Pre or Post for DI out?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1365409004' post='2039008']
Post for me where possible! I want the engineer to have a reference for how I want the bass to sound out front. If you have a decent amp with a good DI and know how to use your EQ then a decent engineer should be able to reproduce that sound.

If a soundman insists on using a pre signal I won't throw any toys out of the pram, but it is generally a bad sign. Usually it means that they are lazy (will give you a generic sound like they did the last guy), arrogant (want to let you know that they can get a better sound than you) or just a bit rubbish!

IME there are a lot of cr@p sound engineers out there, even in decent venues or using good PAs. Good ones definitely do need looking after...
[/quote]

Or it could mean they know a bit about sound and know that their system will make a better sound than the treble and bass controls on a bass amp. Some engineers receive such a ridiculously scooped sound from bass players' amps that there's nothing they can do to make the bass heard apart from elevating the level of stodge.

Generic sounds? Now there's a can of worms best avoided by taking some time with said sound engineer and letting him know what you want. Good ones listen and know exactIy what to do. I get cross at the keyboards, bass guitar, kick drum and bottom strings on the guitar all muddying up the same bottom end frequencies as they are eq'd in isolation for impressive sounds. I have stopped playing once at this (in a church too!) as it was pointless carrying on making the sounds worse.

Ok, off soap box.

[Adrenochrome]

I play in a fairly loud band and use a bit of valve drive from my amp (hybrid) as my main sound. I usually add some EQ to hear myself better onstage - I get a better FOH sound with a pre-EQ DI signal that is already coloured by my valve input pre.

[peteb]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365437184' post='2039619']


Or it could mean they know a bit about sound and know that their system will make a better sound than the treble and bass controls on a bass amp. Some engineers receive such a ridiculously scooped sound from bass players' amps that there's nothing they can do to make the bass heard apart from elevating the level of stodge.

Generic sounds? Now there's a can of worms best avoided by taking some time with said sound engineer and letting him know what you want. Good ones listen and know exactIy what to do. I get cross at the keyboards, bass guitar, kick drum and bottom strings on the guitar all muddying up the same bottom end frequencies as they are eq'd in isolation for impressive sounds. I have stopped playing once at this (in a church too!) as it was pointless carrying on making the sounds worse.

Ok, off soap box.
[/quote]
When it comes down to it, bands have to take responsibility and make sure that they make life easier for the sound engineer to get the FOH sound right. If you have cr@p gear or can't EQ an amp, it's no wonder that they want a pre signal! However, there are a lot of them out there that couldn't mix concrete, yet alone a band in a less than ideal room.

A mate of mine is a good pro sound engineer who runs a company that employs even better engineers. He says that if a band can get a good sound on stage then the engineer should be a able to reproduce that sound out front! He has a very jaundiced view of a lot of guys working quite big gigs, basically saying that many are incompetent. I have say that my own experience confirms this to a degree, not to mention (sometimes half decent) engineers who seem to think that the most important person on the show is them and seem to forget that it is about punters coming to see and hear a band...!

Edited April 8, 2013 by peteb

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1365437184' post='2039619']
Some engineers receive such a ridiculously scooped sound from bass players' amps that there's nothing they can do to make the bass heard apart from elevating the level of stodge.
[/quote]
And far too many engineers receive a lovely signal with warm mids to spare, and scoop it to death, leaving generic, scooped, barely audible banality.

It works both ways...

[Lozz196]

I think one of the things to remember here is that most sound engineers in venues will probably have 3 - 5 bands on the bill, and have very little time to get anyones sound perfect, so it`s far easier to take it pre, then leave it flat. It`s very unlikely that pre will be a sound that gets in the way, so turn it up loud enough and then leave it.

Think back to all those sound-checks - when has anyone on here, and include all your band-members in this, been asked to come out front and listen to the mix, and did any of the instruments need adjusting to represent the band-members sound better? Never? Well it`s probably they didn`t have enough time.

