Whats your opinion on using different capacitors.

[wiringwizardz]

[b]Hi Everyone[/b]

[b]I'm new to this forum so go easy on me if this topics been brought up before.[/b]

[b]Just wondering what people's opinions are of the different capacitors on the market.[/b]

[b]Do some people prefer the Standard Orange Drops,[/b][b]Oil-in-Paper, Cornell-Dubilier Wax Reproductions, Mallory Mustard or the Mojo-Tone Vitamin caps. [/b]

[b]Thanks[/b]

[iiipopes]

All capacitors do the same thing. I have tinkered with electric guitars and basses since I got my first mail-order electric guitar in 1975. There is no difference in tone from brand-to-brand for the same value. What does make a difference is that some manufacturers have tighter tolerances, so there is more consistency from unit to unit. However, even this is not an issue with one-time purchase for a bass guitar circuit. The only reason to pay a premium price for a particular brand or model of capacitor is if there is an historical reason for restoration of a particular vintage instrument that has demonstrated its value to factory original.

What makes more difference is the value: .022 is the "standard" value for a guitar tone capacitor, and is the brightest when rolled down. .033 is a mid-value that I prefer to retain more mids as I roll off my tone control on my bass. .047 is the "standard" value for most bass guitar circuits, and .1 really darkens up a neck pickup for a dub tone.

Edited March 28, 2013 by iiipopes

[paul_5]

I've not noticed any massive differences in types; other than paper in oil caps will eventually dry out. When making or modding pedals is probably where it's worth spending an extra couple of pence (literally) on poly/box caps due to the tighter tolerances, but that's about it.

[ikay]

+1 as iiipopes says, the cap value is the critical bit, not the brand or material.

This is an interesting thread on cap values and the difference they make - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f38/multi-capacitor-tone-control-737912/

There's a phenomenon that occurs when you turn your tone control ALL the way down (rather than just roll it off a bit). When fully down the value of the capacitor in your tone control is adding to the internal capacitance of the pickup. It lowers the resonance frequency of the entire circuit and gives you a bump in output at that frequency. In effect this gives your mids a small boost when the tone is fully down. The frequency at which this 'mid boost' happens is determined by the value of the capacitor.

[wiringwizardz]

[b]So the value of the capacitor is more important rather than the make.[/b]

[b]From my own personal experience i prefer 0.1uf on 250k pots because it really sucks all those high freq out of it when i'm tweak the tone. [/b]

[iiipopes]

Yes, that was Leo Fender's original circuit for just that purpose.

[JapanAxe]

If you fit a Sprague orange drop cap, you also get a warm glow from thinking you are one up on all the sad losers with their crappy ceramics caps

[iiipopes]

I do use the orange drops, but not because they are a status symbol. It is because they are readily available and less expensive in the .033 value here where I live, and which I prefer to keep a little more mids in the mix when I do turn down my tone knob on my bass.

For other applications and other values of capacitors, I also confess to using the "crappy" inexpensive ceramic disc capacitors. Yes, I'm speaking in jest also as it is difficult, even with emoticons, to express satire or irony. I especially use a smaller ceramic disc version when I use a push-pull with a .0047 to emulate the traditional Rickenbacker style high pass circuit on a bridge pickup.

Here's the deal: if you have a push-pull switch or other component, sometimes the smaller radial lead ceramic capacitors are easier to install on a switch or potentiometer, and as stated above, they don't look out of place in the control cavity. On the other hand, companies like RIC or older Gibson guitars use axial lead capacitors when using them as a jumper between components.

So, again, to sum up, it's not the brand, per se, for tone, that determines what may be the best capacitor, but it is value that determines the tone, the construction or company reputation that may have a bearing on the consistency of the product, and the style or mechanical aspects of the capacitor that may determine its appropriateness for longetivity or physical application.

Bottom line: good guitar- or bass-application capacitors are inexpensive. Don't fall for the marketing hype.

