Mark Bass sound - advice please

[basstheface]

Hi

Six months ago I bought a Little Mark III and two Mark Bass 2x10 traveller cabinets, having done lots of research, spoken to other bass players and tried the kit out (albeit in a shop). I generally use a Musicman Sterling bass with roundwound strings and play rock and blues. Venues tend to be clubs and pubs. My problem is getting clarity and punch.

As you'd expect, I have experimented with different tone settings and I have recently started to use a MXR M87 compressor which has helped to tighten the sound a bit.

Has anyone else found this with Mark Bass gear? Could it be the rear porting on the cabs?

I have been playing for many years and have used Ampeg and Trace Elliott with 10" speakers in the past and have done hundreds of gigs so am reasonably experienced. I love the weight advantage of Mark Bass gear but am struggling to find a sound I'm comfortable with.

I want to perservere and crack this, so tips, advice and wisdom are welcomed please!

Cheers

Steve

[PTB]

I have not experienced this with my MarkBass & Music Man gear. I much prefer it to TE & Ampegs sound wise. How are you setting the amp eq & filters?

[basstheface]

Hi PTB and thanks for responding. I've tried all sorts but my last settings from a pub gig on Saturday was this (I've based it on clock settings):

Gain - 11 o'clock (no clipping)
Master - 10 o'clock
Low - 10 o'clock
Mid low - 12 o'clock
Mid high - 2 o'clock
High - 11 o'clock
VLE - 9 o'clock
VPF - 3 o'clock

Controls on the bass are high, mid and low set to half way and volume on full. I tend to tweak the tone controls up or down slightly during the set.

I generally switch the horns off on the cabs or keep them very low because I find them too toppy otherwise.

Cheers

Steve

[gafbass02]

The VPF at 3 o clock is sucking a huge amount of mid. Try Rolling it back to 8 or 9, turn the vle off, (fully left) and put the bass at flat and the low mid around 2 o clock with the hi mid flat to 1 o'clock ish. Then up the gain to 1 o clock if you can. Are you using a compressor?

[lonestar]

Whenever I try using the filters i usually end up zeroing them and setting all the tone controls back at twelve oclock, sometimes boosting the mid low to cut through the mix, depending on the room and adding a bit of low with my jazz bass.

[xgsjx]

Try turning the VPF & VLE right down (off) & take things from there. I have my VLE at @ 10 o'clock & the VPF off (@ 7 o'clock).
The VPF doesn't work very well for my sound in a live situation. I tend to put the EQ controls flat too & adjust to suit the band.

[discreet]

As gafbass02 said, if you've got the VPF at 3 o'clock, that's a hell of a mid-scoop which will make your bass practically inaudible in a band situation, let alone sound clear and punchy.

The tone that sounds 'right' at a gig (for example) will sound very naff indeed when you hear it solo. It's all about juxtaposition!

*Edit - I meant 3 o'clock, not 9 o'clock for VPF, duh!

Edited April 1, 2013 by discreet

[Lozz196]

Yep, I started off with my Markbass gear with all eqs at midday, and the VPF on full, gain set to just clipping. Sounded great, plenty of power, but not so much note definition. I now have bass & treble at 2 o`clock, high-mid at midday, low-mid at 8 o`clock. Tweeters on, gain again set to just clipping. On it`s own it`s no way as pleasing to the ear, but placed in the mix - both live and recorded - it comes into it`s own. Still scooped, but with a Precision, which has enough low-mids anyway, it punches - make that thunders - through. I`d up the low-mids if using my Jazz, and drop the treble.

The other thing also is, how near you are to your speakers when hearing all this? On-stage or close by will be radically different to about 20 feet out front. Get a scratchy, middy, nasally sound on stage and think yuck. Go out front, and that will more than likely translate into an amazing full-bodied, clear and punchy sound.

[lonestar]

This is all really interesting.
I agree about the ideal live mix sound and solo often being very different; scooped mids a good example.
I find the low mid boost really helpful when di'id through the pa and Im stuck behind the sub woofer.

