Loud rehearsals... Why?

[Truckstop]

It takes a while for a group to work put it's natural volume dynamic.

After you've all played with each other a few more times and you start developing your sound and your feel as a group, the volume will naturally lower in order for the louder parts to have more power and the quieter parts to develop more tension.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it at all. At least not until 3 or 4 months down the road!

Truckstop

[xgsjx]

We're going to a different studio for the next rehearsal. It has 2 1x12 guitar combos on stands (a Marshall & a Line6), so should let the guitarist hear himself better.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1365164073' post='2036149']
That's my concern about using plugs. Is it going to make everything sound like it's in the next room? If it is, wouldn't I be as well just popping my earphones in (they're noise canceling)?
[/quote]

After a while your brain will compensate and it will start to sound reasonably normal. And to be honest I think people worry far too much about having a good stage sound - so long as you can tell what notes your playing and it sounds good out front then why worry ?. Also, my playing is much tighter since wearing plugs as your ear can function a lot better at lower volume, indeed it makes you realise how much you are effectively using high volume to mask minor errors.

Edited April 7, 2013 by bassman7755

[JTUK]

You need a good stage sound to react to what you are playing and the nuances you hear. It also makes you feel better about the gig and music and you can raise the bar in your playing.

I hear awful functional sounds from bands round here where level seems the only consideration...the bass and drums sound nowhere near a unit or decent combined useable section.
The playing is across the sound rather than in it or part of it.

To all intense and purposes they sound like they can't hear or are oblivious to each other.
Don't expect the audience to notice if the players can't... but really, sounds are absolutely fundemental ...
Keys are gtrs tend to get it more...and drummers and bass players are way behind, IME..

Talk to decent keyboard player and he will be anal about the piano sounds... and that is the way it should be, almost.
Dittio gtr players with their effects and valve simulations..
Bass players tend to just need to be felt and drummers just want o hit things

If people just put up a signal and expect someone else to fix it in the mix..then you are creating a lot of work repairing the damage potentially.
And in the days of 15 mins sound checks, you need to be as sorted as possible with GOOD core sounds if you want a chance of sounding good.

[lojo]

3 things are needed for a reasonable level rehearsal


1. Pa or voice and/or vocals to be good/strong

2. Quite sticks and dynamic drummer who doesn't just play full on

3. Guitarist who is not only concerned about his own sound


Simple

[Lozz196]

In both of my bands we play to the volume of the drummer, and when we gig we don`t turn up. It`s plenty loud enough, but not overly loud.

I`ve been in bands where it was ear-splitting, as, expectedly they were metal bands with incredibly loud drummers who "couldn`t" play quietly, and now I wouldn`t stay in a band if that`s how they wanted to rehearse.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Lozz196

[mcnach]

It really really really annoys me when it's too loud.

When is it too loud? When you cannot tell what everybody else is playing no matter what you do (among other things).
What's the point in rehearsing if you cannot really hear eachother well enough to tell when something is off? From my personal experience I suspect too high volumes are mostly 1) an ego thing and 2) an ego thing.
Some people play very loud in tiny rooms because that's the only place they get to play loud and they're frustrated playing quietly at home. I can understand that, but go climb a mountain and you can play there with a million watt rig if that pleases you.
The fact that you cannot hear things so well at very high volumes it's also used to mask when a band is not very good. If you play loud and are reasonably in time, playing loud can fool people into thinking they are better than they really are. It's a bit like the guitarist using insane amounts of distortion and feedback... the noise masks his clumsiness.
Sometimes people just turn up and up because their sound is not clear enough to them... and rather than EQing their sound better, they maintain a bad EQ but a lot louder. So ignorance is sometimes cause for being too loud.

I have quit bands in the past when the volume was an issue and it was not addressed to my satisfaction. I play because I love the music, if I can't hear what everybody else is playing what is the point? I have never ever heard a band that was too loud and also played well, there's usually an inverse correlation between how loud they play and how well they play. This is not gigs where they turn up the volume for the audience extremely loud, I'm talking about the volumes the musicians use.

