Pre or Post for DI out?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365513584' post='2040525']
Agree...but if that was the ante... why would you be leaving it to that sort of chance/lottery.? I wouldn't and I'd have talked to the P.A co prior.
[/quote]

This is all ideal world stuff.

If you provide the PA company with a spec, and they say they're fine with it, you have to take them at their word.

The only time you can find out for certain is when it's too late to get someone else in, at which point you just work with the hand you're dealt.

I've battled through plenty of shabby, tin-pot PA disasters in my time. There's no point getting upset about it.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365513180' post='2040516']
A good quality bass guitar usually sounds good direct in, An electric guitar with no fx usually doesn't, how's that?
[/quote]

Do you really believe that? Or are you simply parroting 60 years of propaganda from lazy PA and studio engineers?

And if you do think your statement is correct why have you wasted money buying some nice GB amplification, when a simple powered wedge monitor will do the job at a fraction of the cost?

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1365514823' post='2040544']
This is all ideal world stuff.

If you provide the PA company with a spec, and they say they're fine with it, you have to take them at their word.

The only time you can find out for certain is when it's too late to get someone else in, at which point you just work with the hand you're dealt.

I've battled through plenty of shabby, tin-pot PA disasters in my time. [b]There's no point getting upset about it.[/b]
[/quote]

No..but you try not and invite it again.

After some of the above ( they aren't all of the same gig ) we made it known to the festival that we didn't rate the P.A.... there was no seperation in the cabs anyway ( another story ) ..and we didn't rate the engr. No probs with DI tho
The job was initially taken by a friend of ours...who also happens to be very good..and had done the gig very well previously, which is why he was rebooked....but he subbed it out..and was mortified when we reeled off list of 'issues' with his dep AND mate.
.
Anyway..we have a good relationship with some venues and they listened ..and they have booked a very good company for this years date.
All we have to do now is cope with the attitude of the band on before us... that will be fun getting them off stage at the correct time...
Will let you know how that goes...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365515556' post='2040555']
No..but you try not and invite it again.
[/quote]

We make our feelings known after the gig, of course.

Obviously we have our preferred PA co's dotted around the place, but we're always doing new gigs in new places. Which makes for some interesting PA experiences.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365515098' post='2040551']


Do you really believe that? Or are you simply parroting 60 years of propaganda from lazy PA and studio engineers?

And if you do think your statement is correct why have you wasted money buying some nice GB amplification, when a simple powered wedge monitor will do the job at a fraction of the cost?
[/quote]
I use a 1x12T cab for monitoring if there is a big pa, the 2x12T I use for gigs with no or little pa support. Like I said loads of people are going to in ears so not even a need for a cheap wedge if the whole band has gone that way, on stage silence, bliss

[JTUK]

Where do you get the signal for that then..? pre or post..?

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd still be pre, straight in, I presume others would go from pedal boards that could still be pre di even when used with a rig. I have a preamp on every instrument I own so I'm never truly free of tone shaping and as I said before it starts from the fingers anyway. life is too short to worry about some stuff, just get out there and play!

[peteb]

Has anyone noticed that a lot of bass players who do club type tours (or play a lot in Europe, etc) often have a preamp / DI on their pedal board??

I assume that this is to maintain a certain amount of control over their sound when they're using unfamiliar rigs or dealing with engineers who want to DI straight from the bass!

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365520034' post='2040625']
life is too short to worry about some stuff, just get out there and play!
[/quote]

+1

[chris_b]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1365524390' post='2040697']
....Has anyone noticed that a lot of bass players who do club type tours (or play a lot in Europe, etc) often have a preamp / DI on their pedal board??....
[/quote]

[size=3]Yep. A guy I know who used to tour a lot in Europe always took a Sansamp with him so he could get a consistent sound on any backline and DI that was provided.[/size]

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1365581891' post='2041214']
[size=3]Yep. A guy I know who used to tour a lot in Europe always took a Sansamp with him so he could get a consistent sound on any backline and DI that was provided.[/size]
[/quote]

yep..and carries a steinberger as it travels so well in a softcase..

