Groove or Rock, Can a player excel at both ?

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1365587375' post='2041331']I don't know about excel at both, but a player can sure as hell be crap at both!
[/quote][quote name='lojo' timestamp='1365589494' post='2041368']yes, its possible to be great at both, though not every is great at even one.[/quote][/size]
[size=4]Sadly there is much evidence to support these views! [/size]

Edited April 10, 2013 by discreet

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1365588726' post='2041354']
Bass is part of the rhythm section. You should be able to make a song groove just playing a mix of 8th and 16th root notes.

If choosing to play roots is note choice it's very basic note choice
[/quote]

But the bass is also a melodic instrument. Sometimes root notes work, sometimes they can kill the song dead no matter how good your micro-timing is.

[hamfist]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365588991' post='2041362']
Have a drummer who is a rocker and he is really good at that.. as good as anyone around here, IMO.
He can make a pass at the funkier stuff and sound pretty decent ..
but you can tell he doesn't listen to it..and therefore he is short., IMO.
If he put the time in..he could be so much better but he doesn't have the empathy or desire.
Not a problem in reality as nobody but a really good funk drummer would notice...
but...
It is more than just having the notes/licks down.... in both genres.

I think it is fair to say so and so is a rock player OR a funk player.
The people that I know just don't cross-over or can't... ( I am talking about being at home in both a Maiden song or a Jamiroquai song... hmmmm..???)
and why would they unless you are talking playing AT it, rather than playing IT.
[/quote]

It a great, and very articulate post.

Someone earlier in the tthread asked me (the OP) what I really meant. I think I'm talking about rock vs funk really. I think "groove" is too ambiguous a term.
I do listen to, and enjoy both (although have far more of a heritage in rock). I can learn the lines for funk, and get them to sound authentic, but can't think of the note selection for myself, in a million years. So I'm playing along to something and want to "funk it up" it's a real struggle. However, I'll instantly know how to rock something, even in quite an advanced and complex way. It's just there whenever I want it.
Maybe it is more of the sheer amount of time I have listened to, and played, rock.

OR ..... is it that I listen to, and enjoy, rock because my brain somehow relates to it in a way that seems to resonate in my head/heart better.

WHich came first, the chicken or the egg ?

[risingson]

Like one or two people have said, they're linked so it's not like you need to be exclusively good at one.

Michael Jackson used to tell his band "keep the rock funky and the funk rocking".

Personally I hate all this groove talk amongst bass players, if you've got an interest in playing then it's in your interest to have a great feel across genres. It's just a word that gets bandied around a lot.

[discreet]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1365594341' post='2041469']
...I hate all this groove talk amongst bass players, if you've got an interest in playing then it's in your interest to have a great feel across genres. It's just a word that gets bandied around a lot.
[/quote]

It means different things to different people depending on what you've listened to and how you've been influenced by it. Which is how it should be - if everyone had the same musical history, a lot of bands would be really boring, wouldn't they... oh, wait...

Edited April 10, 2013 by discreet

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365586023' post='2041303']


Mmm, not sure I agree. For a bassist, the two are pretty much equal in their necessity. Any intermediate bassist should be able to apply those two qualities to their music with equal panache.
[/quote]

+1. But I'm not sure about applying French shandy to my music...

[hamfist]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1365594341' post='2041469']
Like one or two people have said, they're linked so it's not like you need to be exclusively good at one.

Michael Jackson used to tell his band "keep the rock funky and the funk rocking".
[/quote]

I just don't see it. Of course, this does all depend on people's viewpoints and definitions of what rock and funk actually are (i.e. I could never define Michael Jackson of having ever rocked). I have never been aware of a player that is seriously outstanding at both. Would love to be proved wrong though. Suggestions gratefully received.

[JTUK]

Didn't really want to post this..but ..?

Flea is a rock bass player who uses a perceived funk technique...( slap )
Only rock bass players think it (he ) sounds funky. and this is why funk players don't really want to talk about his technique/style.. IMO.

I have this 'discussion' about 'Higher Ground' which seems to be a default rock slap part.
Some guys want to play it exactly as Flea does... in order to be called a slap bass player... (this is true, IME)
whereas the point should be..IMO..is it funky..?

