April/May Mix Competition - VOTING COMPLETE!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1370636506' post='2103911']
I thought older people were more likely to overcompensate for their loss of hearing by making a mix incredibly trebly. I remember being told by a theory teacher last year that Van Morrison had ruined one of his latest albums with his pig-headedness by overcompensating for his loss of hearing (Because Van is a nightmare to work with, I hear).
[/quote]

Quite so, old chum, quite so. This was indeed the gist of Si's comments...

[quote]That harsh reedy quality to the 'twang' instruments is there in abundance, the banjo sounds rather 'boxy' too[/quote]

...If only I could hear what 'twang' he was on about. Sounds fine to me...

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1370639473' post='2103960']
Quite so, old chum, quite so. This was indeed the gist of Si's comments...



...If only I could hear what 'twang' he was on about. Sounds fine to me...
[/quote]

I have forgotten what most of them are like. There was one that I thought was very trebly, but I'm unsure whether it was yours or not! I'm unwilling to go through and listen to them all again because I am perfectly sane

[Dad3353]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1370639648' post='2103964']...because I am perfectly sane [/quote]

Yes, Milty. Certainly, Milty. Whatever you say.

([i]Backs slowly towards the door.[/i]..)

Potato bread is wonderful, you're absolutely right. Squashed concertinas. Van Morrison. K-meters. Whatever you say...

([i]Turns and flees through opened door, leaving it ajar in his flight[/i]...)

Nurse..! Nurse..?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1370640084' post='2103969']
Yes, Milty. Certainly, Milty. Whatever you say.

([i]Backs slowly towards the door.[/i]..)

Potato bread is wonderful, you're absolutely right. Squashed concertinas. Van Morrison. K-meters. Whatever you say...

([i]Turns and flees through opened door, leaving it ajar in his flight[/i]...)

Nurse..! Nurse..?
[/quote]

Hurhuhahhuorhahuragha!

[Skol303]

Ok y'all, here are some notes I scribbled down while listening to everyone's mixes. I always take a few brief notes while judging which to vote for… it helps me to shortlist my favourites and really think about what I like/dislike about each one. I tend to write more about dislikes than likes - despite me generally being a glass-half-full kinda person! It's just what I note down while listening, so please don't hate me for anything I've said about your mix. It's intended to be useful and we're among friends, so well, yeah… Deal with it

Your opportunity for revenge is to do the same and post some feedback. So there

NB: I mix and listen probably 99% of the time using headphones. Specifically a pair of AKGs. Thought you should know as it helps put my comments into context - especially if you're the opposite and mostly using monitors or other speakers.

[b]A:[/b] Vocal is panned off-centre (to the right), which is weird. Makes it sound lost in the mix and 'oddly' placed - although it's certainly striking! Some nice panning on some of the instruments. But too much reverb throughout - everything sounds distant and 'muddy' in the low mids. Drums sound a bit dry and flat; lack punch.

[b]B:[/b] Nice bass. As with Mix A, too much reverb. Lead vocal sounds lost and distant. I like the fact that the instrumentation has been stripped back and simplified - a bold move. And a good way to make the mix a bit easier. I was tempted to do the same myself! 'Muddy' in the low mids - need some EQ cuts around there. Kick drum sounds ok; the rest is a bit messy. Snare drum in particular is ill-defined - too much 'splay' and not enough 'snap'.

[b]C:[/b] Nice mix. Deep, rich vocal. Great panning and reverb. Good drums. Seems to have lots of automation going on - like how the bass really warms up in the chorus. Nice change of arrangement around 1:50 minutes-ish. Dropping instruments in and out throughout [b][This one got my vote - well done Si!][/b]

[b]D:[/b] Vocal is buried and lost. Muddy in the low-mids. Drums need gating - there's too much of 'bleeding' of sound between the stems, which sounds like it's causing phasing problems (peaks and troughs in volume).

[b]E:[/b] Bass is gigantic! I quite like it. Nice panning and simplicity. However low end generally too boomy because of the bass (probably sounds muffled through speakers?) - it swamps everything including the vocal. Vocal itself is lost in the mix and sounds muffled. Possibly too much reverb as well. Drums are a bit dull and lack definition or snap. Everything sounds very 'middy'.

[b]F: [/b]Nice and clean. Perhaps too much reverb on the vocal (slightly) but otherwise the vocals sound strong. Muddy low end - needs EQ cut. Drums are too heavily gated; there's also too much top end fizz (they sound a bit thin).

[b]G:[/b] Good panning. Loud! Nice vocal. Guitars are too loud in the mix - they drow out the other instruments. Drums are a bit weak-sounding; the snare lacks snap - more of a splat.

