Do we appreciate technical skill more than musical beauty on here?

[Mr. Foxen]

Definitely better to start with learning good technique from the beginning. Musical comes with some time, and is limited by poor technique.

[Dingus]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1364315972' post='2024761']
I've often thought there is more appreciation of technical skills than musical beauty from the majority of players on here. I know we are obviously striving to improve our skills so we listen to great players, but are we forgetting what music is all about?

It also seems to me a lot of skillful players feel the need to use those skills hence the technical displays of chops and a leaning towards jazz or techie music, or, god forbid, rapid slap.

There is a lot of denigration of simpler music too, as if it's naive, commercial pap, or an excuse for poor musicianship, when often the reverse is true.

Is the point of music often missed in light of this? If I'm right, that is.
[/quote]
[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1364316982' post='2024786']
Is it safe to have this discussion? Is Inti/Antelope anywhere withing hearing distance...?

Simple is good. But often it seems that we have to go through some kind of "life cycle" as a musician. You start off crap (obviously), but through practise and dedication start to get quite good. Some people stop there and are quite happy.

Others aspire to more, so they practise harder and longer. Maybe learn theory. Maybe have lessons. They start to get seriously good, and start to demonstrate their expertise by playing all over the music that they play.... Some people are impressed...

Then comes the "economy" stage. You know where the notes are, and how to play them. You may well have a commanding knowledge of technique and are skilled in various styles.... BUT (and that's a big but) you [b][i]choose[/i][/b] not to play them all the time! You are now a tasteful player and are a far more valuable commodity to bands and other musicians.

For that reason, never judge a player by what they play. You have no idea what they [i]can[/i] play!
[/quote]

I can see where you are coming from with this - hell I even agree with you to a large extent - BUT ... there is a tendency in music and musicianship at the moment to equate simple with good and simple with tastefulness and a more mature and deeper understanding of music as a whole . This is quite simply not true , and is an exercise in sophistry and one upmanship . Simplicity is not aesthetic justification in itself : simple music and economic playing by musicians is just as apt to be rubbish as complicated music and highly technical playing . It is far too easy to champion the supposedly more wholesome simple approach , but music is a highly complex art form and a myriad of approaches can yield the most effective results . The best musicians are capable of a varied approach within their own stylistic limitations , and the simple fact is that sometimes in certain situations complicated[i] is [/i]better . Simplicity is not a virtue in itself , rather it is just one approach that can produce a musically satisfying final product , as can many other approaches . That is why music has infinite variety .

Edited March 26, 2013 by Dingus

[icastle]

As a young, fresh faced youth I was told by a 'seasoned' bass player "It ain't the notes you play, it's the one's you leave out that matter."

One of the best pieces of musical advice I've ever been given.

He's long gone now, and I increasingly find myself taking his place.


Not that any of you b*gg*rs are young, fresh faced youths...

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1364315972' post='2024761']
I've often thought there is more appreciation of technical skills than musical beauty from the majority of players on here. I know we are obviously striving to improve our skills so we listen to great players, but are we forgetting what music is all about?[/quote]

When listening to any YT links posted on here for interest it always comes down to the bottom line for me; does it move me enough to want to know or hear more? Though when it doesn't there are times where you're taking your life in your hands saying so.

Can I just say; that you've been asking a lot of deep questions lately Nige - which I've enjoyed seeing the responses to, without it turning into a musical snobbery or brow-beating contest. Thanks!

[Marvin]

The best bass player I've seen live was both musically and technically phenomenal. He shredded like a guitarist, actually I think he did everything, and had so much passion and beauty in his playing it was stunning and truly inspiring. And it all fitted in the context of the band. The whole band just kicked arse. And I'm not talking about a gig where people were just stood around like a bunch of cheering sycophants, the whole place was dancing, literally. Everyone came out of that gig wishing it could have gone on longer.

A bit like Dingus' point, you've either got it or you haven't. Simple can be good but discount technical at your peril.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Marvin

[TheGreek]

I, like many others here, aspire to be a [i]great[/i] bassist - whether or not I ever will be is debatable - in life in general, I want to do the best I can at whatever I can ([i]it's what me muvva taught me..[/i]) so my aspirations on the bass are part of who I am.

I love technical stuff, my fave bassists are Mick Karn, Stanley Clarke and Jaco, amongst others - doesn't mean I don't listen to less complicated stuff - I am prone to a bit of Michael Buble - I just try not to go on about it here (whoops I just did). I bet I'm not alone in this.

[b]If there isn't room for both technical and simple then I'm having a hissy fit and throwing my toys out of the pram.. [/b]

[Muzz]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1364317930' post='2024815']
Technical ability is easy to quantify. However quality of the music itself is entirely subjective. Therefore technical abilty is easy to discuss whereas the music simply comes down to do you like it or not? - end of story.

I'm a song writer first and foremost so technical ability only matters to me when it prevents me or one of the members of my band realising the ideas I have for a piece of music. Ideally we practice until that is no longer an issue.

What leaves me cold about a let of technical prowess I see demonstrated especially on bass is that it is compensating for the fact the player is deliberately making things difficult for themselves by using an instrument which is not best suited to the sounds/music being produced.

TBH I rarely listen to individual instruments in a piece of music, but enjoy the overall effect. If I do notice any instrument in particular it's normally because I think there is something inappropriate about the sound or note choice for that piece of music.
[/quote]

This. All of it. Saved me having to type out essentially the same thing...

