April/May Mix Competition - VOTING COMPLETE!

[lurksalot]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1369075590' post='2084614']

I don't understand how saying his mix is "too good" amongst a bunch of rookies is harsh? I didn't want to vote for the pro, because I thought the hobbyist might appreciate the vote more. [/quote]

The way I see it is that I am learning , and while I think my mix cuts it this month , the winner gets to explain how he did it and we all learn , this is not a popularity contest it is a learning resource .

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369078963' post='2084663']
The way I see it is that I am learning , and while I think my mix cuts it this month , the winner gets to explain how he did it and we all learn , this is not a popularity contest it is a learning resource .
[/quote]

How can it be a popularity contest when it's completely anonymous? I didn't know whose track was whose when I voted. I voted for the one that I personally liked the best and thought was mixed well. If it was purely on the skill with which it was mixed, I would have chosen Simon's, simple. Maybe that makes me a bit of a pleb, but I don't really care.

[lurksalot]

Rather than judge the mixes against my own , I have now listened to far too much Conferderate Railroad, Shania Twain ,Randy Travis and Garth Brooks .
Whilst I am now halfway through my second bottle of JD , the crop has just failed , the car has been repo'd and the dog has run off with the wife, the experience however, has pointed me at the mix to vote for

[Twigman]

To me, the most important elements of this song are the vocal, the fiddle and the banjo. Between them they navigate a path through the song, providing the melodies throughout. To me, there is only one mix that does that consistently and successfully. It just happens to be mine, sorry.

Ha Ha

Edited May 20, 2013 by Twigman

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369080310' post='2084682']
Rather than judge the mixes against my own , I have now listened to far too much Conferderate Railroad, Shania Twain ,Randy Travis and Garth Brooks .
Whilst I am now halfway through my second bottle of JD , the crop has just failed , the car has been repo'd and the dog has run off with the wife, the experience however, has pointed me at the mix to vote for
[/quote]

And the bank's going to take your house, don't forget that old cliche.

[51m0n]

Milty, it's cool mate.

Vote for what you like the most.
Vote for what says ' Great mix of this song '.

Vote for the mix you most want to hear about how it was done.
It's your vote, spend it well.

If anyone wants to know how I did whatever after the reveal I will tell them regardless of where I came.

It fascinates me how many votes go to mixes that I can hear technical flaws in. I really want to understand this more, so I learn by people's honest opinion too, even more so when my mix doesn't win the popular vote. It's still a really good mix by every criteria I can measure it by....

[Twigman]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369080822' post='2084689']
It fascinates me how many votes go to mixes that I can hear technical flaws in.
[/quote]
To me, the current leader in the poll (without giving anything away) sounds like it has been smothered with a pillow!

yes it has in your face bass but that's about it....I think it has missed the important elements and structure of the song....
The snare definitely sounds like it has been smothered with a blanket or something and the lead elements have a thin far away feel to them...

Just IMHO of course....

so shoot me

Edited May 20, 2013 by Twigman

[lurksalot]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1369080938' post='2084691']
To me, the current leader in the poll (without giving anything away) sounds like it has been smothered with a pillow!
[/quote]

, I don't happen to agree , but there was one out there that I thought was mixed under a blanket , I reckon you must have thought that one was mixed underwater

[lurksalot]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369080822' post='2084689']

It fascinates me how many votes go to mixes that I can hear technical flaws in. I really want to understand this more, so I learn by people's honest opinion too, even more so when my mix doesn't win the popular vote. It's still a really good mix by every criteria I can measure it by....
[/quote]

Everyone judges by different criteria I reckon , the subtlety of whether there is too heavy compression or over aggressive gating will not even get recognised by some. I wouldn't have noticed it last month , but this month..... .

[Twigman]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369081431' post='2084697']
, I don't happen to agree ,[/quote]
That's democracy at work right there....

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369081431' post='2084697']
but there was one out there that I thought was mixed under a blanket , I reckon you must have thought that one was mixed underwater
[/quote]Aye - there is one.....hopefully you're not refering to the one I did....I doubt it but you never know...

[lurksalot]

We will have to have another poll to guess whose mix is whose .
it will all come out in the wash though .