[b]H: [/b]Very quiet. Nice mix. Vocal a bit high in the top end (some sibilance issues). Also needs a bit of reverb - too dry. Good mix overall.

[b]I: [/b]WOW! This is fantastic!!! Probably the best mix I've ever… yeah ok, this one was mine. In comparison to others it came over sounding a bit too 'toppy' (high end) and even harsh in places. I ended up destroying the snare in an attempt to make it snap, when I should have embraced the 'splat' and eased it off a little and been a bit more gentle overall… including with the compression (a habit from working with electronica that I'm still wrestling with). I was quite pleased my vocal and thought I'd got the bass / low end worked out ok - which is always the most tricky part using just headphones. I was certainly pleased with getting the votes I did, so cheers if you chose it!

[b]J:[/b] Sounds muffled. Vocal is too dry and the reverb used on it sounds too different to that used on the rest of the track - sounds a bit 'unnatural'. Drums lack punch but not too bad. Can't hear the banjo at all [i][by this time I'd listened to a lot of banjos, so my ears could have been deceiving me!!].[/i]

[b]K:[/b] This one needs work. Very muffled and muddy-sounding. Sounds mono with everything panned down the centre - I'm guessing that actually the stems have all been panned equally left/right (?), causing this effect.

[b]L: [/b]Not bad at all. Panning sounds alright. Guitars are a bit loud. Vocal has a little too much reverb. Drums sound a bit too forward in the mix - a bit dry and maybe even lacking reverb - but are quite well mixed too. Fairly clean-sounding. Not too muddy.

Despite that wall of mostly negativity - sorry - I thought everyone had a good stab at it this month… enough for me to listen to the track a dozen or so times in a row, which is some achievement! Taking all of the mixes together, I think some of the most common issues that need work are:

[b]1) EQ'ing.[/b] Particularly avoiding things building up in the low-mids - broadly speaking between 150-500Hz or thereabouts. For the newcomers to mixing among us… the way to avoid this is to carefully EQ each instrument/track of your mix individually. Start by adding a high-pass filter (HPF) or shelving EQ to the track in question. Gradually increase the cut-off frequency until you hear it change the sound of the instrument - then dial it back a little, so that the instrument sounds (pretty much) the same as it did before you started EQ'ing. This helps to clear out a lot of unused low frequencies, which can add up across each track/channel of your mix and result in a muffled or 'muddy' sound overall. It might sound like a chore tweaking each channel with an EQ… but welcome to mixing. You signed up for this, sucker!!

…another thing I find useful is scooping out the low-mids with a bell-shaped EQ. I normally start around 400Hz with a generous cut (- 6db or so) and move the centre frequency up/down until the sound becomes 'less muddy' (difficult to articulate this - but you'll get the gist of it!). When scooping the low-mids, I usually find it's best to cut shallow and broad, rather than deep and narrow. For example: I usually cut around 400Hz by around 2-4 db with a Q setting ('steepness' of the cut/boost) of around 1 - 1.5. Obviously those aren't some magic numbers that will work on every mix…! But it's a starting point to play with.

[b]2) Reverb. [/b]Just lay off it a little!! 'Verb is one of tools that's often best used subtly rather than like sledgehammer. It's very tempting to dial it in hard because it can (deceptively) make things sound good in isolation - particularly vocals - but it's also very easy to make things disappear off into the distance of your mix… or in extreme cases, make your mix sound like it's being played loud in the room next door, rather than in the room you happen to be in. Which is never good.

Now bring on the next one! Cheers comrades

[lurksalot]

Cheers Paul
I was B , and a bit surprised on the vocal and reverb comments , the mix was pretty dry of reverb as I am normally guilty of washing all over the thing , but yes while I did strip out a lot of the mud , the bass is a touch boomy even though it has well defined mids , ah well , thanks any way ,
Just tidying up my notes (for what they are worth) and will post them tommorrow.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1370646755' post='2104064']...[b]A:[/b] Vocal is panned off-centre (to the right), which is weird. Makes it sound lost in the mix and 'oddly' placed - although it's certainly striking! Some nice panning on some of the instruments. But too much reverb throughout - everything sounds distant and 'muddy' in the low mids. Drums sound a bit dry and flat; lack punch....
[/quote]

Thanks for that, it's interesting. The lead was panned deliberately, of course, with the BV the other side. I'm not afraid of setting the stage that way in general (in live gigs, the lead is often off-centre...). I have, however, imbalance hearing, and have probably a different 'stereo' perception to most of you, and maybe misjudged the degree of offset from centre. Striking..? I'll take that as a compliment, however it was meant..!
I'm mixing with a very modest domestic headset, so the dosage of reverb and eq is a very indelicate affair. Subtle changes are completely lost on me, so too much is a fair comment. Guilty as charged, milud, although it doesn't sound like that to me. I'm not even sure that I used reverb much at all; I'll listen again...
As for the drums... If the fellow had been playing Camco drums, there would be no problem..! However, I didn't consider them (nor the bass, for that matter...) to be the 'star of the show', and so didn't try to bring them out especially. My thinking was more respecting the 'genre', where d & b are very often in the back seat; supportive without assertion. That's my excuse, anyway, and I'm sticking to it..!
Thanks for your comments; I'll try to keep all these things in mind next time around (but at my age, y'know, the ol' grey cells aren't what they wuz... )

[lurksalot]

Dad , I had a thought the other day, when checking your mix , why not flip your cans round to get a quick assesment of the balance .