[EssentialTension]

I just like music. I'm not really interested in technical skill except insofar as it helps me to play or listen to music. Most so-called virtuoso playing leaves me cold and when it doesn't it will be because I like the tune. I'd much rather hear Pastorius playing with Joni Mitchell than doing his own stuff. I liked Japan but I've never sought out Mick Karn's solo stuff. etc.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1364317103' post='2024788']
Stu Hamm's Moonlight sonata is a useful example, I think. Can you listen to it without thinking about the technical element of the playing? Would he want you to? It's impressive and probably useful in terms of an exercise in dexterity, but who wants to hear it on electric bass? Do you ever think about about the technical skill involved when you hear it on piano, or just enjoy the beauty of the music?
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOhIjLL5ejg

Personally I think it sounds amazing as a bass arrangement, it really fits the dark mood of the tune, although the quality of that clip is a bit dodgy - cant find a better one of the full thing though.

[Conan]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1364321575' post='2024882'] Simplicity is not aesthetic justification in itself : simple music and economic playing by musicians is just as apt to be rubbish as complicated music and highly technical playing .
[/quote]

True. I said "simple is good" though, not "simple is best"

[Davetheglitz]

When listening to music I only ever notice the bass player if he is amazingly good or truly terrible. Most bass players are there and would leave a great big hole if they didn't play.

In my opinion I can count the number of worthwhile bass solos on one hand.

A lot of technical players to my mind are not musicians but applied mathematicians.

[SpaceChick]

In my bass lessons I use double tapping, classical bass and slapping. This is developing me holistically as a bassist.

However, for both my rock bands, what I need is to honour the song and fit with the musicians I play with..... Sometimes this is with exciting basslines, sometimes it's a good use of root notes.

As discreet says the bass is not a solo in the main, so we have to honour the music, however that will be best.

[Spoombung]

I typed an answer then deleted it. It's always the same with your questions, Silddx

[bremen]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1364329559' post='2025036']
I typed an answer then deleted it. It's always the same with your questions, Silddx
[/quote]

I totally agree with the points you made. It's always the same with your posts, Spoom

[Spoombung]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1364329892' post='2025039']


I totally agree with the points you made. It's always the same with your posts, Spoom
[/quote]

Tee - hee! :-D

[lowdown]

[quote name='Davetheglitz' timestamp='1364328166' post='2025007']
A lot of technical players to my mind are not musicians but applied mathematicians.
[/quote]

A highly trained classical musician would have to have a lot of technique
to execute a lot of the demanding parts thrown their way in an Orchestral situation.
But i get your drift.


Garry

[seashell]

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1364316444' post='2024772']
I'm bolloxed if people don't like it simple.
[/quote]

Tee hee, another one here too! :-)
We were rehearsing last night and I found to my surprise and delight that I could actually play all the songs without making any mistakes! So I thought to myself - well now I'm going to try to make it actually sound nice (rather than the sound of a chimp with dyspraxia).
But as soon as I thought that, I started making mistakes!
It'll be a while yet before I can venture beyond the simple, lol

[icastle]

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1364329559' post='2025036']
I typed an answer then deleted it. It's always the same with your questions, Silddx
[/quote]

Yep

Nige has got a great knack of getting people to think 'outside of the box'.

When you've done that, you turn round and find that the old b*gg*rs gone and redefined what 'the box' actually was when you weren't looking.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Davetheglitz' timestamp='1364328166' post='2025007']
... not musicians but applied mathematicians.
[/quote]
These two are not mutually exclusive.

[gjones]

I love the simplicity of Klauss Voormann's basslines on many John Lennon tracks. He is the master of holding back. I also love the way John Lennon puts Klaus's bass to the front of the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELwfVR7yKCg

[Pembo]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1364318464' post='2024826']
When someone posts a vid of some 'impressive' playing, I tend to scroll down so that I hear it, but don't see it.
[/quote]

That's what it's all about for me aswell. I judge on how the bass sits in the song. Length of sustain, timing of root note, dynamics, etc. Hate nothing more than the bass being too prominant in a song when there is no need. Love the bass on "This Will Destroy You", "Spiritualized", "Explosions in the Sky", etc. They always FEEL right. Also love the bass on Van Morrisons "Astral Weeks". Not technically great and sometimes slightly out of time, but feels so, so right....

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Pembo' timestamp='1364334831' post='2025146']
Also love the bass on Van Morrisons "Astral Weeks". Not technically great and sometimes slightly out of time, but feels so, so right....
[/quote]

I love the bass on that album. Like you say, the (mis)timing is part of the charm, notes like big fat raindrops falling onto an arid landscape :-)

[OliverBlackman]

Often people misunderstand certain music and label it as 'choppy' when it's actually because they don't understand or can't relate to what it is they are listening to. By learning how to play it you will often find the musical purpose of it. To say " idon't like that because it is too technical" is a big mistake.

[Pembo]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1364335895' post='2025178']
Often people misunderstand certain music and label it as 'choppy' when it's actually because they don't understand or can't relate to what it is they are listening to. By learning how to play it you will often find the musical purpose of it. To say " idon't like that because it is too technical" is a big mistake.
[/quote]
i'd personally say it's an inability to relate, as opposed to misunderstanding. I can appreciate why technical playing is needed in certain scores, but because i can't play technically, I can't relate. Also, it depends on what genres the listener is into. Personally, I like slowcore, minimalist, country and blues. Therefore, I rarely see past the root notes that are required. Then for me it's all about how that (often) one note sits between the other instruments.

[ZenBasses]

Can I mention

Queen - Under Pressure

Us there actually a better anti-technical bass line that kicks like no other.

That 7 note sequence can just be played once and it's instantly recognisable.

Proof is in the pudding people

I'd rather have a homemade jam rolly polly any day..

Edited March 26, 2013 by ZenBasses