Unlearn what i've learnt?

[Mark_Bass]

Ok ill hold my hands-up and admit it, im not that good a bass player.
Sure i can play in time and try not to step on the toes of the guitards when they're doing their "look at me, look at me" solos a my problem is that i know only couple of scales (basically the basic pentatonics) and thats about it, any fills and licks i employ seem to be more from muscle memory than from recognising the scales the song is based around.

Ironically that even though i seem to learn songs quickly either form ear or by being shown i really cant seem to retain music theory!
And i have to admit its kinda frustrating; i play with some very skilled guitarists; the kinda guys who know every mode from scales and spent their youth practising sweep arpeggios in their room whilst i was out meeting girls ;-) and whilst i seem to be able to "wing" it i feel like im cheating myself by not fully understanding more of the theory and building blocks of bass line construction etc.

So any advice or suggestions that people could offer in ways to employ new scales and theory to my playing would be greatly received.

[Coilte]

You have mentioned the word "scales" a couple of times, but not one mention of "chord tones". No one will argue about how important it is to know your scales, but equally important from a bassist's point of view are chord tones.

IMO, a good place to start is to learn how chords are derived from scales. For example the Cmaj scale consists of the notes CDEFGAB (1-7 ) Chord tones are made up by taking every other note of the scale (1357 etc). So taking the Cmaj scale, if we take 1,3 and 5 we get CEG which is the Cmaj chord. If we add the seventh note B we get CEGB which is Cmaj7.

Another way to look at it is by what is sometimes called "stacking thirds".

Lets take our Cmaj scale again. This time we put the scale at the bottom and build upwards, starting each line on the third note from the line below.
So :

BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB

Now, if we read the columns from left to right from the bottom up, we get all the chords in the Cmaj scale.

So, our first column is CEGB which is Cmaj7, the second column is DFAC which is Dm7.



The reason I am telling you this is to emphasise the importance of knowing about chord tones. This is the key to coming up with your own original bass lines. When you digest this, you could start on chord tone inversions.

A great web site that explains things very simply is "Study Bass". Here it talks about the importance of chord tones.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass...es-are-primary/[/url]


Another good way of getting to grips with chord tones and their inversions is to learn walking bass lines. Even if you dont like jazz, learning walking bass lines will help you to create your own lines.

Here is a series of lessons by Dave Marks which you should find helpful.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dave+marks+walking+bass+lesson+01&oq=dave+marks+walking+bass&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l3.3067.10791.0.13257.23.12.0.11.11.0.142.1044.11j1.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.42qldTWIiFA"]http://www.youtube.c...c.1.42qldTWIiFA[/url]

Edited April 2, 2013 by Coilte

[EssentialTension]

Get a piano, it's all laid out in front of you.

[Coilte]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1364924766' post='2032774']
Get a piano, it's all laid out in front of you.
[/quote]

Agreed.

OP, the information in my post will be clearer if you use a keyboard.

[Mark_Bass]

Thanks guys
theres some good insight there, im gonna have to sit down and digest all this and try and borrow a piano or keyboard - great idea btw.

Im starting to see where my confusion between chord tones and scales is coming from, especially as lot of the songs i'm being asked to learn are more riff-based than chord based - that being said im certainly going to take the time this lunchtime to read the links you've posted.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Mark_Bass

[FLoydElgar]

Don't put yourself down before you start. Just look at it as you have a desire for information and take your time in understanding! If you rush you either miss out important parts that underline your knowledge or you'll freeze and give up because " you're not learning fast enough"... i.e each and everyone has a different capacity for learning and speeds of learning some people are 2Gb RAM and others are 16Gb RAM... Doesn't mean that 2Gb person will not get it in the end just takes a bit longer, but worthwhile!! goodluck!

[lou24d53]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as the OP and I've been winging it off and on for around 20 years now!!

My theory knowledge was and still is extremely poor. Even though I have been able to hold my own in all the bands I've played in over the years, it's only in the last six months or so that I decided to get on board with a tutor in order to start building up my own theory knowledge.

"Unlearning what I've learnt" is exactly the phrase I have been using also and it's proving to be a complete bugger, and whilst I wouldn't say I'm much further along the road than I was six months ago, even already I can see things starting to fall into place.

[Coilte]

[quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1364978502' post='2033443']
Don't put yourself down before you start. Just look at it as you have a desire for information and take your time in understanding! If you rush you either miss out important parts that underline your knowledge or you'll freeze and give up because " you're not learning fast enough"... i.e each and everyone has a different capacity for learning and speeds of learning some people are 2Gb RAM and others are 16Gb RAM... Doesn't mean that 2Gb person will not get it in the end just takes a bit longer, but worthwhile!! goodluck!
[/quote]

Good post, and very important points. Quite often, people get frustrated because they feel they are not progressing fast enough. This can often lead to them giving up playing altogether, which is a shame. Learning is merely a process that no one ever reaches the end of. Learning from the internet can be great, but quite often it is hard for a beginner to know where to start, given the oceans of information available. Often they jump in mid way, only to find that they reach an impasse and have to back pedal to learn some basics.

