Arco and Pizz learning options?

[Owencf]

After getting started on the Double bass and only finding a Tutor who favors classical Arco in the area which i live

Do you think my playing the same music pizz would affect my learning
I am aware that the idea is to also train my right hand to do as its told with a bow.

your thoughts.
Cheers.

[marvin spangles]

Learning classical arco is invauable. Wish I'd started that way . A good technical basis takes a lot of the wasted trial and error time out of practice.
Check out the vid below for a good approach to Jazz pizz. Playing the same music pizz is fine but do work with the bow. It will really help your intonation.

http://youtu.be/IvbNifnccis

[Bilbo]

Go for it. You can nail a lot of the pizz stuff yourself. Arco is a much tougher nut to crack without help and it will help you nail the scourge of double bass playing; intonation.

[MandShef]

It's a shame you can't find a tutor more in tune with the style you want to play. Must be frustrating for you. Keep looking!

You could play the pieces pizz, but you may not get as much out of it in terms of improvement. The benefit of arco playing is that those notes sustain for longer, making any inaccuracies in intonation glaringly obvious, so persevering with it could really improve your intonation, even if that's not to be your main style of playing.

Hope you're not getting fed up with it. You never know, you may grow to love it once you've mastered it!

[fatback]

Oh dear, I have to disagree, much as I respect Mr. Spangles and Bilbo.

Taking on arco too early nearly made me quit. Firstly, there's something fundamentally unwise about learning left and right hands at the same time. No. 1 learning principle is to separate tasks out. A couple of years working with left hand and pizz, and now bowing seems much more straightforward.

Secondly, if you want to get gigging fast, arco will slow your progress down and seriously delay your debut.

On the intonation front, I perfectly accept that arco will be a great help. But to learn to play pizz in tune is not hard if you use a clip-on tuner on the bridge. Not always, just for checking. Good ear training too.

None of the above probably applies if you're twelve years old and don't have a band nagging you to gig the thing.

Edited April 10, 2013 by fatback

[Owencf]

aye ive been swapping when my hand gets tired or sore (correct hand technique required, Im working on it)
I keep getting told to hold it less like a pick and more like a light fragile object haha breaking the habit is taking alot of effort.

I have noticed that any bum notes sound really fricking obvious when playing arco, though my neighbours havent complained yet
but it is allowing me to explore the fingerboard and train my ear a bitty better.

umm i dont plan on gigging any time soon...ever, very shy.

only picked the Double bass up because of a dare and i like the sound of it.
Certainly aint getting fed up with it i think my Wife is jealous im playing with it more than her.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Owencf

[fatback]

[quote name='Owencf' timestamp='1365600476' post='2041624']
aye ive been swapping when my hand gets tired or sore (correct hand technique required, Im working on it)
I keep getting told to hold it less like a pick and more like a light fragile object haha breaking the habit is taking alot of effort.

I have noticed that any bum notes sound really fricking obvious when playing arco, though my neighbours havent complained yet
but it is allowing me to explore the fingerboard and train my ear a bitty better.

umm i dont plan on gigging any time soon...ever, very shy.

only picked the Double bass up because of a dare and i like the sound of it.
[/quote]

If you're in no hurry, then arco is as good a thing to be doing as any, I guess. You might find the tuner on the bridge trick very helpful. Some will hate the idea, but for ear training it can't be beaten imo, as you do need a reference, especially for notes other than 4ths and 5ths.

Oh go on, plan on gigging. It's seriously good fun and, if you're shy, a great instrument to hide behind.

Edited April 10, 2013 by fatback

[fatgoogle]

Id recommend sticking with arco, it will help your intonation and playing in a way that you can hear playing pizz. Id also say no to having a tuner on a bridge, you'll start to rely on it. Only use it to make sure the instrument is in tune and to check the odd note if you really need to. Otherwise through practicing you'll also be training your ears to hear if you in tune or not.

I like to break things down into 20 minute blocks when im learning stuff. So possibly spend 20 mins with the bow on a piece and then swap for 20 mins to pizz and then move onto the next piece.

[FLoydElgar]

Hey, It's wonderful to see people picking up the bow!

A bit of info -

Intonation doesn't extend from the bow its all from a solid understanding and dedication to the left hand... Which requires hours and hours of time and care to have "good intonation". Therefore, regardless of you playing with a bow or fingers (pizz), it won't make any difference with "being in tune" or not. A good solid left hand technique and a understanding of the mechanics behind the double bass will excel you're learning. Now, I'll back up what I'm saying with a theory... If you pluck the G string on the double bass, its going to sing "G". Then play "G" with the bow, the "G" will still be the same, but it will be more refined and precise with tone and sustain etc... But regards to the intonation, it's the same and it doesn't matter what tool you use in playing the double bass... So if you play "A" (Plucked) on the g string, but it's flat; by using the bow - won't correct the intonation... A shift in the left hand will and then checking it against the piano and then a tuner if you feel that you are not certain.
Using the Bow will help you hear what note you are playing with more clarity. But, clarity isn't intonation.