[PTB]

I thought your VPF might be set high. It can sound good by itself like that but as the others have said, it doesn't work in a band situation. Let us know if the advice above doesn't fix it.

[xgsjx]

From the manual it say's that the VPF is suited to slap playing. I turn it up a touch at home when on my own as it adds a little extra low & scoops the mids, but it's back to nixy when I have company.

[ezbass]

I've used a number of MM, and MM type p/up equipped, basses through a Mark Bass/Schroeder combination for some time. All the EQ has been set at 12 o'clock with the VPF & VLE at 9 o'clock. A little bass and treble boost from the guitar and I had a good all round tone that was audible on stage and sat in the mix nicely. With the VPF that high you're robbing all those delicious mids from your sound (as has been mentioned above).

[lonestar]

I also set the gain to about two/three oclock. Based on the manual advice to turn the master to 0 and set he gain until blue light shows clipping and back off a little. Turn master volume to required level.

[IanA]

Turn the vpf and vle off, set eq to 12 o clock, set bass to flat, play for 20 mins then make small adjustments to suit when you are used to what you are hearing. if no better keep the head, sell the cabs, buy some Bergs!

[martin8708]

[quote name='Iana' timestamp='1364849514' post='2031803']
Turn the vpf and vle off, set eq to 12 o clock, set bass to flat, play for 20 mins then make small adjustments to suit when you are used to what you are hearing. if no better keep the head, sell the cabs, buy some Bergs!
[/quote]

Yup, as above , except I boost the low /mids a smidgen and bought a Vanderkley cab .
I have tried about 5 ( poss 6 ) Markbass cabs , great if your in a Jazz or Acoustic type band , but if your in competition with rock guitarists , keep the head ( or poss try the Tube heads for stronger mids ) .
Some people like the VPF and VLE filters , but they can suck the life out of your amp.

I having been using Markbass for years , so I am a convert to the brand , but Mark at Bassdirect opened my eyes and ears .

Added note: trying gear out in shops is all very well , those Markbass cabs tend to sound fantastic when played on their own , but it is never the same in a band situation when everyone else is robbing you of your sound .

Edited April 1, 2013 by martin8708

[IanA]

[quote name='martin8708' timestamp='1364851392' post='2031845']


Yup, as above , except I boost the low /mids a smidgen and bought a Vanderkley cab .
I have tried about 5 ( poss 6 ) Markbass cabs , great if your in a Jazz or Acoustic type band , but if your in competition with rock guitarists , keep the head ( or poss try the Tube heads for stronger mids ) .
Some people like the VPF and VLE filters , but they can suck the life out of your amp.

I having been using Markbass for years , so I am a convert to the brand , but Mark at Bassdirect opened my eyes and ears .

Added note: trying gear out in shops is all very well , those Markbass cabs tend to sound fantastic when played on their own , but it is never the same in a band situation when everyone else is robbing you of your sound .
[/quote]
Vanderkley cabs great as well, a bit flatter response and brighter but equally good!
When I played a Berg compared to my old Markbass cab it was night and day.

[deepbass5]

Will depend on cabs used, and bass. but with two EA M-lines and a shuker 5 with east delux pre my LMK is set usually set for finger style = ch 1

Gain= 11 Bass = 1 low m =10 high m =12 high =12 VPF =9 VLE = off master = 9<11 the other channel 2 for funkier pop is. Bass = 12 and VPF= 12<1 all others are as ch1 , other adjustments are made on bass

all settings are O'clock, the East delux pre has a passive treble roll off which is great for jazz, motown, so dont use the VPF on the amp

[SkinnyMike]

I've never owned a Little Mark III as such, but I have used Mark bass extensively for 4-5 years. Don't bother with the filters, they sound great when practicing on your own but I always found just like a few posters have said earlier they suck out mid's BIG time. The trick with these bad boys are to dial in a bit more mid's using the low and high mid controls and kept everything else pretty flat (whilst taking into account the room and it's response to your bass cab) that way you will keep a lot of you natural bass tone with a bit of extra to punch through the mix.