I think that is s step too far...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1365524390' post='2040697']
Has anyone noticed that a lot of bass players who do club type tours (or play a lot in Europe, etc) often have a preamp / DI on their pedal board??

I assume that this is to maintain a certain amount of control over their sound when they're using unfamiliar rigs or dealing with engineers who want to DI straight from the bass!
[/quote]

Which once again negates the whole pre-/post- argument because a set up like that is most definitely post EQ.

Lets face it the only people who should be arguing for a pre- DI route are those who run passive basses without any effects in a 100% solid-state amp.

[stingrayPete1977]

I totally disagree but I guess that's clear already

Edited April 10, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[4 Strings]

Me too.

[thodrik]

I generaly prefer post if it is a nice preamp.

If the soundperson is good I am generally happy to do whatever they want to do, pre/post/DI box/mic or whatever. If the soundperson is entirely clueless (rare but it happens), then I am liable to just take a sansamp, set it to a vague approximation of the SVT setting, and just hope for the best.

[4 Strings]

Most of my gigs are backline only. For the others, if the bass in coming from front of house I just can't see the point in sending a signal that has been specifically sculpted for a particular speaker cabinet for on stage monitoring to a sound desk for the completely different response from the pa system.

By all means get the sound man to hear your rig and tell him you want it sounding like that but insist on throwing, for example, a bass heavy signal or a scooped one to the sound desk and expect him to get a clear and punchy sound from his pa is, frankly, unfair.

There's nothing magical about the tone controls on your bass amp and they will be rudimentary compared to the eq on a decent desk. You won't be getting the sound you think you will.

Maybe all musicians should spend a bit of time mixing in their training. And talking.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365671014' post='2042522']
Most of my gigs are backline only. For the others, if the bass in coming from front of house I just can't see the point in sending a signal that has been specifically sculpted for a particular speaker cabinet for on stage monitoring to a sound desk for the completely different response from the pa system.

By all means get the sound man to hear your rig and tell him you want it sounding like that but insist on throwing, for example, a bass heavy signal or a scooped one to the sound desk and expect him to get a clear and punchy sound from his pa is, frankly, unfair.

There's nothing magical about the tone controls on your bass amp and they will be rudimentary compared to the eq on a decent desk. You won't be getting the sound you think you will.

Maybe all musicians should spend a bit of time mixing in their training. And talking.
[/quote]

Win.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365671014' post='2042522']
Most of my gigs are backline only. For the others, if the bass in coming from front of house I just can't see the point in sending a signal that has been specifically sculpted for a particular speaker cabinet for on stage monitoring to a sound desk for the completely different response from the pa system.

By all means get the sound man to hear your rig and tell him you want it sounding like that but insist on throwing, for example, a bass heavy signal or a scooped one to the sound desk and expect him to get a clear and punchy sound from his pa is, frankly, unfair.

There's nothing magical about the tone controls on your bass amp and they will be rudimentary compared to the eq on a decent desk. You won't be getting the sound you think you will.

Maybe all musicians should spend a bit of time mixing in their training. And talking.
[/quote]

Lose. Completely.

Guitarists have all sorts of peculiar EQ'd and otherwise effected tones, and no one bats an eyelid. The PA engineer sticks a mic in front of the speakers and gets on with it. Why should the bass be treated any different?

Modern bass guitar speakers are very much full range. They need to be in order to cope with all the different tones that they will be expected to reproduce from reggae rumble to super-percussive slap and everything in between. I use two very different speaker set ups with my rig depending on the size of the venue, but I don't have to change the EQ on my amp, I've simply wound down the tweeter level on the brighter set of cabs and that's it.

I do believe that the idea that you need to take a pre-EQ feed off the bass for the PA is way out of date. Maybe in the 60s and 70s when the bass went through what was essentially slightly modified guitar amps, but we've since come a long, long way from those early days.

Here's a thing: I've had many PA engineers come up to me a tell me how much they like it when I supply the bass rig, because their job becomes so much easier even though they always get a strictly post-EQ (and everything else) DI feed.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365679797' post='2042717']
Lose. Completely.