Just thought I'd add that in and let you make your own decision in what you need/want to do.
Message me if you got any questions or don't understand what I've just said...

All the best with your double bass endeavours.
-F

Edited April 10, 2013 by FLoydElgar

[ubassman]

[quote name='fatgoogle' timestamp='1365629824' post='2042205']

I like to break things down into 20 minute blocks when im learning stuff. So possibly spend 20 mins with the bow on a piece and then swap for 20 mins to pizz and then move onto the next piece.
[/quote]

+1 on that. The technique of bowing is a study in its own right ...and so is the left hand. They both warrant separate attention but the goal is that they combine seamlessly . Some things just suddenly slot into place using a bow ...others with pizz. Good luck with it all !

[philparker]

I've only been playing DB for 6 months now and like you will probably prefer pizz mainly, but could only find a teacher playing arco (from an orchestral background). So I've been learning 80 - 90% arco with a teacher and I've been doing pizz by myself from vids and books except for two pieces on the ABRSM itinerary.

I've also taken a lot of advice from members on this site and now looking back - I wouldn't change a thing. Yes, it is correct that I can't or couldn't gig as quickly (and I do intend to gig more with DB rather than EB when I get the chance). I was fortunate to read music well before I started and it has been enhanced by all the classical pieces I have learnt and continue to play.

I think the biggest advantage has been the development and correction of my bowing technique, that I would have never got just learning pizz,that I can always go back to when I need to - as well, of course, as already mentioned improvement and development of intonation. I now quite like playing arco and would be just as comfortable joining a little quartet or chamber music-style ensemble.

[Hector]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1365600353' post='2041620']
Oh dear, I have to disagree, much as I respect Mr. Spangles and Bilbo.

Taking on arco too early nearly made me quit. Firstly, there's something fundamentally unwise about learning left and right hands at the same time. No. 1 learning principle is to separate tasks out. A couple of years working with left hand and pizz, and now bowing seems much more straightforward.

Secondly, if you want to get gigging fast, arco will slow your progress down and seriously delay your debut.

On the intonation front, I perfectly accept that arco will be a great help. But to learn to play pizz in tune is not hard if you use a clip-on tuner on the bridge. Not always, just for checking. Good ear training too.

None of the above probably applies if you're twelve years old and don't have a band nagging you to gig the thing.
[/quote]

I'm going to respectfully disagree in turn, and hope I won't cause offence in doing so. I stress that it's just my opinion and I'm just some bloke. Had a period of my life where I plaedy pizz only, and desperately regretted it after seeing huge benefits in my playing (95% pizz gigs) after a return to the bow. Thus I have some thoughts gleaned from my personal experiences with the dark art of the bass, but they're just that. It's personal to the player in many ways.

Playing arco from the start may be a steep learning curve (what isn't about picking up DB to start with?!), but it will be better in the long run. If you're not playing primarily arco gigs, there's no need to be Rabbath-level on the hairystick, but it definitely helps with other aspects of playing.

Practising scales with the bow leaves your intonation very exposed - especially when playing over a drone. I'd actually advocate this instead of using a tuner, as that's not proper ear training. It's eye training. I see learning to play in tune as associating muscular control with what you hear. Having a information from a tuner, I believe, hinders the formation of this link. (This is also why I think you should learn tunes without using a real book etc, as it should be about ears and hands only and my best playing undoubtedly comes when my nose is out of the page.)

Arco playing also helps with left hand strength, best benefits when playing scales very slowly. So much of tone production really comes from the left hand.

I'm also of the opinion that regular playing in arco opens up the sound of a bass (at least it's what I noticed after coming back to arco). Obviously this is very hard to test empirically, can't really extract it from other benefits like my left hand. But it does maybe tie in with the idea that basses as instruments tend to age well and mature in sound over the years - I think somehow arco aids this process and has more of an effect in the short term.


That's my 2p take it or leave it!

[ubassman]

Always tune by ear but incredibly useful to check with a tuner as the bass can be pretty unforgiving and tough to get precisely in tune by ear when you first start out.

Its much easier to get in tune by ear with a higher pitched note and a trick I use is to tune with harmonics. I find the position of the G note on the D string ( 5 chromatic notes up from the nut - and same note as the open G ) but then play it as a harmonic. You get the identical harmonic playing the 7th chromatic note up on the G string ( play the harmonic over the D note on the G string ). Its the same harmonic for both strings and simply compare the notes adjusting the D string to tune with the G . I always use a bow with this process playing quite close to the bridge, and once my G and D are sorted, I use the perfectly tuned D string (7th note harmonic ) and compare it with the A string (5th note harmonic), then finally work on tuning the E string.