Basically just use your ears during sound check and have a play with the bass and mid control (Whilst the full band is playing). You should start being able to hear it ping out a bit better depending on the balance you get between the low and high mid controls.

Edited April 2, 2013 by SkinnyMike

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='basstheface' timestamp='1364844213' post='2031652']
I've tried all sorts but my last settings from a pub gig on Saturday was this (I've based it on clock settings):
[/quote]

I had the best sound I ever had on Saturday night and used the following:

Gain - 12 o'clock
Master - 11 o'clock
Low - 10 o'clock
Mid low - 12 o'clock
Mid high - 10 o'clock
High - 12 o'clock
VLE - 9 o'clock
VPF - 9 o'clock

I also had the tweeter on half way.

SO much clarity! I was loud and clear without muddying up the mix and the entire band sounded better. You might not need to turn the High Mids down as much since I use an F1 which is more pronounced in that area.

[Prime_BASS]

Consensus seems to be that you need to get those filters turned down.!

Don't get me wrong, they ate usefull but once they start getting towards 10/12 o clock they get a bit ott for live work.

How are you stacking the 2x10s too.?
Is advise against the horizontal path and stack them end on end vertically so its as tall as a 8x10, it'll sound like you lots of bottom but with the detail and punch of a smaller cab.

I didn't get on with the rear porting, but live it never seemed to bother me.

Remember what sounds good on your own may sound like pants in a mix.

[51m0n]

Yup VLE and VPF off for me too.

I have more mid control with my sa450 than on an LMII (which is precisely why I bought it), I boost a little low end (which is a stupidly low 40Hz on MB amps), and add a little very low mid (about 120Hz I think), cut a little mid top (about 1KHz I think), and leave the highs where they are.

Thats into a Bergantino ae410 (Tweeter on at the normal halfway point) which is a cab that punches like a boxer on PCP and is forward in the upper mids. I get a huge tone that way, loads of bite and growl and clarity, and just enough low end to fill a mix out in the room.

I transition from slapping and fingerstyle all the way through gigs, all the time, I have no time or wish to be mucking around with settings or pedals whilst doing this, its far more about what feels right at the time. I use a heavy neck pickup bias on the Roscoe, its a quite P bass like sound, but at the same time clearly isnt a P. Hard to describe, but its a good big sound anyway, and with these settings whatever technique I'm using it sounds 'right', to me anyway, and the rest of the band love it too. It always sounds like bass, and could certainly be described as an old school kind of tone rather than anything remotely hifi.

I should add that I run a Focusrite Compounder which allows me to add some low end in to the signal around the compressor so that it isnt clamping down too hard just on the low energy. So that gives a bit more oomph too, and also helps to just keep the fx I use all sounding the same level wise. I dotn thik its really necessary to run a compressor, but I like what it does to my tone...


The VPF is a cut in the mids, the more you turn it up the more dB it pulls out. Anything above 9 O'clock and you will disappear from the mix completely. Leave it off in a band mix, it will work better that way.

The VPF is a low pass filter and the more you turn it up the more you roll the frequency down, so off its set at 20KHz, and all the way on its not letting much of anything out above 250Hz. It was designed to make up for the lack of a tweeter control on early MB combos. Again just try leaving it off, its a very unusual control with a very specific intended usage, and I personally think the hi and upper mid controls will give you what you want in a way you would expect better than this particular filter does. Just my opinion, but I've gigged this amp for 4 or 5 years to get that opinion....

[xgsjx]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1364898767' post='2032252']
The VPF is a cut in the mids, the more you turn it up the more dB it pulls out. Anything above 9 O'clock and you will disappear from the mix completely. Leave it off in a band mix, it will work better that way.

The [b]VLE[/b] is a low pass filter and the more you turn it up the more you roll the frequency down, so off its set at 20KHz, and all the way on its not letting much of anything out above 250Hz. It was designed to make up for the lack of a tweeter control on early MB combos. Again just try leaving it off, its a very unusual control with a very specific intended usage, and I personally think the hi and upper mid controls will give you what you want in a way you would expect better than this particular filter does. Just my opinion, but I've gigged this amp for 4 or 5 years to get that opinion....
[/quote]

Fixed it for ya.