[Skol303]

^ Cheers guys. Like I said, don't take any of my criticisms to heart... it's easier for me to note what I dislike when listening to each mix (dislike is probably too strong a term - 'like least' is better). And don't forget I'm no 'pro' myself! So my opinions aren't worth gold, they're just another person's take on it.

I remember reading somewhere that most mix engineers tend to find their musical 'feet' somewhere around the 100th mix mark, so we've probably all got some way to go before then

Keep on truckin'.

Paul

[Dad3353]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1370648668' post='2104080']
Dad , I had a thought the other day, when checking your mix , why not flip your cans round to get a quick assesment of the balance .
[/quote]

You mean like... Take them off..? ...and listen the [i]wrong way round[/i]..? Wouldn't that nullify the guarantee..?


No, seriously, I'd just never thought of it; too easy. Thumb well and truly up.

Any other 'instant hits'..? No prizes, just kudos (although with an old duffer such as myself, shouldn't be difficult; I'm an easy target..!)

Come on then, let's be 'avin' yuh...

[lurksalot]

My notes about the mixes ,all are to be taken with a pinch of the proverbial and may say more about my naivety than ability to mix so here goes

A unbalanced, to low bv , vocal to low . (I have already bounced this one off dad)

B I thought it was awesome , a lovely reduction of the bass sustain and EQ made it obviously a DB , referencing maybe should be against a DB rather than a generic country track, I had the vision in my head of a DB and that may have coloured my listening . I was happy with the vocal, maybe a touch dry , but not a lot , and the detail in the drums and cymbals cut through nicely with the keys making an appearance , so , yeah if some one can burst my bubble I would welcome it . ed ..noted before the feedback guys

C I thought too reverby , like warehouse with a low ceiling , bass was boomy and lacked detail no tinking ride, there is a lovely ride deatail at about 2.20 and lots of mixes missed it.

D vocal too low, snare a bit masked and a touch jangly with too much banjo masking the tinking ride but near a vote

E bass a touch boomy , but got my vote as it was close on the refernce stuff I used . Well done

F too much reverb on vocal , undistiguished bass ,light snare ok again already discussed with Twigman

G a bit tinny on the BV and a lack of bass tone , no tinking ride but near a vote

H BV a bit to low and bass a bit buried, muddy bottom and heavy kick in parts with a slightly smothered vocal

I vocal a bit thick but far too much processing on the drums, gate maybe , an unnatural sound to me .

J Light yet muddy real bass tone and vocal too reverby, tooo much twang , missing loads of detail

K mixed through a blanket , it completely lacked clarity and now that I know whos it is , the gung ho approach shows, it is probably like mine sounded when I started, so stick at it …

L far too much reverb, everything just sounds recorded in a different county , no blend .

In summary , my summary and mix notes need as much pulling apart as my mix, but with my limited skills my conclusions in general would be lots of lost detail like bass tone and the ride tinking , the bass needed volume automation to keep it consistent in some of the run downs as it got lost in most mixes, a bit too much twang and reverb on show for my taste, but so interesting to hear everyone elses take on it
Great fun, and can't wait for the next one .

Kev

Edited June 8, 2013 by lurksalot

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1370676816' post='2104199']
K mixed through a blanket , it completely lacked clarity and now that I know whos it is , the gung ho approach shows, it is probably like mine sounded when I started, so stick at it …
[/quote]

I swear it sounded different after I uploaded it to sound cloud! But everything is very muddy and unclarified, I wouldn't argue that it wasn't! My hearing is still very sensitive to high frequency noises, and it doesn't like them, so I think I tried to tune a lot of them out, without knowing what the final result would be, but it honestly wasn't that bad when I was mixing it! The next one WILL be better, I'm determined about that

[lurksalot]

this is all new to me aswell Milty , you will make massive steps on the first 3 or 4 mixes , and each time more things will fall into place , I am only just starting to understand the advice that was given to me 3 months ago . but learning to listen is way up on the list of things to start with. one thing I have really picked up on , is that when you mess with parts the sound of the actual part does not have to sound full and awesome on its own , you can strip out with EQ loads of the sound spectrum of any one part and it might sound odd, but when you put it in the mix , whats left of it has its own space, can be heard and doesn't interfere sonically with other parts so much.
the difficult bit is working out which frequencies of the parts identify the characteristics of the part , and that is one of the next stages for me, so that I can get a feel for what it should sound like and subsequently how to achieve it .
it is really brain hurting sometimes , but well worth the effort.