[xilddx]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365597872' post='2041567']
I just don't see it. Of course, this does all depend on people's viewpoints and definitions of what rock and funk actually are (i.e. I could never define Michael Jackson of having ever rocked). I have never been aware of a player that is seriously outstanding at both. Would love to be proved wrong though. Suggestions gratefully received.
[/quote]

It's a perception thing, based on your preconceptions of stylistic pigeonholing. And anyway, funk is a way of life, a way of thinking, Deftones are immensely funky, Beyoncé is heavy as f***. Try to break out of these entrapments, they are not for musicians, they're for fans. Concentrate on what makes you feel good, and what is suitable for the music, whether that be note choices, timing, microtones, nuances, rhythmic/harmonic/melodic phrasing etc. Work on your aesthetic. Forget the labels. Be an individual.

[fumps]

I hope a versatile bass player can do both. I'm originally a thrash bass player now learning to do covers that have a lots of different grove depending on the song, I'm finding it's out of my comfort zone but that's why I decided to do it.

So far so good, it's definitely developing me as a player

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365591237' post='2041398']


But the bass is also a melodic instrument. Sometimes root notes work, sometimes they can kill the song dead no matter how good your micro-timing is.
[/quote]

It can be melodic but not very often. Usually it's harmonic or just bass. Root notes are just my simple example. If you played just one single whole note in a bar, it's timing is absolutely critical in how the song feels, it's pitch just as critical but you generally would have only one choice of pitch and that wouldn't affect the groove in any way.

Groove is where you put the notes not which notes you use.

[Cameronj279]

Tim Commerford?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1365601874' post='2041646']
It can be melodic but not very often. Usually it's harmonic or just bass. Root notes are just my simple example. If you played just one single whole note in a bar, it's timing is absolutely critical in how the song feels, it's pitch just as critical but you generally would have only one choice of pitch and that wouldn't affect the groove in any way.

Groove is where you put the notes not which notes you use.
[/quote]

But IMO everything about each note is important. Pitch, timing, volume, timbre, attack and sustain to name but a few. You can't dissect it down to individual parameters because they all add together to make a line work or not.

However if we are just looking at micro-timing, it only works when the whole band has the same feel. You can play a line on your own and it can have fantastic feel, but if the rest of the band play it with even a slightly different feel, you'll be the one who sounds wrong.

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365605317' post='2041709']


But IMO everything about each note is important. Pitch, timing, volume, timbre, attack and sustain to name but a few. You can't dissect it down to individual parameters because they all add together to make a line work or not.

However if we are just looking at micro-timing, it only works when the whole band has the same feel. You can play a line on your own and it can have fantastic feel, but if the rest of the band play it with even a slightly different feel, you'll be the one who sounds wrong.
[/quote]

Indeed. We all sound different. Swapping one member of a band can and does often completely change the feel of a band.

IMO the drummer and the bass have the most input into whether the band grooves or not. That's why I believe that the note choices are secondary. Attack, volume, and sustain are more timing than pitch related. It is difficult to separate the two but I think for someone to believe they're not grooving because they're playing pentatonic blues scales and not minor 3rds and 7ths is going down the wrong route.

[sykilz]

Kings X, the bass MAN...Doug Pinnick...welcome to the groove machine, he`s no slapper (!) but the man grooves and rocks like a monster. Check out the tunes "Pray" and "Welcome to the groove machine",amongst others.

[risingson]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365597872' post='2041567']
I just don't see it. Of course, this does all depend on people's viewpoints and definitions of what rock and funk actually are (i.e. I could never define Michael Jackson of having ever rocked). I have never been aware of a player that is seriously outstanding at both. Would love to be proved wrong though. Suggestions gratefully received.
[/quote]

Didn't JPJ from Zep already get suggested? Timmy C from RATM was also a great one. AC/DC's Back In Black 'grooves' hard, it made it easy for Jay Z to rap over, typically an artist who is known for rapping over funk/R&B/soul samples (at least in the earlier days when DJ Premier worked with him).

Michael Jackson never rocked? You ever heard Beat It or Dirty Diana?

Discreet was right in as much as definitions will vary from person to person but it's all to easy for musicians to get hung up on the perception that styles cannot overlap, of course they can, and should.

[risingson]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365598577' post='2041579']
Didn't really want to post this..but ..?

Flea is a rock bass player who uses a perceived funk technique...( slap )
Only rock bass players think it (he ) sounds funky. and this is why funk players don't really want to talk about his technique/style.. IMO.