Reason I say to check with a tuner is that if you have strings that are slightly 'out' on their tuning ( the A is a tad flat than it should be, the D is a tad sharp and so is G for example ), the fingers of the left hand will make adjustments to compensate. Essentially you want to learn muscle memory for each note and if your tuning isn't spot on each time then you will have a harder time 'breaking through'. I pretty much tune by ear all the time with harmonics but occasionally will go back to a tuner just to check that my ear is spot on ( thankfully it usually is but I have to say that the before I used harmonics to tune it was more hit and miss ) ! .

[Owencf]

Thank you all for the continuing input.
I am finding them informative keep em coming.

[fatback]

Have to disagree about the tuner. I'm not saying use it as a continuous reference (I wouldn't be looking down there anyhow) just use it as an occasional check. So it's not eye training, it reinforces the judgement of your ears.

Like with any training, you've got to have feedback to tell you when you're right or wrong. Yes a drone will do as a reference, if you can stand it, but even that's not too helpful apart from 4ths and 5ths.

I totally agree that good technique is everything. Of course.

[ubassman]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1365688486' post='2042943']
Have to disagree about the tuner. I'm not saying use it as a continuous reference (I wouldn't be looking down there anyhow) just use it as an occasional check. So it's not eye training, it reinforces the judgement of your ears.
[/quote]

+1

[marvin spangles]

Looks like you've got a lot of helpful advice there. Tuner, arco drones etc. all valid and useful ... at the end of the day a good technique and attention to your intonation is the basic mantra here. Good luck and enjoy.

[Hector]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1365688486' post='2042943']
Have to disagree about the tuner. I'm not saying use it as a continuous reference (I wouldn't be looking down there anyhow) just use it as an occasional check. So it's not eye training, it reinforces the judgement of your ears.

Like with any training, you've got to have feedback to tell you when you're right or wrong. Yes a drone will do as a reference, if you can stand it, but even that's not too helpful apart from 4ths and 5ths.

I totally agree that good technique is everything. Of course.
[/quote]

I use a tuner to get the open strings in, for sure on gigs where I might not get quiet time to tune to a reference pitch. But beyond that I'm not sold.

A continuous reference would be more helpful, as you can fine tune every note in real time. A drone would provide feedback on intonation in this way. It's directly training intonation using just your ears and hands, no need to mix this process up by involving staring at a tuner every now and then. Why would drones not help you with anything other than 4ths or 5ths? Using them you develop your ear and recognise intervals. Playing with good intonation of course has lots to do with muscle memory, but it has just as much to do with your own internal sense of pitch and your ability to have in your head the sound of the note you want. Really playing in tune is more involved than electric bass where you can just chuck your fingers in the right place, on upright you need to really clearly hear the notes you're trying to hit.

But anyway, I've said my bit and am perfectly happy for us to agree to disagree.

[ubassman]

I know a couple of players who meticulously use a tuner as a tool to drive precision into muscle memory - theory is that you might as well use scientific reading to assist the fingers learn correct interval spacing - rather than having not so accurate intervals committed to muscle memory ...I have tried it and it sure works to develop a really sharp left hand !

Edited April 11, 2013 by ubassman

[lowlandtrees]

Been playing DB a couple of months. Still can't find a teacher in Stirling so been very much realiant on BC, Youtube etc This is a very interesting discussion. How do most folk get a drone?

[ubassman]

Try a G octave scale rising on the G string :-

You play both the open D string ( the drone ) under the open G to start with.

Keeping the D string sounding, work your way up the G string

Scale:- G A B C D E F# G ( Good to do this top G as a harmonic to check that you are actually playing a G )
Drone:- D D D D D D D D - G ( ending with a G the E string rounds the scale off)

You can try variations such as staggering the notes i.e. D,G,D,A,D,B etc
GAB, ABC, BCD, CDE etc

Edited April 12, 2013 by ubassman

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1365695670' post='2043114']
Why would drones not help you with anything other than 4ths or 5ths? Using them you develop your ear and recognise intervals.
[/quote]

I've found those to be vastly more subjective and where I'm most often sloppy. I think it's to do with 'just intonation' vs 'taste'. Where you'd pitch thirds, sixths, sevenths should really depend on whether you're going up or down (which means checking with a tuner is probably misleading), but it it imposes some kind of discipline at least.

I like to have a reason for things, even if I'm wrong.

[FLoydElgar]

lol so much information that conflicts each other! I hope people who are reading these comments can make their minds up on how they want to approach it!

[Owencf]

im reading them and bouncing them around
the wonders of the internet, so much information

[stingrayPete1977]

I have been having a cheeky read too I am getting OK with the bow now actually but my duff wrist is causing me grief again