What is required is a site where each lesson builds on the information gleaned form the previous ones. That is why I linked the "Study Bass" site. The lessons are in chronological order here.

[The Dark Lord]

I read all the stuff below and my only thought was ....... WTF ?

Respect to you indeed, but I play in a covers band that rocks the roof off of pubs and I have no idea about musical theory.



[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1364923904' post='2032746']
You have mentioned the word "scales" a couple of times, but not one mention of "chord tones". No one will argue about how important it is to know your scales, but equally important from a bassist's point of view are chord tones.

IMO, a good place to start is to learn how chords are derived from scales. For example the Cmaj scale consists of the notes CDEFGAB (1-7 ) Chord tones are made up by taking every other note of the scale (1357 etc). So taking the Cmaj scale, if we take 1,3 and 5 we get CEG which is the Cmaj chord. If we add the seventh note B we get CEGB which is Cmaj7.

Another way to look at it is by what is sometimes called "stacking thirds".

Lets take our Cmaj scale again. This time we put the scale at the bottom and build upwards, starting each line on the third note from the line below.
So :

BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB

Now, if we read the columns from left to right from the bottom up, we get all the chords in the Cmaj scale.

So, our first column is CEGB which is Cmaj7, the second column is DFAC which is Dm7.



The reason I am telling you this is to emphasise the importance of knowing about chord tones. This is the key to coming up with your own original bass lines. When you digest this, you could start on chord tone inversions.

A great web site that explains things very simply is "Study Bass". Here it talks about the importance of chord tones.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass...es-are-primary/[/url]


Another good way of getting to grips with chord tones and their inversions is to learn walking bass lines. Even if you dont like jazz, learning walking bass lines will help you to create your own lines.

Here is a series of lessons by Dave Marks which you should find helpful.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dave+marks+walking+bass+lesson+01&oq=dave+marks+walking+bass&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l3.3067.10791.0.13257.23.12.0.11.11.0.142.1044.11j1.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.42qldTWIiFA"]http://www.youtube.c...c.1.42qldTWIiFA[/url]
[/quote]

[Coilte]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1365063372' post='2034628']
I read all the stuff below and my only thought was ....... WTF ?

Respect to you indeed, but I play in a covers band that rocks the roof off of pubs and I have no idea about musical theory.
[/quote]

Lol !!....and long may you continue to rock. Yes, there are lots of people who get by without a knowledge of music theory. However, if you read the OP's post, he says that he has become frustrated because of his lack of music theory. He is not the first person I have come across to admit this. Lots of people I have come across on forums admit that not knowing some theory, limits their playing. They say that they find themselves playing the same old licks and lines all the time, and want to break out of the confines that they find themselves in. There is no doubt but that knowing some basic theory can only be an asset in progressing on an instrument.
What, if you later decide that you no longer want to play covers ?

It all depends on the type of music you want to play, and how far you wish to go with the instrument. For example, in an originals band, if the song writer says to you... "here is the chord sheet for "X" song",... would you know what to do ? How would you come up with your own original bass lines ? Or if you wanted to write your own songs, how would you convey to others what you want ?

As a session bassist, playing everything from Elvis to Coltrane and everything in between, I doubt if you would get far without some theory knowledge.

So, yes, you will get by without it, but having a basic knowledge of theory can IMO only enhance your enjoyment and understanding of music, and following on from that, the playing of it.

[iconic]

[i]The Dark Lord, on 04 April 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:[/i]

[i]I read all the stuff below and my only thought was ....... WTF ?

Respect to you indeed, but I play in a covers band that rocks the roof off of pubs and I have no idea about musical theory.[/i]

...but some theory never made anyones playing worse for it I'm a crap player but a bit of theory has made my 'playing' more bareable to the wife.

...for me theory has helped me oodles as I'm all bar tone deaf and don't have a musical gene in me, my brain is wired for engineering, period, not fine arts, music and stuff...so the 'engineering of music' make things a LOT easier for me.

I do wish someone had told me to study chord tones rather than bloody scales, learning about chord tones has been like someone switching on a light, we play along with chords usually so knowledge of chords is essential. Scales are useful but chord tones are where it's at.

This scale method of teaching is fine for piano etc but the bass is not a piano and never will be

[The Dark Lord]

I do agree that to read and studying music theory is a good thing. Not dissing the poster in any way.

Just a bit of an eye-opener to me to see all that theory.

[Coilte]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1365080027' post='2034955']


Just a bit of an eye-opener to me to see all that theory.
[/quote]

While the task of learning some theory can seem a daunting one, if it is done in small "bite size" chunks and (like I was saying earlier) in a step by step way, building on what went before, you would be surprised at how much you can learn in a comparitively short time. Even a half an hour a day studying some theory would be sufficient to start with. Small ask for such big rewards. I am by no means an expert on theory. My knowledge of it is very basic. The above method is how I have gotten to where I am now, and how I intend to continue.

[iconic]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1365080027' post='2034955']
I do agree that to read and studying music theory is a good thing. Not dissing the poster in any way.