Edited March 29, 2013 by iiipopes

[Mr. Foxen]

Cap replacements usually come at the same time as pot replacements, its the pot that generally makes a difference.

[umph]

polyester and paper in oil are the best quality and most linear caps, at the signal levels coming off pick ups it doesn't make much of a difference though

[AngelLaHash]

As in that talk bass link I suggested a on/off/on switch
Caps in parrell are summed up
So lowest value you use is always connected
Also cheaper and easy to work out values

100nF was nice deep the 47nF seems common
I was in the middle of making the megatone switch that is suggested in the like
Had talked to the maker, he explained changes he made too

I think I stopped because I didn't have some 150K ohms
Plus I was adding a Music man type of pickup to my p-bass
And it was getting repainted, just got put on hold
Need to pull my figure out as I got a little cousin wanting a guitar

4n7F with 39nF and 18nF, that will give you (43n7F, 4n7F, 22n7F) on a cheap on/off/on switch
[Caps do have a 5% leeway] plus the way I did it you only need 1P2T (on/off/on)

Edited April 11, 2013 by AngelLaHash

[Dad3353]

[quote name='AngelLaHash' timestamp='1365715660' post='2043530']
As in that talk bass link I suggested a on/off/on switch
Caps in parrell are summed up
So lowest value you use is always connected
Also cheaper and easy to work out values

100nF was nice deep the 47nF seems common
I was in the middle of making the megatone switch that is suggested in the like
Had talked to the maker, he explained changes he made too

I think I stopped because I didn't have some 150K ohms
Plus I was adding a Music man type of pickup to my p-bass
And it was getting repainted, just got put on hold
Need to pull my figure out as I got a little cousin wanting a guitar

4n7F with 39nF and 18nF, that will give you (43n7F, 4n7F, 22n7F) on a cheap on/off/on switch
[Caps do have a 5% leeway] plus the way I did it you only need 1P2T (on/off/on)
[/quote]

Good evening, AngelLaHash (or may I call you Angel..?)

My fault, I'm sure, but would you mind posting the music to this, on a standard stave..? It's the scansion, you see; I can't seem to get the rhythm right. Nice lyrics, though.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='umph' timestamp='1364651562' post='2029234']
polyester and paper in oil are the best quality and most linear caps,
[/quote]

What does that actually mean?

[iiipopes]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1365719361' post='2043615']
What does that actually mean?
[/quote]
A capacitor is two films of metal, called the "plates," with a thin insulator sandwiched between them, and leads soldered internally to each film of metal. The insulator is also called the "dielectric." What the poster is referring to is on some capacitors the dielectric is a thin film of polyester plastic only a few mils thick, and on some traditional old-style capacitors the dielectric is exactly that: a strip of thin paper actually soaked in an oil.

Here's how they work: the thicker the dielectric, the more voltage that the capacitor can handle, but this separates the plates. The farther apart the plates, the less electricity they can interact with, so the lower the capacitance, and therefore the plates have to be larger to have the same capacitance. This is why capacitors with a larger voltage rating are usually also larger in physical size. the plates and dielectric are usually flexible and wound around together so the capacitor can be made more compact, like a Sprague "orange drop" or "bumble bee," two very popular lines of capacitors for electric guitar and bass applications.

[AngelLaHash]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1365719125' post='2043610']
Good evening, AngelLaHash (or may I call you Angel..?)

My fault, I'm sure, but would you mind posting the music to this, on a standard stave..? It's the scansion, you see; I can't seem to get the rhythm right. Nice lyrics, though.
[/quote]
ahh right took me a while to figure out being sarky (and in that case you can call me SIR )
as im more in to Electronics than Playing (do think that people who play are dam good)

[flyfisher]

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1365747828' post='2043734']
A capacitor is two films of metal, called the "plates," with a thin insulator sandwiched between them, and leads soldered internally to each film of metal. The insulator is also called the "dielectric." What the poster is referring to is on some capacitors the dielectric is a thin film of polyester plastic only a few mils thick, and on some traditional old-style capacitors the dielectric is exactly that: a strip of thin paper actually soaked in an oil.

