Do we appreciate technical skill more than musical beauty on here?

[xilddx]

I've often thought there is more appreciation of technical skills than musical beauty from the majority of players on here. I know we are obviously striving to improve our skills so we listen to great players, but are we forgetting what music is all about?

It also seems to me a lot of skillful players feel the need to use those skills hence the technical displays of chops and a leaning towards jazz or techie music, or, god forbid, rapid slap.

There is a lot of denigration of simpler music too, as if it's naive, commercial pap, or an excuse for poor musicianship, when often the reverse is true.

Is the point of music often missed in light of this? If I'm right, that is.

[matski]

Personally I prefer a good song - simple or otherwise - to a chopfest.

[cheddatom]

I don't think that's the case at all. It must be more to do with what's interesting to talk about. The beauty in music - how it makes you feel personally, is not easily expressed or shared, where as comparing gear and "chops" is...? could be talking bollocks

[discreet]

Bass pyrotechnics and 'virtuoso' playing leave me completely cold. Apart from the Korean transvestite, obviously - he's got great legs. As I think I may have said more than once , the bass guitar is not a solo instrument. In my humble opinion, of course.

[Low End Bee]

I'm bolloxed if people don't like it simple.

[bremen]

I've always reckoned there's more folk here who value holding a groove, supporting a song or making a fearful racket than who go for virtuosity.

[Lee Carter]

Simple or Complicated, if the groove is locked in nice and tight to the drummer and serves the song then I have a smile a mile wide (well inside anyway), whether playing or listening. I've personally never gained any joy from the 'look at this video of me playing really quick/complicated/slappy' brigade. There is more to technical skill than technical skill...if that makes any sense.

[Dr.Dave]

It's good to study and discuss the technical side of playing. It shows us what can be done.

Then the clever ones decide what should be done.

There will always be those who choose not to play very technical stuff because they shouldn't - and those who can't make that choice because they simply can't do it. I suppose we should all strive to be the former.

[bobbass4k]

Musicality and aesthetics always wins for me. I like complexity and skill but not when it's just for the sake of it.

This to me is one of the most beautiful songs ever:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK62cRA92-g[/youtube]

[Conan]

Is it safe to have this discussion? Is Inti/Antelope anywhere withing hearing distance...?

Simple is good. But often it seems that we have to go through some kind of "life cycle" as a musician. You start off crap (obviously), but through practise and dedication start to get quite good. Some people stop there and are quite happy.

Others aspire to more, so they practise harder and longer. Maybe learn theory. Maybe have lessons. They start to get seriously good, and start to demonstrate their expertise by playing all over the music that they play.... Some people are impressed...

Then comes the "economy" stage. You know where the notes are, and how to play them. You may well have a commanding knowledge of technique and are skilled in various styles.... BUT (and that's a big but) you [b][i]choose[/i][/b] not to play them all the time! You are now a tasteful player and are a far more valuable commodity to bands and other musicians.

For that reason, never judge a player by what they play. You have no idea what they [i]can[/i] play!

Edited March 26, 2013 by Conan

[arthurhenry]

Stu Hamm's Moonlight sonata is a useful example, I think. Can you listen to it without thinking about the technical element of the playing? Would he want you to? It's impressive and probably useful in terms of an exercise in dexterity, but who wants to hear it on electric bass? Do you ever think about about the technical skill involved when you hear it on piano, or just enjoy the beauty of the music?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1364316982' post='2024786']
Is it safe to have this discussion? Is Inti/Antelope anywhere withing hearing distance...?

Simple is good. But often it seems that we have to go through some kind of "life cycle" as a musician. You start off crap (obviously), but through practise and dedication start to get quite good. Some people stop there and are quite happy.

Others aspire to more, so they practise harder and longer. Maybe learn theory. Maybe have lessons. They start to get seriously good, and start to demonstrate their expertise by playing all over the music that they play.... Some people are impressed...

Then comes the "economy" stage. You know where the notes are, and how to play them. You may well have a commanding knowledge of technique and are skilled in various styles.... BUT (and that's a big but) you [b][i]choose[/i][/b] not to play them all the time! You are now a tasteful player and are a far more valuable commodity to bands and other musicians.

For that reason, never judge a player by what they play. You have no idea what they [i]can[/i] play!
[/quote]
Superb post mate.

[Lynottfan]

I have often found that if you need a degree in music just to try and appreciate what someone is playing then that really has missed the point of what playing music is all about, but not every one looks at it like that for sure. I don't agree that the bass guitar is not a solo instrument, infact far from it, but as with any aspect of playing, be it solo or in a group what is required is a decent melody and taste. I will add however that as a solo instrument that is something that I find lacking in a lot of bass guitar pieces, as a fair amount tend to just decend into mindless slap or cacophonic jazz doodling, imho.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1364316444' post='2024772']
....I'm bolloxed if people don't like it simple....
[/quote]

My situation also.