Just a bit of an eye-opener to me to see all that theory.
[/quote]

yup, never seen a chord list like that either, quite cool

[danthevan]

I'm along the same lines as the OP. Any fills, riffs etc are done by remembering shapes in my head!
I found that learning all the open chords on a guitar and a few bar (barr?? Barre?? whatever.....) chords helped me pick up what works and what doesn't. If you know what notes form a chord, then you should be able to play any of those notes when the guitarist is playing that chord........... i think!
Some interesting stuff posted though, so will look at that myself too and see if it tallys with my shapes and patterns i bumble along with!

[Coilte]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1365085135' post='2035074']
yup, never seen a chord list like that either, quite cool
[/quote]

The reason that I listed the diatonic chords in the "stacked thirds" way, was because when it was explained to me in this way, the light bulbs started to come on. If you do this with any scale (i,e. write them out as I did), then you have all the chords contained in that scale. This method also explains how some chords are minor and some major. The third of a chord determines this.

Quite often, people's knowledge of scales consists of playing from root to root all over the neck. Nothing wrong with this, but they never go on to learn the function of scales or how to go about using them.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Coilte

[Coilte]

[quote name='danthevan' timestamp='1365085672' post='2035094']
If you know what notes form a chord, then you should be able to play any of those notes when the guitarist is playing that chord........... i think!
[/quote]

Spot on ! but generally the bassist will play at least three notes from the chord. The main difference between a bassist and a guitarist playing a chord is that the guitarist will play all the notes at the same time, as in strumming, and 95% of the time the bassist will play the same chord one note at a time. When a chord is played this way, it is called an arpeggio.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Coilte

[danthevan]

Sweet, im doing something right then!
The beauty of working it out on guitar rather than piano is the fretboard (other than size obviously) is the same as your bass so you start learning shapes and patterns.
Oh, and i can't play guitar for toffee, although i *know* the chords and how to form them, moving around them is a whole lot different!

[Coilte]

[quote name='danthevan' timestamp='1365086960' post='2035130']
Oh, and i can't play guitar for toffee,
[/quote]

Neither can I....

The bass was always the instrument that I was drawn towards... not that I am any Victor Wooten on that either.

[Mark_Bass]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1365080027' post='2034955']
Not dissing the poster in any way. Just a bit of an eye-opener to me to see all that theory. [/quote]

Don't worry no offence was taken

Theres a tonne of folk who are happy to plod along and play the root and not be overly concerned with whats underpinning what they're learning. Nothing wrong with that, i think that for the most part bassists in general can get away with not understanding the relationship between chord tones and basslines etc if they're not writing songs or doing solos and i think thats the key issue; most guitards will, at someone point or another attempt to play a guitar solo or two and thats possibly at that point they stop and have to pick-up a book or consult a tutor.

Where as for the most part the average bass player who has no aspiration to be the next Victor or Jaco and isn't really into Jazz or other genres like that, can probably get away with a lesser knowledge or understanding of musical theory without it being so obvious.

For me it was when my guitarist called me out during a recording session to say that half way through my fill i changed modes...or something like that lol No harm done and to be fair untill we were in the studio no one noticed lol

I think its fair to say that a bit of knowledge can only be a good thing, i guess at the end of the day its how you apply the theory.

[fatback]

For learning theory the internet is a godsend. Different explanations for the same thing will click with different people. Something to do with styles of thinking, I guess.

Theory was a big problem when there were only books; if you got the 'wrong' book for you, that was a deterrent. Now you can google like mad, read 10 different (but quality) explanations for something, and I guarantee one will click with you. Over time, you put the bits of the jigsaw together.

Well worth every minute of your time.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1364921354' post='2032675']
any fills and licks i employ seem to be more from muscle memory than from recognising the scales the song is based around.
[/quote]

Rather than diving straight into new stuff I would suggest trying to analyse these habitual licks and patterns etc that you already play so that you understand why they work (and just as importantly why things you instinctively avoid, do not work). Take a single phrase and examine how every note relates to the current chord, and then how it relates to the key you are playing in.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1365078177' post='2034921']
I do wish someone had told me to study chord tones rather than bloody scales, learning about chord tones has been like someone switching on a light, we play along with chords usually so knowledge of chords is essential. Scales are useful but chord tones are where it's at.
[/quote]

+1
To this day I constantly battle against my infuriatingly ingrained knowledge of scale shapes which I poisoned myself with when "learning" to play guitar.

[quote]
This scale method of teaching is fine for piano etc but the bass is not a piano and never will be
[/quote]

The difference is that piano players follow a progressive program of learning: scales -> chord construction -> cadences etc that has been refined over hundreds of years whereas self taught bass and guitar players tend to just learn shapes by rote.

Edited April 20, 2013 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1364921354' post='2032675']
i really cant seem to retain music theory!
[/quote]

If you play a note that is the same as one in the current chord it will sound "resolved"
If you play a note that is not, it will sound "tense"
If you play a note that is not in either the the current chord or in the key of the song it will sound "very tense"
All music is essentially a series "phrases" where a phrase is zero or more tense notes ending in a resolved one.

Can you remember that ??

Edited April 20, 2013 by bassman7755

[Mark_Bass]

I think i can do that