To me this is a venue issue, not a sound engineer issue. Promoter/venue does their research, puts two decent bands on the bill, spend some time on the sound-checks, and both bands sound great, audience very happy. Or, put 5 on the bill, and sound-check is little more than a levelling exercise. None of the bands sound remotely as they would like, and any fans that have the bands recorded material are left with the impression "they sound nothing like their recordings live/they sound rubbish live".

Factor in with this, on these bills bands are told to gear share - we`re playing a gig where all 5 bands have been told to pick one backline between them - and it`s no wonder live music isn`t what it used to be. None of the bands will sound anything like how they want to, therefore why bother trying to eq it anyway. Venues can kill bands easier than making them with this approach.

[Monckyman]

As above.
For an average of less than a tenner per band what kind of godlike genius engineer is expected?
PA systems sound nothing like Bergantino cabs and separate EQ is often essential.
Fact of life.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1365443874' post='2039737']
I think one of the things to remember here is that most sound engineers in venues will probably have 3 - 5 bands on the bill, and have very little time to get anyones sound perfect, so it`s far easier to take it pre, then leave it flat. It`s very unlikely that pre will be a sound that gets in the way, so turn it up loud enough and then leave it.

Think back to all those sound-checks - when has anyone on here, and include all your band-members in this, been asked to come out front and listen to the mix, and did any of the instruments need adjusting to represent the band-members sound better? Never? Well it`s probably they didn`t have enough time.

To me this is a venue issue, not a sound engineer issue. Promoter/venue does their research, puts two decent bands on the bill, spend some time on the sound-checks, and both bands sound great, audience very happy. Or, put 5 on the bill, and sound-check is little more than a levelling exercise. None of the bands sound remotely as they would like, and any fans that have the bands recorded material are left with the impression "they sound nothing like their recordings live/they sound rubbish live".

Factor in with this, on these bills bands are told to gear share - we`re playing a gig where all 5 bands have been told to pick one backline between them - and it`s no wonder live music isn`t what it used to be. None of the bands will sound anything like how they want to, therefore why bother trying to eq it anyway. Venues can kill bands easier than making them with this approach.
[/quote]

Yep, go along with this, but would add that many bands don't know how they want to sound. The bass player might have worked out a sound for himself, and the guitarist too, but not thought much about how their sounds fit together.

I must say I always have a chat, tell them where I want various instruments to sit, not had a bad response yet. Probably varied success in getting what I've asked but, so far, the sound engineers have all been willing, even if one or two have shown a little impatience.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1365454245' post='2039946']
As above.
For an average of less than a tenner per band what kind of godlike genius engineer is expected?
PA systems sound nothing like Bergantino cabs and separate EQ is often essential.
Fact of life.
[/quote]

We don't do multi bills, generally, but the P.A costs for a 5kw rig start at £400 inc 1 engr.
Anything less than that would worry me...
Min spec would be a pro HK rig, but pref Martin.

Again, all this is why you want to have experience of the compkany beforehand...or at least talked through the tech spec beforehand.

[PaulWarning]

pre but I always put my Zoom 506II in the chain first which is set up so my amp is flat, so I suppose that counts as post, confusing eh, and if the PA guy is using a DI box you ain't got a lot of choice, they always seem to plug your bass straight into them, but again I always make sure my effects is in between my bass and the DI box

[BigRedX]

And of course the pre-/post- argument is essentially invalid if you have any active tone shaping circuitry in the signal chain before the DI insertion point.

[stingrayPete1977]

We are all essentially post fingers, tone and volume can all be shaped right from there.

[BigRedX]

Every other instrument in a band is input into the PA at the very end of its signal chain. Someone please give me an excellent reason why the bass guitar alone should be treated any differently?

[bremen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365505095' post='2040361']
Every other instrument in a band is input into the PA at the very end of its signal chain. Someone please give me an excellent reason why the bass guitar alone should be treated any differently?
[/quote]

Yes, please do.