[Conan]

[quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1364316920' post='2024784']
This to me is one of the most beautiful songs ever:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK62cRA92-g[/media]
[/quote]

Lovely! But I'm biased coz I like Mogwai...

[Mr. Foxen]

Techinical stuff on the instrument you play is useful for learning. If musicality is the thing you are learning, you can learn it from any instrument.

[Conan]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1364317164' post='2024791']
Superb post mate.
[/quote]

[Conan]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1364317427' post='2024796']
Techinical stuff on the instrument you play is useful for learning. If musicality is the thing you are learning, you can learn it from any instrument.
[/quote]

Yes... but you still have to have the technical ability to be able to play the "musical" stuff that you hear in your learned head

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1364317613' post='2024801']
Yes... but you still have to have the technical ability to be able to play the "musical" stuff that you hear in your learned head
[/quote]

I have no idea how that is a 'but'.

[BigRedX]

Technical ability is easy to quantify. However quality of the music itself is entirely subjective. Therefore technical abilty is easy to discuss whereas the music simply comes down to do you like it or not? - end of story.

I'm a song writer first and foremost so technical ability only matters to me when it prevents me or one of the members of my band realising the ideas I have for a piece of music. Ideally we practice until that is no longer an issue.

What leaves me cold about a let of technical prowess I see demonstrated especially on bass is that it is compensating for the fact the player is deliberately making things difficult for themselves by using an instrument which is not best suited to the sounds/music being produced.

TBH I rarely listen to individual instruments in a piece of music, but enjoy the overall effect. If I do notice any instrument in particular it's normally because I think there is something inappropriate about the sound or note choice for that piece of music.

[doomed]

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1364316444' post='2024772']
I'm bolloxed if people don't like it simple.
[/quote]

Me too, low, slow and simple for our stuff. Oh, and LOUD.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1364316982' post='2024786']
Is it safe to have this discussion? Is Inti/Antelope anywhere withing hearing distance...?

Simple is good. But often it seems that we have to go through some kind of "life cycle" as a musician. You start off crap (obviously), but through practise and dedication start to get quite good. Some people stop there and are quite happy.

Others aspire to more, so they practise harder and longer. Maybe learn theory. Maybe have lessons. They start to get seriously good, and start to demonstrate their expertise by playing all over the music that they play.... Some people are impressed...

Then comes the "economy" stage. You know where the notes are, and how to play them. You may well have a commanding knowledge of technique and are skilled in various styles.... BUT (and that's a big but) you [b][i]choose[/i][/b] not to play them all the time! You are now a tasteful player and are a far more valuable commodity to bands and other musicians.

For that reason, never judge a player by what they play. You have no idea what they [i]can[/i] play!
[/quote]

Nicely put. I would add that it is only after a player has been through this right of passage, that they are then able to play simple lines extremely well. It's more of a feeling than a tangible difference. Subtle dynamics within a bassline, instinctively knowing exactly how long to hold the note for - these things come instinctively with a combination of good technique, experience and talent. You can't put your finger on it, but you know that you're listening to a top-drawer player. So, in that sense, technical ability, in the form of ultra-subtle nuances, is part and parcel in the most beautiful music.

But what we're really talking about here is fretboard pyrotechnics, right? I don't care how complicated something is to play, what's important is that I like the music. When someone posts a vid of some 'impressive' playing, I tend to scroll down so that I hear it, but don't see it. That way, I can more easily objectively judge whether the sounds that that person is making are pleasing to my ears

[chrismuzz]

I went through a phase of a good few years where technical skill was very important to me. It's not that much of a big deal any more. But if there's a really well written and great sounding piece that really speaks to me and just happens to have a lot of complicated stuff in there, I do get rather excited

[thodrik]

Musical beauty is completely subjective. So is technical skill, albeit to a lesser extent when one person's 'virtuoso' is another person's 'overrated'. There is also the potential inverted technical snobbery, whereby every bassist who doesn't play simple root notes is accused of overplaying.

Still, I think that in terms musical compositions which interest me personally, technical skill on an instrument is often less important than knowing basic music theory. I am often more impressed by use of an interesting harmony or inverted chord than I am by double thumbing, slapping, tapping etc. To me though, there is a difference between 'choosing' to keep it simple and 'having' to keep it simple, which is why I still try out new ideas, even if I have no real intention of using them outside of practice.

I can't say I've noticed a 'pro technical' v 'pro-muscality' divide on this forum though. I've only noticed a tendency to look down on anyone who chooses to cut mids and use a smiley face EQ!

[JTUK]

I'm all for a good song..... but you have to be able to play it.

To have all the 'chops' under the sun is no good if it feels crap..but then a good song ruined by poor playing is just as bad.