Here's how they work: the thicker the dielectric, the more voltage that the capacitor can handle, but this separates the plates. The farther apart the plates, the less electricity they can interact with, so the lower the capacitance, and therefore the plates have to be larger to have the same capacitance. This is why capacitors with a larger voltage rating are usually also larger in physical size. the plates and dielectric are usually flexible and wound around together so the capacitor can be made more compact, like a Sprague "orange drop" or "bumble bee," two very popular lines of capacitors for electric guitar and bass applications.
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation, but I knew all that.

What I asked was, what does "[i]polyester and paper in oil are the best quality and most linear caps,[/i]" actually mean?

Specifically, what does 'quality' and 'most linear' mean when applied to a capacitor?

[3below]

[size=4][quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1365971043' post='2046803'][/size]

Thanks for the explanation, but I knew all that.

What I asked was, what does "[i]polyester and paper in oil are the best quality and most linear caps,[/i]" actually mean?

Specifically, what does 'quality' and 'most linear' mean when applied to a capacitor?
[/quote]

Excellent points above, we most certainly want clarification, particularly with signals in the 20 - 20 KHz range at voltages around 0.5V to 18V as these are audio related and encompass passive and active basses.

wikipedia [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor[/url] is pretty informative, which quality and linearity are we discussing?[size=4] [/size]

[iiipopes]

[size=3][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Sorry, I misunderstood the question![/color]

[color=#000000]"Quality" in this context means the same as in any other quality control context: unit-to-unit consistency. In other words, when you purchase a .047, are you getting a .047, or actually just a, say, .40 or as much as a .60? Since the treble roll-off needs to be at least a half-octave difference to be audible, even these extremes are acceptable. I even use a .033 as my tone capacitor because I like more mids in the mix.[/color]

[color=#000000]Likewise, "Linearity" means consistency of performance throughout the audible range and throughout its voltage and temperature rated range. For audio reproduction applications, these have more meaning with the entire audio range at issue than it does for bass guitar applications, where the most it will see in a frequency range is only @ 30 Hz (low or 40 Hz (low E) to @ 7500 Hz (highest overtones usually produced), and a few millivolts, maybe as much as one volt for hot actives. And since there are no components to cause heat in an electric bass, then temperature is not a concern, either, as it used to be with large filter capacitors next to large, hot power tubes and transformers.[/color]

[color=#000000]In other words, it really doesn't matter. [/color][/font][/size]

Edited April 15, 2013 by iiipopes

[Ou7shined]

When I wanted to explore caps and their value vs tone, rather than Google the theory or rely on hearsay I took these bad boys...



... then mocked up this....




[size=5][b]The result was astonishing![/b][/size].... well actually it wasn't.
Forgetting all the hyperbole and guff, when you think about it, a cap's job is simply to define a shelf at which the high frequencies are sent to earth. Changing the value simply selected different shelf points at which the highs were dumped. Wired directly to the jack it was like a rubbish tone control. Yes it functioned fundamentally different from a standard tone control but what you hear switching through the variations is pretty much the same only staggered. What's more when faded in and out with an actual tone control (not seen in this ^ early mock up) I now had countless variations on each individual setting and multiple ways of achieving the exact same tone. Eureka!

Of course you guys don't have to take my word on it. If you wanna believe that a cap can "give mids" or "add warmth" (and that old school caps are the dogs while old school pots are pants) or whatever then don't let me spoil a good read.

[iiipopes]

Indeed! Great experiment! Years ago, I didn't do that extensive a matrix, but that is essentially how I came up with my personal preference for a .033: the value sets the "hinge" frequency, and if wired to a potentiometer, the pot sets how sharp the slope is. Great pix of a great project.