Also agreed that good/modern bass amps have far more versatile eq than the bass, treble and sweepable mid you get on the behringer desk that most venues offer.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1365503686' post='2040345']
pre but I always put my Zoom 506II in the chain first which is set up so my amp is flat, so I suppose that counts as post, confusing eh, and if the PA guy is using a DI box you ain't got a lot of choice, they always seem to plug your bass straight into them, but again I always make sure my effects is in between my bass and the DI box
[/quote]
[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365504690' post='2040357']
And of course the pre-/post- argument is essentially invalid if you have any active tone shaping circuitry in the signal chain before the DI insertion point.
[/quote]
Cheers BigRedX you said it in half the number of words I used

[JTUK]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1365507445' post='2040385']
Yes, please do.

Also agreed that good/modern bass amps have far more versatile eq than the bass, treble and sweepable mid you get on the behringer desk that most venues offer.
[/quote]

Why do people use these sorts of companies if the kit is deemed inadequate...??
This is why you need to use people you know and trust, IMO....

I don't think I'd be hiring a Belringer/PV type P.A as we could cobble together far better ourselves...IMO.
And you can't leave this sort of thing to people who don't know much but work against a price.

[bremen]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365510850' post='2040458']


Why do people use these sorts of companies if the kit is deemed inadequate...??
This is why you need to use people you know and trust, IMO....

I don't think I'd be hiring a Belringer/PV type P.A as we could cobble together far better ourselves...IMO.
And you can't leave this sort of thing to people who don't know much but work against a price.
[/quote]

I'm talking about the dreaded "house PA" here.

[shizznit]

The post EQ on my EBS amps sound pretty good through a quality FOH, plus the speaker sim feature is handy. But, I always leave the final decision to go post or pre to the engineer. It's that old chestnut of the engineers only wanting to hear a low rumble in the mix and call it a bass guitar. I don't take that view. Sometimes its the technology on hand and the bass player themselves making life difficult.

Venue acoustics aside, the simple fact is that a mixing desk and a set of FOH cabs is not a bass amp and will never sound as good as standing a few feet away from your rig on stage. 10-15yrs ago I didn't really care if my DI was sent to FOH pre or post EQ because it would have ended up sounding pretty crap anyway, but improvements in speaker technology and developments in digital mixers and power amps...even acoustic dampening has helped to give a more transparent footprint of what's is happening on stage. I am finding that experienced engineers are switching to post EQ DI feeds more so these days.

But, I think that I get away with it because I run my amps EQ's quite flat which does make it easier to EQ and mix from the desk. If you like your EQ with huge sweeps and cuts across the spectrum you might find that the engineer will go pre EQ as your signal will drive the gain path on the mixer crazy and is very difficult to work with. It's a fine balancing act between what you want to hear on stage and what you want the punters to hear. Don't be afraid to work with the engineer and get them to listen to your onstage tone. Any engineer that takes their job seriously will spend the time to do that (if they do have the time available) and think of a solution to accurately represent you through the FOH as best they can.

[BigRedX]

But no one would even think that a guitarist should plug his guitar directly into a DI box and use that sound for FOH, so why should the bass guitar be any different?

[JTUK]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1365511646' post='2040474']
I'm talking about the dreaded "house PA" here.
[/quote]

There are a few house P.A's like that in pubs round here... and they may come with the LL doing the sound.
All I can say is "AVOID AT ALL COSTS" ... and we'd take our own.
We haven't been invited back to one pub as we wont use their rig... and our beef was that the LL/engr didn't know what he was doing and couldn't get any useable level out of the Vox mons so the singer went hoarse that night... All round NOT GOOD.

This is why we get a bit precious about these sorts of things... and it may sound a bit hard to work with...
but do it right or don't bother is a good enough mantra to start with.

It may cost you more but it is worth it... IMO.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365510850' post='2040458']
Why do people use these sorts of companies if the kit is deemed inadequate...??
This is why you need to use people you know and trust, IMO....
[/quote]

Sometimes you have to rely on the PA company that is provided or recommended.

