Markbass SA450 V's TC Electronic RH450

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1364925393' post='2032798']
Not aiming this comment at anyone in particular, but with quad parametric EQ controls, you really do need a good ear and a bit of patience to get the best from it. There is a lot of potential to ruin your tone with poor EQing, and compression, and tubetone.
I suspect that a few of those who have not got on with the RH simply don't have the ears and almost resent the potential complexity of the EQ.
Also, I am equally sure that some folks who have not got on with them simply don't find the sound they are looking for due to the fact that they are looking for a different style of amp.

What is fact, is that the RH has an incredibly versatile EQ section. Personally, I have found it very musical and with a bit of fiddling I have been able to sculpt the midrange exactly to my tastes (and the midrange is where most of the differences in "tone" are IMO.
[/quote]

To be fair, I gigged mine extensively for a year, and spent hours experimenting with the EQ. My issues were more dynamic than tonal.

[molan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1364657524' post='2029316']
The RH450 was not my friend.

I'd rather play giant elastic bands than use that amp again.
[/quote]

Yep that was me too.

Sounded OK at home and was quite singularly the worst live sound I've ever had

I thought it might have been the artificial cut on the high end and picked up a Staccato to see if it helped but couldn't live with that either.

Edit - I should add that I spent a lot of time setting up each of the three channels for the tone I wanted. I also checked all the 'guide' settings from the long Talkbass thread and used some of these as a base.

I really thought I had everything set up perfectly and then bang (or to be precise, complete lack of bang!) - complete tone suck in a live situation. I was so disappointed, possibly more so than with any other amp I've ever owned

Edited April 2, 2013 by molan

[MartyBRebelMC]

Not sure how much help i can be but, I've had a MarkBass rig with MarkBass cabs (121p with 121NY cab), MarkBass head (SD1200) with Barefaced cabs (midget and compact) and now RH750 with Berg AE212. If you want my opinions on any of those combinations I'm happy to oblige but to be honest it's all subjective and dependent on ones own playing style, bass, type of music etc. as to what suits best.

Based on what you've said though, I wonder whether you should look at a different cab before you change your amp. You mention Berg or Barefaced cabs, and either of these should be a significant upgrade over your current Ashdown cab and may better suit the amp you already have.

[hamfist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1364925842' post='2032809']
To be fair, I gigged mine extensively for a year, and spent hours experimenting with the EQ. My issues were more dynamic than tonal.
[/quote]

To be fair (in return), you would then fit exactly into this group of people I described who simply don't like the amp ....

See above .......... "Also, I am equally sure that some folks who have not got on with them simply don't find the sound they are looking for due to the fact that they are looking for a different style of amp."

My point was that for quite a few of those that don't get on with it, it will be because of the complex EQ and the fact that they haven't the "ears" or skill to get the best out of it. I suspect that you, WotT, definitely do have the ears and skill to get what you want, it's just that the RH didn't get you where you wanted to go. Fair enough.

I am amazed, Molan, by your description of an "artificial cut in the high end". Through my Baer cabs the RH is bright. Like any amp/cab combination though. Some simply are destined to fail through incompatibility.

I'll repeat that I do think that a lot of the character of any amp, and yes maybe particularly the RH amps, is in the midrange. If you are playing it with cabs which have a big hole in the midrange (as many bass cabs do) then it may not be a great combination. The nuance in midrange of the RH's, which shines with the midrange drivers of the Baer cabs, is beautiful IMO.

Before I sound like a complete RH fanboy, I will add that I have not had the chance to play the RH really loud yet, and I do have some concerns. It is certainly excellent for very quiet gigs and medium volume band rehearsals in a small room. But, even so, in those situations I have the master almost halfway (with one 8 ohm 12" cab, albeit a very high quality and sensitive one). This is with optimal gain levels and minimal compression. I do have concerns that it will not have enough volume for a loud gig with two of these cabs. I hope to get the chance to try the RH pre-amp through my Ashdown SPyder 550 power amp today, which I may decide to use for larger events. In hindsight, I may wish I'd bought the RH750 as the 450 power amp may simply not have the grunt and volume I will need (having no FoH bass support for the majority of my gigs)

The Ashdown Spyder 550 sounds volume-wise to be in a different league to the RH450. It has a lorryload more grunt and volume available on tap.
I am still loving the RH's pre-amp though.

[wateroftyne]

Hi Hamfist

I did read that part of your post. I should have said 'to be clear..'. Apologies.

The RH450 does have a hard-wired lo-pass filter (5kHz, I think?) which to all intents and purposes is an artificial cut in the high end. The RH750 addresses this with the tweetertone control. I used mine with Berg HS210s which have very detailed mids. and for a spell with a Barefaced Compact. Tonally blah, and seriously lacking authority.

It's a Marmite head, I think.