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1369081951' post='2084704']
Aye - there is one.....hopefully you're not refering to the one I did....I doubt it but you never know...
[/quote]

More than likely my one. The lead vocals on mine were so bassy that they just blended in to the scenery, so to speak. I do realise why it has no votes, I guess it just sounded better before I had something to measure it against

[lurksalot]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369080310' post='2084682']
Rather than judge the mixes against my own , I have now listened to far too much Conferderate Railroad, Shania Twain ,Randy Travis and Garth Brooks .
Whilst I am now halfway through my second bottle of JD , the crop has just failed , the car has been repo'd and the dog has run off with the wife, the experience however, has pointed me at the mix to vote for
[/quote]
[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1369083877' post='2084739']
I guess it just sounded better before I had something to measure it against
[/quote]

I tried to work out what the genre [u]should[/u] sound like to mix to , still missed the target mind , but not displeased with it , I then did it again to vote . Referencing is part of the process , but I am still working out how to do it properly .

[TenLetters]

I was struggling to hear my mix amongst these......turns out I sent Si the standard and not secret link to my track this month so he could not access it. Public apologies to Si for any inconvenience and thanks again for putting this all together!

If anyone has any tolerance for country left after this im going to post my mix in the hope of a bit of feedback. I was rushed but its my first attempt with 'well recorded' tracks so I would be interested to hear what others think if anyone gets round to it.

Of the tracks submitted 3 stood out for me and i really struggled to pick one over the rest - each had elements i liked. In the end i'm not really sure why i made my vote from a technical point of view, it was more to do with the feel of the mix as a whole.

Edited May 20, 2013 by TenLetters

[Dad3353]

I'm waiting, impatiently, for the voting to be over, so that I may match the comments all through this thread (and others...) to the mixed tracks. It's going to be interesting actually hearing what such-and-such treatment did on this or that track. I don't wish to comment to any great length before the poll is closed. Hurry along, Si, let's declare a winner and be done with it..? The we can get down to the nitty-gritty of revealing all the little secrets that we all have.
([i]Sound of foot tapping, nails being chewed, sweat rolling down forehead and splashing onto floor[/i]...)

[lowdown]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1369081891' post='2084702']
Everyone judges by different criteria I reckon , the subtlety of whether there is too heavy compression or over aggressive gating will not even get recognised by some.
[/quote]

+1
If it comes over as Musical and pleasant to the ears, people will more than likely go for it.
I for one always take great interest in Si's comments and summing up on these mix get togethers.
A lot of you folk put plenty of time and effort into this, so i hope people vote for the right reasons.


Garry

[51m0n]

Having thought about it a bit more, I wonder whether people ought to divulge what they were listening to the mixes on when they came to the opinion they did.

I base my thoughts on having listened to these mixes on a whole array of sources usually, firstly my main work cans, because thats where my butt is sat more than anywhere else. They are a pair of Senn HD595s that have seen better days, but I have listened to music on them for nearly 10 years, and boy do I know their flaws! That will rule out all the mixes that are just not up to scratch technically, unless the issue is up high (above 8KHz), where they do tend to be a bit weak these days.

Then I also listen on my phone's earbuds, (RHAs nice but a little upper mid present), if I'm working from home I make sure I have a listen on a set of Studiospares m1000s headphones, and I make a final call listening on the big speakers, with a quick refernce to the mono mix off my mobile speaker, because if it doesnt work with that, then how will the young oiks on the bus ever be able to enjoy it?

With each proper listen to the mixes I can whittle out more of them, each month the general level has improved as well, some months we've had some really excellent work, this month I think people have found very difficult as it goes. That much twang is a very special kind o fchallenge in terms of frequency mixing to get elements to sit together and play nice.

But it is staggering to me that mix E is gettng the love it is (not particualrly anti-E as it goes, I can just hear things that seem incredibly blattantly unmusical about it), and I really do want to understand what it is about it that is so attractive to so many, and whether it sounds partuicularly good on a certain type of playback set up may be part of that answer.

I know this sounds like masses of listening for hours and hours, but I can pretty quickly rule out a lot of the mixes we have as not right because of <insert technical issue, or mixing decision I dotn dig, or reason why iot doesnt feel musical here>. So I end up listening to two or three mixes a lot, which I rather like doing whilst working. Even when it is Country and Western

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369125257' post='2085008']
Having thought about it a bit more, I wonder whether people ought to divulge what they were listening to the mixes on when they came to the opinion they did.

I base my thoughts on having listened to these mixes on a whole array of sources usually, firstly my main work cans, because thats where my butt is sat more than anywhere else. They are a pair of Senn HD595s that have seen better days, but I have listened to music on them for nearly 10 years, and boy do I know their flaws! That will rule out all the mixes that are just not up to scratch technically, unless the issue is up high (above 8KHz), where they do tend to be a bit weak these days.