[JTUK]

[size=5][sup]Low mids can kill your sound as much as save it... in that you might have a sound coming through everyones else, but what sort of sound..?[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]Should you accept a punch through the hole approach... and the loss of any real interesting bass definition, potentially. or should you set the whole band up[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]so you can get your sound to work?[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]To my ears Markbass is punchy and efficient, but too many players use the mid punch approach and the bass is just plain dull and uninspiring.[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]I don't blame Markbass so much as the people using it. and the way they choke off all character.[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]I really don't get why you want to accept something that works in a mix...but doesn't if solo'd.. [/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]A wall of sound and volumes wars are never a good mix.[/sup][/size]

[51m0n]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1364899551' post='2032259']
Fixed it for ya.
[/quote]

Doh, ta!

Edited April 2, 2013 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1364900155' post='2032269']
[size=5][sup]Low mids can kill your sound as much as save it... in that you might have a sound coming through everyones else, but what sort of sound..?[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]Should you accept a punch through the hole approach... and the loss of any real interesting bass definition, potentially. or should you set the whole band up[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]so you can get your sound to work?[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]To my ears Markbass is punchy and efficient, but too many players use the mid punch approach and the bass is just plain dull and uninspiring.[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]I don't blame Markbass so much as the people using it. and the way they choke off all character.[/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]I really don't get why you want to accept something that works in a mix...but doesn't if solo'd.. [/sup][/size]
[size=5][sup]A wall of sound and volumes wars are never a good mix.[/sup][/size]
[/quote]

Err you can try and set the whole bands sound up around yours, and to some degree you certainly should. But that wont necessarily make the best mix, or indeed make the bass easy to hear on stage, or in the audience.

Mids are not mud, unless there is too much mid, the OPs setting would more than hint that he had removed, not only all the mid, but all the top as well, just leaving sludge: thats what those two filters set like that will do, every time, to any bass sound, because thats how they work.

Mixing is not about shaping everything around one thing, rather it is shaping everything around everything else, if you can pick and choose the right parts of each sound and have the tools to do it no one will hear the missing bits, and this all comes down to human perception of sound.

We are very very bad at working out what is cut, compared to how well we can tell if something is boosted (too much boost too steep sounds very unnatural, whereas a steep cut we dont ven notice as missing).

Add to this the fact that Fletcher Munsen curves dictate absolutely that we hear pitch and other information better in the mid range at all volumes and you can see why having a hole in the mids (where mr guitar is making his smiley eq cut) for the bass to have a little bit of room (and a boost to match) to be heard, will make the entire bass sound more punchy, easier to hear and allow you to meld better with the guitar and indeed entire band sound without disappearing.

This isnt some new idea, ever since George Massenburg popularised the parametric EQ in the 70s every mix you have heard live or on record has had chunks cut out of one instrument to make another easier to hear (he used his parametric originally in the PA he built for Earth Wind and Fire tours where there was a tonne of competing instruments at various frequencies).

It is 'the right way to do it' and done right the cuts do not in some way destroy the timbre of any one instrument, but instead allow it to be heard. The brain does a really good job of filling in those gaps where there are cuts and another instrument takes the lead in that area of the spectrum.

This is before anyone even mentions acoustics and how variable they can be and how much they can damage the sound, and are often particularly tricky in upper mids, and deep bass. The former because as a venue fills the upper mids are effectively soaked up by the audience (bags of meat are great absorption) and the latter because of structural shapes of venues and the difficulties of providing reasonable bass trapping to control reflections in the bass and all that energy crashing around the room in the sub 120Hz area. The nature of the buildings we tend to play in means there are often real issues in the control of these areas which will turn to mud any mix with a big dollop of really low bass.

I can't remember the last time I heard a band pull off proper sub bass from an instrument live without it actually damaging the mix (I include all efforts to make kick drums sound like cannons) in a building (outdoors can be different). It is ridiculously difficult to control in an untreated building at high volume.