That 'All-valve' bounce...

[brensabre79]

Thanks Pow,

The SC PA head I was going through in the studio was a 120, and if it was 'bouncing' like that (which thanks to this thread I now know is 'sagging' at max output) at practice volume it's not gonna cut it at a big gig.

I'm going to be lucky to find a SC200 head aren't I?

[Highfox]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1366111739' post='2048376']
.

I'm currently running a 600w Genz Benz, and often hit the limiter on a gig,
[/quote]

Wow! If your doing that at 4 ohms with a decent cab you must be loud!. I've never had to go past halfway with the GB 600w heads I've had-

[alexclaber]

The Genz limiter light comes on a long time before the amp actually clips - there's another 6dB of input before that happens.

If you want an all-valve sound without the weight, try to find a Warwick Quadruplet preamp. This has a tiny valve power amp and output transformer running a dummy load, and then a low current signal is taken from that to the preamp's output. They did heads too, which used the same preamp and then had a powerful solidstate power stage. I think there are some other designs like this but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

[franzbassist]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1366116694' post='2048480']
If you want an all-valve sound without the weight, try to find a Warwick Quadruplet preamp. This has a tiny valve power amp and output transformer running a dummy load, and then a low current signal is taken from that to the preamp's output. They did heads too, which used the same preamp and then had a powerful solidstate power stage. I think there are some other designs like this but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
[/quote]

SWR Interstellar Overdrive?

To the OP, depending on geography, you are welcome to come and try my Markbass TTE500 if you like.

[brensabre79]

Thanks again for comments.
Highfox, yes quite loud, but Genz lacks a lot of the weight I'm after so I've always got the LF boost on and the BASS control around 2 or 3 o'clock. The cab is decent, very decent, and handles it well, I will not be changing my cab ever, but the amp lacks the weight and the 'bounce' I was on about.

Alex, thanks for the tip - they don't make these any more?

Walbassist, thanks very much for the offer, but I'm near Brighton - I might see if GAK has a TTE500 I am intrigued, does it 'feel' like a valve amp? It's all about the feel for me. I can get any amp to sound pretty close to how I want with my Sansamp, although one that sounds good from the outset is of course a bonus

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Highfox]

That's fair enough Brens.. I never engaged the LF/ Boost on the Shuttle and on the Streamliner I had the bass cut to about 10pm.
Good luck with your search, knowing how you want it to sound is half the battle fought imo.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1366113812' post='2048413']
Thanks Pow,

The SC PA head I was going through in the studio was a 120, and if it was 'bouncing' like that (which thanks to this thread I now know is 'sagging' at max output) at practice volume it's not gonna cut it at a big gig.

I'm going to be lucky to find a SC200 head aren't I?
[/quote]

With loud enough cab, the 120 is definitely giggable loud, but might depend on the power supply being up to snuff, most of them have old degrading caps that don't give the power they used to, all the ones I've used/sold have rebuilt power supplies, so not an issue. The Tame use a 120 with a Hartke 8x10 for bass, I've gigged one with a Barefaced super 15.

[quote name='Pow_22' timestamp='1366112676' post='2048394']
I had a SC120 and would say it wasnt loud enough for me. Tried through various combinations of cabs but against two guitards and a reasonably loud drummer it just turned to a fuzzy mush. Lovely tone at quieter volumes tho just didnt have the balls at louder levels. Ive always wanted to try a SC200
[/quote]

Sounds like power supply needs sorting. Te amount of mids you can get from the active eq should knife through a mix if raw volume isn't happening.

[Ghost_Bass]

Mesa Walkabout? Is 300W @ 4Ohms enough?

[brensabre79]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1366120671' post='2048562']
Just a thought - the DHA VT1 EQ has, as well as a drive control, a control that gives you a clean op-amp boost for extra output. It uses both gain stages of a ECC83 valve. Check out the blurb - it may be of interest. I had one for a while and it does the job well.
[/quote]
Thanks Discreet, I've got a VT1 (non EQ) Bass Drive - and I agree it does have a little bit of that feel to it, and it goes a long way but does not have the weight of a 1000lb rubber ball bouncing off the floor right behind you thats what I'm after...

Ghost, thanks but probably not, as its a solid state power stage and half what I'm used to...

Oli, how do you think a 120 would stack up with my Super 12? Do you think it could give my Genz the fear?
Also, does anyone make one that is narrower? Those Marshall style heads are too wide for my S12

[discreet]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1366127093' post='2048709']
...does not have the weight of a 1000lb rubber ball bouncing off the floor right behind you that's what I'm after...
[/quote]

In that case try a TTE500 (or TTE800...) and if that doesn't float your boat, you'll need an all-valve amp!