I have this 'discussion' about 'Higher Ground' which seems to be a default rock slap part.
Some guys want to play it exactly as Flea does... in order to be called a slap bass player... (this is true, IME)
whereas the point should be..IMO..is it funky..?
[/quote]

Agreed about Flea being a rock player with funkier sensibilities but I definitely do not agree that he can't 'groove' (eugh the more I see that word the more I don't like it!). There are loads of tracks with the RHCP that he didn't slap on but grooved all the way through. Would you describe him as a rock player with no other sides to his playing? The funk influence on his musicianship and feel are pretty obvious.

Is he the archetypical funk player? Obviously not, leave that to George Porter Jr. Not everyone is going to have heard of the Meters though so let them discover down to the bone funk bands through common influence on players like Flea. There's no need to so rigidly define stuff.

[Lowender]

[quote name='spike' timestamp='1365584930' post='2041279']
I'd say anyone could excel at both if they wanted to, it's just a matter of feel and practice.


[/quote]

Couldn't disagree more. Those are intrinsic qualities. Sure, practice perfects them but it';s not like if you put X amount of hours in you'll be able to groove. Guys play all their lives and never learn to groove well.

As for the OP question. There are plenty of guys who do both well. I think Chris Squire and Steve Harris have amazing groove, but it isn't "funky." So yeah, what is really being asked. John Paul Jones is a good example of someone who can rock and be funky. Anthony Jackson is another. I'd like to do both, butI like both kinds of music. Many people concentrate on one style.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Lowender

[Lowender]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1365607614' post='2041746']

Michael Jackson never rocked? You ever heard Beat It or Dirty Diana?


[/quote]

Oddly enough I think "Beat it" is a good example of TRYING to rock and failing miserably. It sounds stiff, contrived, false and forced. The solo is the only thing that keeps it from being totally lame.

[JustaBass]

Went to see these fellas at the Bush Empire last night they were great and that bassline in the chorus
answers your question imho,

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MA0m1K2jW4[/media]

[risingson]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1365608440' post='2041767']
Oddly enough I think "Beat it" is a good example of TRYING to rock and failing miserably. It sounds stiff, contrived, false and forced. The solo is the only thing that keeps it from being totally lame.
[/quote]

It's certainly not dated well in the context in which it's being discussed so I'd kind of agree to an extent. Jacko had some big rock tunes though, it almost became his thing.

[sykilz]

http://youtu.be/mg3mUhGVCgo

Groovy Rocky baby.

[hamfist]

I think removing the word "groove" from our thoughts for the rest of this thread would be beneficial. I regret using it in my OP. I was intending to discuss and compare Funk and rock.

Yes, rock can groove, and funk can groove, but it's in different ways. But funk is not rock, and vica-versa.

[risingson]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365612652' post='2041831']
But funk is not rock, and vica-versa.
[/quote]

They're incredibly closely related! Trying to separate them is a pointless exercise as most if not all genres are able to cross-polinate to an extent, even folk and hip-hop which are fairly far removed from each other (for example). Two genres as closely related as funk music and rock music it's going to be easy to fuse together, the former wouldn't even exist without the latter. They're different to an extent but inextricably linked, they share very common attributes.

You've also got to remind yourself what you personally consider constitutes 'rock' music. Is it Buddy Holly? The Beatles, Zeppelin, Nirvana, Soundgarden, The Arctic Monkeys... Cannibal Corpse?

So to sum up then, I think what you're trying to explain is that if you play rock music you can't play funk, and vice versa - sorry if that's not what you're saying and I've misconstrued you.

[JTUK]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1365608115' post='2041756']
Agreed about Flea being a rock player with funkier sensibilities but I definitely do not agree that he can't 'groove' (eugh the more I see that word the more I don't like it!). There are loads of tracks with the RHCP that he didn't slap on but grooved all the way through. Would you describe him as a rock player with no other sides to his playing? The funk influence on his musicianship and feel are pretty obvious.

Is he the archetypical funk player? Obviously not, leave that to George Porter Jr. Not everyone is going to have heard of the Meters though so let them discover down to the bone funk bands through common influence on players like Flea. There's no need to so rigidly define stuff.
[/quote]

Didn't really want to make this about one player but in this example... he doesn't groove by any defintion I understand.so yes, I'd call him a rock player pure and simple ...