[hamfist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1364973713' post='2033382']
The RH450 does have a hard-wired lo-pass filter (5kHz, I think?)
[/quote]

I'm surprised to hear that. It's not what my ears are telling me. The stated parametric range of the treble control is claimed to go up to 6.3KHz, which would be very odd if there were a 5KHz low pass filter. I'd be interested to read about this if you knew of a link ?
Although the whole fact that I own cabs without tweeters tells you that I am not a fan of bright, clear high end anyway.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1364982064' post='2033509']
I'm surprised to hear that. It's not what my ears are telling me. The stated parametric range of the treble control is claimed to go up to 6.3KHz, which would be very odd if there were a 5KHz low pass filter. I'd be interested to read about this if you knew of a link ?
Although the whole fact that I own cabs without tweeters tells you that I am not a fan of bright, clear high end anyway.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/tc-electronic-rh450-fixed-lowpass-filter-899716/"]Here you go...[/url]

I don't like clear highs either, so it didn't really affect me.

[hamfist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1364982879' post='2033524']
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/tc-electronic-rh450-fixed-lowpass-filter-899716/"]Here you go...[/url]

I don't like clear highs either, so it didn't really affect me.
[/quote]

THanks. Very interesting article. I guess that's the origin of all the power output/power management hoo ha also.

THe term Low Pass FIlter is actually a poor description however of what is going on though. THe analysis shows a gentle roll off above 4K, with a completely flat response still available up to 8K with a bit of knob twiddling. There's no low pass filtering going on though, in the correct sense of the term.

Edited April 3, 2013 by hamfist

[ern500evo]

I was looking forward to my first rehearsal with my new RH450 tonight, until I read this thread!!

[hamfist]

[quote name='ern500evo' timestamp='1364998773' post='2033878']
I was looking forward to my first rehearsal with my new RH450 tonight, until I read this thread!!
[/quote]

The key will be to use your ears, listening to what you hear, and not your eyes, reading what others have to say about it.
That way, you'll be fine !!

Report back !

[Musicman20]

[quote name='ern500evo' timestamp='1364998773' post='2033878']
I was looking forward to my first rehearsal with my new RH450 tonight, until I read this thread!!
[/quote]

Well, after the wattage review, I did have a bit of 'what the...' thoughts about the amp. I then forgot about it, and realised that before these reviews, EVERYONE said the RH450 appeared to have more horsepower than the Markbass LM3/F500 and other higher rated amps, (Genz Shuttle 6.0).

Don't get hung up on forum opinions, as these amps were a big hit, and still get great reviews. I still enjoy my RH750; nothing like it on the market. It is like a smaller, more reliable, and well featured Ampeg amp, IMO.

[ern500evo]

I must say I've been impressed with how easily I've got a sound I like while just fooling around with it through my Warwick 4x10 at home. Everything pretty much flat, little bit of tubetone, with just a little bit of treble boost on my Warwick and it sounds great, really balanced. Obviously the proof will be how it sits in the band mix tonight but I'm sure it'll be fine! My 8x10, 1x15 and 2x10 are all at our rehearsal space at the moment so I might chuck the 4x10 in the car and have a little play about with various cab set ups while I'm there too.

[leroydiamond]

In an A/B test conducted by me The RH450 had alot going for it, but failed in the horsepower department when compared to the little mark11/f500

[ern500evo]

My last 3 heads have been a Trace AH350SM, Ashdown ABM500 Evo and a Warwick Tubepath 5.1, I've never had to work any of them particularly hard, even when running at 8ohm into a single cab alongside a loud drummer. So I'm hoping that unless the RH is drastically under powered its not going to prove too much of an issue.

[ern500evo]

Well last night wasn't quite as productive as I'd hoped! I ended up running a bit late so didn't take the 4x10 with me, thinking I had my 1x15, 2x10 and 8x10 there to choose from. Get there and the 8x10 is in a different room with the castors removed (it got damaged by someone there, so they are looking at repairing it for me), then realised I only have one speakon-speakon cable with me, i had a speakon-jack cable too but the Warwick cabs don't have jack inputs. Decide that 2x10 probably not gonna be enough with 2 guitars and a psychotic drummer so plump for the 1x15, which isn't ideal as I've never used that cab on its own so have nothing to compare to. Anyway, start with everything flat, bit of top end boost, and treble slightly boosted on my bass and have to say it was pretty good for an "off the shelf" setting. Finding sonic space with our 2 guitarists isn't always easy, one uses a slightly overdriven mid heavy tone while the other uses a more scooped dirtier tone, but the RH sat well in the mix. Needed a fair amount of top end boost on my bass for some tracks but given that my Tubepath head had bucket loads of top end available i knew i'd be needing a bit more eq to get the desired "sizzle" for some tracks but on the whole I'm happy. Obviously the more I time I spend with it in a live environment then the more familiar I'm gonna be with making necessary changes but on the whole I'm glad I went for it and bought the RH450. I think more worrying is the fact I've been sat here for the last 45 minutes on the Barefaced website staring at an S15, and I've just happened to sell an old car I had knocking about fr £1500!!