[brensabre79]

Thanks discreet, already intend to! I hope it does float my boat because it looks great and its a good price at £750 if it works like it says

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1366116694' post='2048480']
If you want an all-valve sound without the weight, try to find a Warwick Quadruplet preamp. This has a tiny valve power amp and output transformer running a dummy load, and then a low current signal is taken from that to the preamp's output. They did heads too, which used the same preamp and then had a powerful solidstate power stage. I think there are some other designs like this but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
[/quote]

The MESA Walkabout... and it sounds gorgeous t'boot. Some say it's the tubiest hybrid, and IME I have to agree.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1366127093' post='2048709']
Oli, how do you think a 120 would stack up with my Super 12? Do you think it could give my Genz the fear?
Also, does anyone make one that is narrower? Those Marshall style heads are too wide for my S12
[/quote]

Try one. A good one. Like one I rebuilt, not a clapped out one. I have actually run out for the moment, but got some incoming to work on. The Slave 120 power amp is Super 15 width, won't get narrower than that. Could rebox a 120 to be a bit narrower. No massive point though, just deal with funny looking rig.

[Guest bassman7755]

I dont think theres any big mystery. Valve amp power sections have a much lower damping factor than solid state ones. What this means in practice is that the speaker cone will continue to move after the amp "thinks" its finished trying to move it (or stop it from moving). Its one of the reasons valve amps are often paired with closed-back cabinets.

If you really wanted to you could probably induce a similar effect by putting a small series resistance in your amp->speaker connection but you never get anything for free - you would lose definition in the bottom end.

[Mr. Foxen]

Modern speakers are plenty damped all on their own. Modern like not 1930s. If damping factor was an issue, cabs would sound significantly different depending on if they are wired in series or parallel. [url="http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/SeriesSpeaker.pdf"]http://www.cartchunk...riesSpeaker.pdf[/url]

Some barefaced specific stuff: http://basschat.co.uk/topic/13344-old-barefaced-news-see-our-website-for-the-latest-news/page__st__80__p__389884#entry389884

Edited April 17, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[Beer of the Bass]

On the width thing - I had a Carlsbro 100 watt PA which was 50cm wide - the same as a Super 12. Plenty loud for my needs too - I never had to turn it up to the point where it started to sound dirty at a gig, although my band may be less loud than some as our guitarists both use 1x12" valve combos.

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366157081' post='2049162']
Modern speakers are plenty damped all on their own. Modern like not 1930s. If damping factor was an issue, cabs would sound significantly different depending on if they are wired in series or parallel. [url="http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/SeriesSpeaker.pdf"]http://www.cartchunk...riesSpeaker.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

That article was published in 2000, forty years after valve technology went the way of the dodo for most people. He wasn't talking about valve amps.

[brensabre79]

OK I tried a TTE500 today, and whilst I can see what people mean about it being a convincing valve emulator, it does not have the bounce. And, actually i didn't like it that much either. The compressor was good, but overall it just didn't have the weight.

Which is a shame really because I was hopeful about that one.

The music store chappy did tell me about a new MESA amp that was coming out with a valve power stage but in a smaller light(ish) box, but he had no more info on it and said its not been released yet.

Edit: Just found them online, It's a [url="http://www.gearhounds.com/mesa-boogie-prodigy-bass-head.aspx"]Mesa Bass Prodigy[/url] and looks pretty good

Edited April 17, 2013 by brensabre79

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1366192467' post='2049350']
That article was published in 2000, forty years after valve technology went the way of the dodo for most people. He wasn't talking about valve amps.
[/quote]

Correct, it is an article about speakers, and how damping factor is irrelevant, so being a valve amplifier is thus irrelevant. That is the whole point.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1366160162' post='2049170']
On the width thing - I had a Carlsbro 100 watt PA which was 50cm wide - the same as a Super 12. Plenty loud for my needs too - I never had to turn it up to the point where it started to sound dirty at a gig, although my band may be less loud than some as our guitarists both use 1x12" valve combos.
[/quote]

I have one of these in my to do pile actually. PM if interested and I can prioritise it.

[franzbassist]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1366205638' post='2049576']
I tried a TTE500 today, and whilst I can see what people mean about it being a convincing valve emulator, it does not have the bounce. And, actually i didn't like it that much either. The compressor was good, but overall it just didn't have the weight.
[/quote]

Mine came alive when I dropped some old Mullards in it - much warmer and fatter tone, yet without any boominess.

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366205817' post='2049579']
Correct, it is an article about speakers, and how damping factor is irrelevant, so being a valve amplifier is thus irrelevant. That is the whole point.
[/quote]
At the risk of stating the obvious, you can't prove a point about valve amps by quoting an article that has nothing to do with valve amps.

[Mr. Foxen]

The point is all about damping of speakers. It is already done by the speaker, so the damping properties of an amp are not relevant. Hence damping factor is not a relevant consideration when it comes sound coming from speakers. If, as you appear to want, you ignore the speaker, then it also doesn't matter, since without the speaker, there is no sound to present concerns with regards to damping factor.

Same way I'll cheerfully assert that the colour of an amp has no relevance to its sound properties due to the total lack of references to the effect of an amplfiier's colour in any acoustic engineering texts.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[VTypeV4]

Surely if damping factor of the speaker was entirely controlled from the amp, speaker companies wouldn't concern themselves with CMS, VAS and QMS in their T/S specs as it would all be significantly different for each and every amp?