Live, it's a bit different. I hate loud stages for the same reason, and it also makes the sound guy's job harder. I want to sound good out at the front, and not so loud that people can't stay in front for longer than a couple of songs at a time because the volume it's uncomfortable.
Live, sometimes you can barely hear yourself. It's a shame, but if you know the song (and you should!) you quickly adapt to suboptimal sound and tune in to the instruments you really want to hear. If stage sound is bad and people turn up to compensate, the sound remains bad but in addition it becomes mushy.
Ideally you'd want a good sound onstage because if it sounds good I enjoy it more and if I enjoy it more I play better, plus it allows you to interact with others better. If you are going to improvise anything or jam anything at all... you'd better be able to hear what the others are doing!

I use earplugs a lot, especially live as I am normally right by the drummer, my concern with volume is not so much hearing damage (as I can protect myself) but about the music itself. If it does not sound good, what is the point? I do like a bit of volume and feeling the bass as much as hearing it... but a lot of people go crazy with volume and it spoils everything.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mcnach

[itsmedunc]

[size=4]I have never met a guitarist who will turn down. They pretend to and think everybody is dumb enough to believe them . Even when they are that loud the vocals cannot be heard. Their solution is turn the vocals up. Sorry but the vocals wont go any higher as the PA is only 1.5k in a 16'x10' room. Oh well says the guitarist... Its what guitarists do! Their sound is never 'right' when the rest of the band can be heard! I'm so glad I only rehearse about 6 times a year...[/size]

[itsmedunc]

[b] Please don't get me started about drummers!!!![/b]

[wateroftyne]

My best pal, a guitarist who I gig with a lot, has one of those little Orange 1x12 combos. It sounds great at low volumes.

When it needs to be louder, he carries a nice mic, and puts it through the PA.

Sorted.

[Stan_da_man]

Fact of the matter is, you won't be playing a gig quietly unless you're one of those sh*tty bands which only does gigs at seated venues (). You need to have an idea of what it'll sound like at a gig - just buy some ear plugs.

[Jimryan]

Is it worth getting the drummer to use rods?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Jimryan' timestamp='1365333085' post='2038067']
Is it worth getting the drummer to use rods?
[/quote]

There are plenty of muffling systems for drums, too (although few really nice for cymbals, it should be said...). The real secret is still in the technique, and the realisation that 'dynamic' is needed; loud passages can only stand out if there are quieter parts. Whacking away all the time tires the ears very quickly, and become 'the norme'; once you're loud, you can't play louder. Playing reasonably allows for accents or harder-hitting passages to stand out (as they should...). The level then has to drop down to permit a later crescendo. Listening to how symphonic composers handle the dynamics of an orchestra may be instructive. ([i]OK; not likely to impress a hardened punk rocker, but one can try[/i]...)

[xgsjx]

The singer owns a sweetie shop & I was tempted to get a couple of candy floss sticks to give to the drummer.

I was talking to the drummer yesterday & he was saying that he couldn't hear the vocals at all, just drums, bass & guitar (mainly).

I'm looking forward to trying out this other room. It looks like they've actually thought about what's needed for rehearsal.

[Monckyman]

I'm feeling a bit smug about this topic as our new and very experienced drummer uses an electronic kit.
I'm not convinced about the cymbal samples but the rest of it sounds excellent.
We can tune and select kits that suit the song, which adds a lot to your tonal palette.
We also rehearse set up exactly as we would at a gig, so we can focus lights and perfect monitor mixes and this is paying rich dividends now as what we get at gigs is exactly what we are prepared for.
Even to the extent that our cable runs and guitar stands are all carefully considered.
Sounds anal, but it bloody works.
As to guitarists playing too loudly, last night at the gig ours said it was the first time he was louder in the monitor wedge than in his combo and he loved it as he always hated being too loud, but felt he had to be to achieve that stage presence he thought essential.
As a bonus, all our amps are working less and there is loads of headroom in the system as a whole which for me equates to quality.
For those who have to play with a loud drummer or guitarist who wont listen when you ask them to be reasonable,sack them and get someone with a brain as well as a van.
Harsh, but they're your ears and livelihood.

[BottomE]

Too much volume always seems to be a way of compensating for other more nuanced stuff that should be going on in music. Even rock I can't think of any useful reason for playing too loud, especially in a rehearsal space.