Then I also listen on my phone's earbuds, (RHAs nice but a little upper mid present), if I'm working from home I make sure I have a listen on a set of Studiospares m1000s headphones, and I make a final call listening on the big speakers, with a quick refernce to the mono mix off my mobile speaker, because if it doesnt work with that, then how will the young oiks on the bus ever be able to enjoy it?

With each proper listen to the mixes I can whittle out more of them, each month the general level has improved as well, some months we've had some really excellent work, this month I think people have found very difficult as it goes. That much twang is a very special kind o fchallenge in terms of frequency mixing to get elements to sit together and play nice.

But it is staggering to me that mix E is gettng the love it is (not particualrly anti-E as it goes, I can just hear things that seem incredibly blattantly unmusical about it), and I really do want to understand what it is about it that is so attractive to so many, and whether it sounds partuicularly good on a certain type of playback set up may be part of that answer.

I know this sounds like masses of listening for hours and hours, but I can pretty quickly rule out a lot of the mixes we have as not right because of <insert technical issue, or mixing decision I dotn dig, or reason why iot doesnt feel musical here>. So I end up listening to two or three mixes a lot, which I rather like doing whilst working. Even when it is Country and Western
[/quote]

Sennheiser HD 205s for me. It's what I used throughout mixing, so it's probably fair to judge the others by how they sound on the same set of headphones. I will by no means try to make out that they are a great set of headphones (Lacking bass), but they are the best I have, so they will have to do.

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369125257' post='2085008']Having thought about it a bit more, I wonder whether people ought to divulge what they were listening to the mixes on when they came to the opinion they did.[/quote]

Good question Si. I always test my own mixes using:[list]
[*]Studio cans (AKG K240 MKII Semi Open). Not the best cans by any means, but I know them very well and do 99% of my mixing and listening on them.
[*]Home hifi (old Tannoy speakers with a Cyrus amp, all 20 years old now! Adds lots of low end warmth so nowhere near a flat sound, but allows me to shift some air and check for issues at loud volume).
[*]Bedroom hifi (some 'all in one' combo thingy that Mrs Skol refuses to throw out. Skews the sounds all over the place! If a mix sounds good on this, it sounds good on most things).
[*]Phone ear buds (iPhone 5 jobbies).
[*]Phone speaker (the most brutal test of all!).
[*]Car stereo (if I can be arsed burning the mix to disc).
[/list]
...when listening to mixes as part of this competition, I nearly always just use my AKG cans. Simply because they're the source I know and trust the most.

PS: I've still yet to vote...

[MiltyG565]

I should also add that I give a listen on my macbook too, which has terrible speakers buried beneath the keyboard. If you can clearly hear a baseline with this sitting on you lap at a moderate volume, it's almost certainly too loud when you listen in the headphones.

I find Sennheiser in general (maybe just the cheaper ones) to be lacking low end clarity. Maybe i'm just used to hearing bass too well?

[Twigman]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1369126489' post='2085028']
Good question Si. I always test my own mixes using:[list]
[*]Studio cans (AKG K240 MKII Semi Open). Not the best cans by any means, but I know them very well and do 99% of my mixing and listening on them.
[*]Home hifi (old Tannoy speakers with a Cyrus amp, all 20 years old now! Adds lots of low end warmth so nowhere near a flat sound, but allows me to shift some air and check for issues at loud volume).
[*]Bedroom hifi (some 'all in one' combo thingy that Mrs Skol refuses to throw out. Skews the sounds all over the place! If a mix sounds good on this, it sounds good on most things).
[*]Phone ear buds (iPhone 5 jobbies).
[*]Phone speaker (the most brutal test of all!).
[*]Car stereo (if I can be arsed burning the mix to disc).
[/list]
...when listening to mixes as part of this competition, I nearly always just use my AKG cans. Simply because they're the source I know and trust the most.

PS: I've still yet to vote...
[/quote]
For me I listen back to the mixes using the same playback systems that I use when mixing:

1) The KRK Rokit6 monitors connected to the RME HDSP9632 in my studio PC
2) The Cambridge Audio hifi amp with Eltax speakers connected to the M-Audio 2496 soundcard in my studio PC
3) My Beyer DT-231 headphones via the Cambridge amp and m-Audio 2496
4) The Logic3 speakers connected to my office laptop

I will also check my mix, if I can be bothered, on the NAD with KEF speakers stereo in the lounge and through the Bose system in the car.