Guitarists have all sorts of peculiar EQ'd and otherwise effected tones, and no one bats an eyelid. The PA engineer sticks a mic in front of the speakers and gets on with it. Why should the bass be treated any different?

>> Unless the guitarists speakers have a particular sound that he wants reproducing (which they often do) there's no point in this. If you use any effects at all, it would have to be after those, but then the 'Pre' out the amp would be.

Modern bass guitar speakers are very much full range...

>>But almost all highly coloured. BF is one of the few not (I'm sure there are more), and even they won't have the same response as the PA speakers.

I do believe that the idea that you need to take a pre-EQ feed off the bass for the PA is way out of date. Maybe in the 60s and 70s when the bass went through what was essentially slightly modified guitar amps, but we've since come a long, long way from those early days.

>>So have PAs

Here's a thing: I've had many PA engineers come up to me a tell me how much they like it when I supply the bass rig, because their job becomes so much easier even though they always get a strictly post-EQ (and everything else) DI feed.

>>I think you need to go with what, in your experience, works best for you.
[/quote]


See responses above marked >>

One of the keys to getting a good overall sound is to try and find the resonances (how voices, instruments, drums etc react to the system and the room) and flatten them off to give some head room for that channel. If the signal given has, for example, a huge amount of bass and included in that is a resonance (or 'boom' in this case) then there's going to be less chance of getting rid of it and getting it to sound like you want it and it will end up being reduced in level and thin sounding, the exact reverse of what you're wanting.

Edited April 11, 2013 by 4 Strings

[mike257]

There's very good reasons for both approaches to exist.

When I'm mixing multi-band gigs where I don't know the bassist and the backline, I'll default to using a DI box and take the signal before the amp unless the player requests otherwise.

For me as an engineer, that means I know that even if the amp is crap, unreliable, gets its settings fiddled with by less educated people sharing rigs or whatever, I've got a consistent and reliable signal coming to FOH anyway.

If (for example) somebody like BRX rolled up who obviously knew his rig and his tones and had a setup that lent itself to me taking a post processing signal I'd be more than obliging - it only takes seconds to pull an XLR out of a DI box and throw it into somebody's rack/pedalboard/whatever.

I think you'll find that most FOH guys would love to work with a band to create the perfect FOH mix but the realities of gigging rarely allow for that luxury. The quality of their work is their calling card just as your performance is for you and they'll be looking for the best mix they can achieve given the time and resources available to them. Sometimes that means compromises have to be made somewhere, but with a bit of communication everybody can have their input and end up (reasonably) happy!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1365775840' post='2044361'] There's very good reasons for both approaches to exist. When I'm mixing multi-band gigs where I don't know the bassist and the backline, I'll default to using a DI box and take the signal before the amp unless the player requests otherwise. For me as an engineer, that means I know that even if the amp is crap, unreliable, gets its settings fiddled with by less educated people sharing rigs or whatever, I've got a consistent and reliable signal coming to FOH anyway. If (for example) somebody like BRX rolled up who obviously knew his rig and his tones and had a setup that lent itself to me taking a post processing signal I'd be more than obliging - it only takes seconds to pull an XLR out of a DI box and throw it into somebody's rack/pedalboard/whatever. I think you'll find that most FOH guys would love to work with a band to create the perfect FOH mix but the realities of gigging rarely allow for that luxury. The quality of their work is their calling card just as your performance is for you and they'll be looking for the best mix they can achieve given the time and resources available to them. Sometimes that means compromises have to be made somewhere, but with a bit of communication everybody can have their input and end up (reasonably) happy! [/quote]

Win.

[peteb]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1365775840' post='2044361']
There's very good reasons for both approaches to exist.

When I'm mixing multi-band gigs where I don't know the bassist and the backline, I'll default to using a DI box and take the signal before the amp unless the player requests otherwise.

For me as an engineer, that means I know that even if the amp is crap, unreliable, gets its settings fiddled with by less educated people sharing rigs or whatever, I've got a consistent and reliable signal coming to FOH anyway.

If (for example) somebody like BRX rolled up who obviously knew his rig and his tones and had a setup that lent itself to me taking a post processing signal I'd be more than obliging - it only takes seconds to pull an XLR out of a DI box and throw it into somebody's rack/pedalboard/whatever.

