth scrap value in some cases - painful but true in some cases. I'd love to have a crystal ball but methinks the baby boomer generation is most heavily responsible for the 50s/60s music scene and for its perpetuity - the next generation (mine) may not be so kind to its heritage and artefacts.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1364245362' post='2023849']
That 30TH Anniversary 'Ray was a very remarkable sounding ( and good looking ) bass , I must admit . I wanted one at the time , but I was put off by the weight . Mahogany seems to really help give some extra focus to the typical Stingray tone on EBMM basses , and I would include the models with mahogany tone blocks in that as well as the solid mahogany ones .
[/quote]

I like the look of the 30th Anniversary more now than when they were available. I also once tried a Reflex - I was extremely impressed. Now that would be a nice used instrument to buy.

Edited March 26, 2013 by drTStingray

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1364261026' post='2024125']


Yes I can see your point - I think where I'm coming from is that the idea that something old is good and desirable changes with generations - you only have to track/watch antique auctions to see this - beautiful artefacts which were worth a fortune twenty years ago are now only worth scrap value in some cases - painful but true in some cases. I'd love to have a crystal ball but methinks the baby boomer generation is most heavily responsible for the 50s/60s music scene and for its perpetuity - the next generation (mine) may not be so kind to its heritage and artefacts.
[/quote]
What I am saying is that in that situation then if the pre eb ones were worth say a hundred quid a normal ray would be fifty and even a collectable ebmm like a bfr would be eighty at best.

I agree things go up and down but I can't think of a single example of an item where a newer version of something is worth more than an original one, see all fenders for example

Edited March 26, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[thisnameistaken]

Are the prices of vintage instruments still inflating or are they just keeping up with inflation now?

I can't help thinking the bubble will burst eventually. Sure the instruments are getting older but they're not really getting any rarer.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1364286215' post='2024214']
Are the prices of vintage instruments still inflating or are they just keeping up with inflation now?

I can't help thinking the bubble will burst eventually. Sure the instruments are getting older but they're not really getting any rarer.
[/quote]
This is what they said about lotus Cortinas a few years ago when they hit £15000, now they are £40k at least!

[drTStingray]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364298600' post='2024454']
This is what they said about lotus Cortinas a few years ago when they hit £15000, now they are £40k at least!
[/quote]

We're miles off topic, but as a man with a strong interest in Mini Cooper Ss (the old type) - this is because there is a generation of people (generally middle aged or elderly now) who dearly want to take them historic rallying - they are rare, and desirable particularly for that purpose - and follow 'the Dingus rule' mentioned earlier. Generations come and go - I would not be surprised to see the price of run of the mill vintage Fenders (as opposed to minters) fall.....or rise dependent on the number around, and their desirability for use as a working instrument - those fortunes may be linked to the type/amount of music for which they're suitable, currently on a high (BUT remember the 80s anyone? Keyboards rule OK!).

Who knows with pre EB v EB instruments - I think they're all great but I'm biased - most bass players hold them in some reverence.

Edited March 26, 2013 by drTStingray

[stingrayPete1977]

Not selling mine ever anyway