I find my headphones hide a multitude of sins and mixes can sound very different from the phones to the Rokits. Even switching from phones to speakers through the same amp I can notice a huge difference.

I do think most of my listening environments tend to colour the sound in their own way - it is frightfully difficult to balance to allow for the whims of all the systems.

[51m0n]

Some lovely systems being used.

How many of you have actually downloaded your favourite 2 or 3 mixes and compared the wavs - the difference between the wavs and the soundcloud stream is scarily noticeable to me, the soundlcoud stream sucks big time comapred to the wavs on every thing I've used to compare the two.

So much that I'm thinking it may make more sense next time to upload this to a dropbox account, to encourage people to download them.

[51m0n]

I would also think that judging purely on cans is really hard, nto for a lot of the, "nope thats not right" standout mixes, but when it comes to deciding between a couple that standout as rather good, mixes on headphones dont feel anything like mixes in a room, for one thing the room stamps its own signature on the mix, for another all the ambience levels will seem a little too high on a headphone mix if they are to work in a room IME, plu the panning that works right in a room will be too extreme on cans.

Now the number of people voting like they are would lead me to believe there is a lot of headphone listening and not a lot of listening on speakjers. Which I can understand actually, but it is strange that that may well be what is leading the voting the way it is going...

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1369126771' post='2085035']I should also add that I give a listen on my macbook too, which has terrible speakers buried beneath the keyboard. If you can clearly hear a baseline with this sitting on you lap at a moderate volume, it's almost certainly too loud when you listen in the headphones. I find Sennheiser in general (maybe just the cheaper ones) to be lacking low end clarity. Maybe i'm just used to hearing bass too well?[/quote]

Bass on headphones is always a slippery beast!

Generally speaking, if you're using a 'flat' pair of headphones that are designed for mixing (like your Sennheisers perhaps) rather headphones than are built for just listening (like those Dr Dre 'Beats' jobbies), then the bass tends to sound more quiet than it does when listening through external speakers, such as a home hifi. Why? Because when listening over speakers you literally 'feel' the bass as the low frequency waves impact with your body - especially the very low sub bass in certain genres of dance music, which is certainly more felt than heard (and is almost totally absent on headphones: it tends to feel like a pressure headache, if anything!).

Hence, when mixing on headphones it's easy to over-compensate and crank up the bass too loud - so that it sounds good on headphones, but will generally sound boomy thru speakers as a result. I've kinda got used to this, and I now know when the bass sounds about right on headphones. But it's still a guessing game. And all the more reason why I need to sort myself out with a pair of monitors! (a priority once we've moved house...).

If anyone else here is mixing solely on headphones, then you might want to have a look at this product - a magic box that emulates different listening environments for the purpose of mix referencing:

[url="http://uk.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/vrm-box"]http://uk.focusrite....erfaces/vrm-box[/url]

I don't own one myself - so this isn't an endorsement! - but I've heard that it's a useful little gizmo, although of course no substitute for decent monitor speakers.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369127950' post='2085047']How many of you have actually downloaded your favourite 2 or 3 mixes and compared the wavs - the difference between the wavs and the soundcloud stream is scarily noticeable to me, the soundlcoud stream sucks big time comapred to the wavs on every thing I've used to compare the two. So much that I'm thinking it may make more sense next time to upload this to a dropbox account, to encourage people to download them.[/quote]

Nope, but maybe I should. I always just play them all via SoundCloud as I suppose it's a 'common denominator' - each mix is being subjected to the same streaming - although I know from experimenting that SoundCloud is typically brutal with mixes that leave little headroom (and demolishes those than try to push up hard against 0db - a good argument for preserving dynamics!).

I'm not sure about the idea of using a Dropbox system. The pro's are obvious in that it would provide better quality material. The main con, IMO, is that is loses the convenience of SoundCloud and would deter some - maybe even a lot - of people outside our immediate cadre of enthusiasts from listening and voting. But I'm happy to go with the flow

Edited May 21, 2013 by Skol303

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1369128336' post='2085053']Now the number of people voting like they are would lead me to believe there is a lot of headphone listening and not a lot of listening on speakjers. Which I can understand actually, but it is strange that that may well be what is leading the voting the way it is going...[/quote]

I guess that's symptomatic of how a lot of people listen to music these days. I only get chance to crank up the home hifi at weekends myself, so I'm certain among the headphone brigade.