[Twigman]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1370646755' post='2104064']


Now bring on the next one!
[/quote]

Anyone got any reggae stems???

That would be interesting

[Twigman]

How about this one from the same page as the uncle dad thing?
http://cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm#Arise

[lurksalot]

I'm game.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1370685072' post='2104311']
How about this one from the same page as the uncle dad thing?
[url="http://cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm#Arise"]http://cambridge-mt....s-mtk.htm#Arise[/url]
[/quote]

Well the first one we did was more than a bit reggae inspired to be honest. I was really hoping for some electronica or EDM (there are a whole different set of issues with getting this stuff sounding amazing, lots off differetn techniques to apply - pumping compression is a very good thing in EDM for instance) or something with a big horn section really (funk, ska or big band I dont care which, balancing horns in a mix can be tricky and is not something people get to do every day).

But if everyone else wants to do a reggae/dub thing then we can go that way....

[lowdown]

I noticed some action Cinematic tracks up on that site...................
A whole new ball game as far as panaramic sound staging,
width, height and depth are concerned. Not carving out loads of bottom end,
and very careful use of panning, comps and eq's, while still keeping a multitude of dynamics,
and Orchestral Instrument placement very much still intact......


Garry

[MiltyG565]

Go on, throw us into the deep end, Simon. Pick something tricky

[Dad3353]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1370775607' post='2105292']
Go on, throw us into the deep end, Simon. Pick something tricky
[/quote]

~~~~\o/~~~~

Gloug... Gloug... Gloub...

[lurksalot]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1370769819' post='2105213']
I noticed some action Cinematic tracks up on that site...................
A whole new ball game as far as panaramic sound staging,
width, height and depth are concerned. Not carving out loads of bottom end,
and very careful use of panning, comps and eq's, while still keeping a multitude of dynamics,
and Orchestral Instrument placement very much still intact......


Garry
[/quote]

yum yum , I will have a go at anything

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1370777982' post='2105340']
~~~~\o/~~~~

Gloug... Gloug... Gloub...
[/quote]

Yes indeed, but where's the fun in picking something particularly easy? (Not that I find any of it easy; I know less about it all than all of you )

[xgsjx]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1370600847' post='2103210']
[b]Mix L[/b]
Thats another odd reverb choice, small hall or chamer, and buckets of it.

Reverb is a weird thing, if you can hear it (on a lead vocal) then its too much. If you cant hear it until you turn it off and then realise what you are missing, then you are about right IME.

A good reverb is hard to hear until its gone I think. Then you wonder how you lived without it.

Also the BV should be a small step behind the lead, to do this a little more reverb, and a little less top end matched to a lightly lower level will do this fiune, but if your lead vocal is swamped in reverb, then there is no behind him to place the BV.

Good drums though, if a little loud perhaps?
[/quote]

That's all taken on board.

Having another listen, I was a bit heavy with the reverb on the lead vocal. I maybe should have just put reverb on the backing vocal & left the rest dry?
The only things I have to listen to things on at the moment are the iMac's speakers & a set of JVC earphones (which are crap compared to the Senny's that a cat chewed up) & being deaf doesn't help.

I'm looking forward to the next one now!

I have a reggae(ish) track. I'll try & find the stems, but I'm not sure if I still have them (someone has them on a disc). Here's the song itself...

[url="http://www.reverbnation.com/frigorifico/song/1469550-criminal"]http://www.reverbnat...469550-criminal[/url]

The song is called Criminal.

Edited June 9, 2013 by xgsjx

[butlerk02]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1370766506' post='2105173']
Well the first one we did was more than a bit reggae inspired to be honest. I was really hoping for some electronica or EDM (there are a whole different set of issues with getting this stuff sounding amazing, lots off differetn techniques to apply - pumping compression is a very good thing in EDM for instance) or something with a big horn section really (funk, ska or big band I dont care which, balancing horns in a mix can be tricky and is not something people get to do every day).

But if everyone else wants to do a reggae/dub thing then we can go that way....
[/quote]

I'd really like to have a go at some EDM too. Never done it before so would be up for the challenge!!

[Skol303]

Some nice ideas here for the next mix-off!

I like Garry's suggestion of a cinematic score, as well Twig and xgsjx's idea of a reggae tune, and Si/butler's suggestion of some electronic dance music. I'd be happy with any of those genres myself.