[AngelLaHash]

473J = 0.047uF (0.047x10^-6) the other ways to show it is 47nF (47x10^-9)
J means 5% of 47nF (2n35F) ever way Min 44n65F - 49n35F Max

XY5 = XuYF, XY4 = XY0nF, XY3 = XYnF, XY2 = XnYF, XY1 = XY0pF

Also worth remembering In parallel the Value is SUMMED together
and in Series its C = 1/((1/X)+(1/Y)) ... with XY being the Two Caps
So if you are missing some you can get them other ways around

[flyfisher]

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1366039763' post='2047599']
[size=3][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Sorry, I misunderstood the question![/color]

[color=#000000]"Quality" in this context means the same as in any other quality control context: unit-to-unit consistency. In other words, when you purchase a .047, are you getting a .047, or actually just a, say, .40 or as much as a .60? Since the treble roll-off needs to be at least a half-octave difference to be audible, even these extremes are acceptable. I even use a .033 as my tone capacitor because I like more mids in the mix.[/color]

[color=#000000]Likewise, "Linearity" means consistency of performance throughout the audible range and throughout its voltage and temperature rated range. For audio reproduction applications, these have more meaning with the entire audio range at issue than it does for bass guitar applications, where the most it will see in a frequency range is only @ 30 Hz (low or 40 Hz (low E) to @ 7500 Hz (highest overtones usually produced), and a few millivolts, maybe as much as one volt for hot actives. And since there are no components to cause heat in an electric bass, then temperature is not a concern, either, as it used to be with large filter capacitors next to large, hot power tubes and transformers.[/color]

[b][color=#000000]In other words, it really doesn't matter. [/color][/b][/font][/size]
[/quote]

Indeed.

The concept of capacitor linearity being important in a passive bass application makes me smile, especially when considering paper-in-oil capacitors that are typically used in high voltage, high power applications.

Ou7shined's test example is probably the only way to really decide about these things but, as pointed out, the circuit is only a single pole low pass filter and the scope for tone shaping is pretty much limited to selecting the low-pass frequency (or 'shelf' point). The actual roll off characteristics of such a simple filter cannot be significantly affected by changing capacitor types or values.

[3below]

Ou7shined's build is a great thing. It is something I have thought about (a la Gibson Varitone) but never implemented. The results save me (and others) the effort of replicating it, so a big thanks. Next question would be what is 'optimum value' or is it the iiipopes 0.033 value (somewhere in the middle of most basses).

Edited April 15, 2013 by 3below

[flyfisher]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1366064491' post='2048050']
Next question would be what is 'optimum value' or is it the iiipopes 0.033 value (somewhere in the middle of most basses).
[/quote]

'Optimum' capacitor value is going to depend on personal preference. An easy way to experiment is to use a substitution box (which is pretty much what Ou7shined built) and have a play until it all sounds good to your own ears. Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-K38-Capacitor-Substitution-Box/dp/B0002BBQMI

[iiipopes]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1366065361' post='2048066']
'Optimum' capacitor value is going to depend on personal preference. An easy way to experiment is to use a substitution box (which is pretty much what Ou7shined built) and have a play until it all sounds good to your own ears. Something like this: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-K38-Capacitor-Substitution-Box/dp/B0002BBQMI"]http://www.amazon.co...x/dp/B0002BBQMI[/url]
[/quote]
Indeed. A person preferring a dub tone may want a .047, or even a .068 or .100. Someone who really likes the pop-and-slap may want to go the other way with a .022, the "standard" for most electric guitars. For me, I've never personally cared for the completely rolled off dub tone; I like a little more mids in the mix, but not so much that it sounds like an electric guitar instead of a bass, even on the bridge pickup position.

That looks like a great box, but is it worth it, when most folks have just a couple of instruments?

The other application that some folks may find interesting would be to figure out what in-line value is good for a bridge pickup to eliminate inductance loading and promote "jangle" or "chime". Rickenbacker have used a .0047 for decades; I use a .01 for a Jazz Bass bridge pickup; Leo Fender used a .0068 for the bridge pickup of a Jaguar, etc.