[dougal]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1365173870' post='2036361']
ACS moulded plugs are top class. I have been using them for several years. They are the best and my ears deserve the best. Hearing loss should not be taken lightly and tinnitus can be really debilitating.
[/quote]

+1

Never go anywhere without them.

Lost one at an Anthrax gig, was in the ear guy's lab the next morning getting re-fitted.

They are expensive, but worth it.

Our drummer has quite a nice electronic kit, but doesn't ever want to use it. Cymbals don't sound right, snare doesn't sound right... even to me.

Edited April 7, 2013 by dougal

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365328195' post='2037990']
You need a good stage sound to react to what you are playing and the nuances you hear. It also makes you feel better about the gig and music and you can raise the bar in your playing.
[/quote]

I don't accept that as being true. Get someone else to play a few bars on your stage rig at a couple sound checks, dial in some settings that sound good to you [b]out front [/b](or just trust the judgement of a bass playing mate)stick to those settings from then on with minor tweaks and play with confidence that the audience is getting a good sound[b], [/b]thus freeing you from the psychological comfort blanket of needing your precious "tone" on stage.

Edited April 7, 2013 by bassman7755

[bremen]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1365332284' post='2038056']
My best pal, a guitarist who I gig with a lot, has one of those little Orange 1x12 combos. It sounds great at low volumes.

When it needs to be louder, he carries a nice mic, and puts it through the PA.

Sorted.
[/quote]

You. Lucky. Bastard.

Also, +1000 for McNach's post.

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1365332284' post='2038056']My best pal, a guitarist who I gig with a lot, has one of those little Orange 1x12 combos. It sounds great at low volumes.[/quote][quote name='bremen' timestamp='1365351479' post='2038375']You. Lucky. Bastard.[/quote]

Our guitarist rocks a Marshall DSL40C 1X12 valve combo, live and for rehearsal. It's 40W, [i]but - [/i]it can be run at 20W - it's still well loud enough, but sounds great. Why some guitarists still feel the need to use a 100W half-stack is beyond me!

Over course, bass players need bigger rigs as low frequency sounds need more power to be heard... or something. [/size]

Edited April 7, 2013 by discreet

[bremen]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

[xgsjx]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1365352145' post='2038383']
[size=4]
Our guitarist rocks a Marshall DSL40C 1X12 valve combo, live and for rehearsal. It's 40W, [i]but - [/i]it can be run at 20W - it's still well loud enough, but sounds great. Why some guitarists still feel the need to use a 100W half-stack is beyond me!

Over course, bass players need bigger rigs as low frequency sounds need more power to be heard... or something. [/size]
[/quote]

In my last rock band the guitarist had a Vox AC30, but often pulled out his AC15 for rehearsals & smaller gigs.
He still got pretty loud at times, but it was never overpowering. His main problem was noodling.

[discreet]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1365358213' post='2038514']
His main problem was noodling.
[/quote]

Ours doesn't noodle and rarely solos... I'm beginning to think he's a keeper!

[EssentialTension]

Don't concentrate on being loud enough to hear yourself.

Instead, be quiet enough that you can hear everyone else.

If everyone does that, then there is no problem.

[SimonEdward]

Loud rehearsals... Why?

I had the misfortune many years' ago (when I'd just started out - age of 17) to do a first audition for an originals band, who's Bassist had left. A guy at my local music shop recommended that I go for a try out, to learn and get experience. I learnt afterwards they had asked him - but he had declined.

I turned up with my first amp (Carlsbro combo), and used it like a wedge - so I could hear myself - as the Drummer was extremely LOUD. He was good, AND it was his band... "We're going places mate". Eventually, they suggested I move my amp 'out front' - because they couldn't hear me.

A couple of hours later, with my ears ringing, everyone looked a bit fed up... "I don't think you're for us mate". They were probably right. Some members of the band went down to the music shop a few days later to say "he was sh1t" etc etc. I heard the Drummer joined another band a few months later.

Since then, I've always used my amp as a wedge. I turn it up as much as I need. I give f.o.h a DI and in general, get good feedback (um?) about my sound - but maybe not so much about my playing!! As a Bassist, I like to get a general mix? of how everything is sounding - IME, If the vocalist is happy then all the better, but the sound engineer/f.o.h will probably have the best view.............................. never had to use ear-plugs.