If you've driven 400 miles to do a gig, and people have paid 10 or 15 quid for a ticket, you're hardly going to get back in the van and drive home. You just have to get on with it.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365512556' post='2040497']
But no one would even think that a guitarist should plug his guitar directly into a DI box and use that sound for FOH, so why should the bass guitar be any different?
[/quote]
A good quality bass guitar usually sounds good direct in, An electric guitar with no fx usually doesn't, how's that?

Also as many pro players are moving to in ear monitoring your idea that no one else is going straight in albeit after some form of box of tricks is unfounded.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365513180' post='2040516']
A good quality bass guitar usually sounds good direct in
[/quote]

It might sound good, but does it sound like the person playing it wants it to sound?

Or does the amp play a part in that?

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1365512845' post='2040507']
Sometimes you have to rely on the PA company that is provided or recommended.

If you've driven 400 miles to do a gig, and people have paid 10 or 15 quid for a ticket, you're hardly going to get back in the van and drive home. You just have to get on with it.
[/quote]

Agree...but if that was the ante... why would you be leaving it to that sort of chance/lottery.? I wouldn't and I'd have talked to the P.A co prior.
That is not to say that that would eliminate everything, as the game is full of chancers but you can give yourselves a better chance.
If you do a gig and the sound is not good, then that comes mostly back to the band... and if I've driven a good few miles
I don't want to be caught out by something a phone call could have pretty much sorted.
The very least is that you are happy with the P.A spec... and then you still have to get past the engr being on his game.

But sure... the road is littered with horrors....
All of ours, these last few years have been noticed at band level... rather than the gig being spoilt as far as we could tell
and there may be a fine line between being a pain and just getting away with it.
We are..believe it or not, quite cool about it...but that is not to say we will invite the same sort of problem.
We haven't refused to work with anyone but we have used our influence to get another P.A company in, that we worked well with before.

It is clear to me that the more you do these sort of things, the more reason you need to be pretty strict about what actually is allowed to happen..

[shizznit]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1365512845' post='2040507']
Sometimes you have to rely on the PA company that is provided or recommended.

If you've driven 400 miles to do a gig, and people have paid 10 or 15 quid for a ticket, you're hardly going to get back in the van and drive home. You just have to get on with it.
[/quote]

Spot on. Your job is on the stage. What happens off it is out of your control and trust that everyone else involved do their job to the best of their abilities. Do as much as you can to make other people's jobs easier and more pleasant whilst doing yours. Beyond that, put in a good performance and the make sure the punters have enjoyed their evening. Any moans and groans can be reserved for the trip back home.

[JTUK]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1365513625' post='2040526']
Spot on. Your job is on the stage. What happens off it is out of your control and trust that everyone else involved do their job to the best of their abilities. Do as much as you can to make other people's jobs easier and more pleasant whilst doing yours. Beyond that, put in a good performance and the make sure the punters have enjoyed their evening. Any moans and groans can be reserved for the trip back home.
[/quote]

And if you can work well enough to get away with that..then fine..
But we have had no vox in monitors ..and that makes the evening a strain..albeit a pub house P.A.
We have had no kick in drum fill... after asking for it 3 times...
Eventually the drummer had to go to the desk himself and say this AGAIN to the engr.
We've had no drum monitor at all...for vox..as the engr had moved it and forgot to put it back...
Eventually the drummer got off his stool and moved it himself.
We have had no keys outfront for the best part of the gig....assume the engr only worked with gtr bands..
we have had to tell an engr how to EQ the drum sound... as he really wasn't getting anywhere..

and on and on...
Anyone of these could have affected the performance... and I recall all the gigs being well received at the time
but we would be amiss if we let this go... and just shrugged our shoulders.

And as it happends, we haven't worked with any of these companies since.
It is in everyones interest to put on a good show... so everyone needs to play a decent part.

Edited April 9, 2013 by JTUK