I think you'll find that most FOH guys would love to work with a band to create the perfect FOH mix but the realities of gigging rarely allow for that luxury. The quality of their work is their calling card just as your performance is for you and they'll be looking for the best mix they can achieve given the time and resources available to them. Sometimes that means compromises have to be made somewhere, but with a bit of communication everybody can have their input and end up (reasonably) happy!
[/quote]
Good post!

As much as I prefer to send a post signal I can understand why sometimes it makes sense to take a DI straight from the bass on multi-band bills with little turnaround time between sets. Good engineers can generally work with the bass player to get the sound that they want if there is a little time available and both parties know what they are doing!

I wish that all sound engineers had your attitude...

Edited April 12, 2013 by peteb

[4 Strings]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1365780236' post='2044474']

I wish that all sound engineers had your attitude...
[/quote]

Absolutely, but it works both ways too.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1365775840' post='2044361']
There's very good reasons for both approaches to exist.

When I'm mixing multi-band gigs where I don't know the bassist and the backline, I'll default to using a DI box and take the signal before the amp unless the player requests otherwise.

For me as an engineer, that means I know that even if the amp is crap, unreliable, gets its settings fiddled with by less educated people sharing rigs or whatever, I've got a consistent and reliable signal coming to FOH anyway.

If (for example) somebody like BRX rolled up who obviously knew his rig and his tones and had a setup that lent itself to me taking a post processing signal I'd be more than obliging - it only takes seconds to pull an XLR out of a DI box and throw it into somebody's rack/pedalboard/whatever.

I think you'll find that most FOH guys would love to work with a band to create the perfect FOH mix but the realities of gigging rarely allow for that luxury. The quality of their work is their calling card just as your performance is for you and they'll be looking for the best mix they can achieve given the time and resources available to them. Sometimes that means compromises have to be made somewhere, but with a bit of communication everybody can have their input and end up (reasonably) happy!
[/quote]
I agree with all of this If I had my own bass tech and sound crew I would love to spend hours crafting a great sound but in reality I'm happy with a generic 'Good sound' which as we know is subjective anyway. I hear JTUK and BRX loud and clear I really do but we only have to see footage of big names like Muse and the Chili peppers to know that FX live at a different venue every night cant have mixed outcomes even with a dedicated pro team at the helm,I love Flea but feck me does he have some sh*te sounds live

Edited April 12, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365671014' post='2042522']
Most of my gigs are backline only. For the others, if the bass in coming from front of house I just can't see the point in sending a signal that has been specifically sculpted for a particular speaker cabinet for on stage monitoring to a sound desk for the completely different response from the pa system.[/quote]

Which isn't exactly the case if you use one of the many modern speaker cabinets (Barefaced etc) which are typically very neutral so effectively very similar to PA speakers anyway.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365671014' post='2042522']By all means get the sound man to hear your rig and tell him you want it sounding like that but insist on throwing, for example, a bass heavy signal or a scooped one to the sound desk and expect him to get a clear and punchy sound from his pa is, frankly, unfair.[/quote]

Sure. But very few people do that. Personally I use my amps EQ for [i]general tone shaping[/i]. Not compensating for a bump at 5723Hz in the frequency response of my cabinet, because that would be pointless with a simple 3-band EQ anyway. No drastic cuts or boosts at [i]specific[/i] frequencies, just nice smooth curve to adjust the [i]tone[/i] of my instrument. The same as you might do with an active bass, or whatever. EQ's on amps typically have a fairly broad Q-factor.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365671014' post='2042522']There's nothing magical about the tone controls on your bass amp and they will be rudimentary compared to the eq on a decent desk. You won't be getting the sound you think you will.[/quote]

Precisely (to the first point). Equalizers on amps are designed for tone shaping. 32-band graphic equalizers are designed for removing unwanted frequency content to suit a room etc. I EQ my sound lightly to get the sort of tone that I want, and if there are any troublesome frequencies, [i]then[/i] the engineer can sort that out at the desk. It's not his choice what sort of tone I want, that's mine.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ziphoblat