In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[EBS_freak]

Nothing beats customs but if you don't have problems with universals and don't want to throw yourself into the world of custom IEMs, the Shure range is actually pretty good. You have to pay serious money (circa 1k+) on IEMs to get as good as a great set of on ears (width of soundstage is always cited as a problem) - but not many people want to sport the Paul Gilbert look on stage!

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424003947' post='2691361']
Woodinblack - Drop tonyf a line. He uses LD systems stuff (not entirely sure which one) that is a lot cheaper than the Shure and Sennheiser monitoring systems mentioned. Maybe for a little more money you can stretch to the MEI 1. Anyway, ask Tony, I've never heard one - we keen meaning to have a shoot out but various situations have prevented so far!
[/quote]

Well, the MEI 1 isn't much more expensive, if it is that much better. Thanks for the info

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424014353' post='2691520']
Nothing beats customs but if you don't have problems with universals and don't want to throw yourself into the world of custom IEMs, the Shure range is actually pretty good. You have to pay serious money (circa 1k+) on IEMs to get as good as a great set of on ears (width of soundstage is always cited as a problem) - but not many people want to sport the Paul Gilbert look on stage!
[/quote]

I think ultimately I will always wonder if I should have upgraded to customs in the first place and thus the likes of ACS will be on the list. - I've asked on my FB page for experiences too, I guess I wanted to know if 535's with some moulds would do the job.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1424017627' post='2691563']
I think ultimately I will always wonder if I should have upgraded to customs in the first place and thus the likes of ACS will be on the list. - I've asked on my FB page for experiences too, I guess I wanted to know if 535's with some moulds would do the job.
[/quote]

No.... don't go the 535 moulds route...!! it's a half way house. If you are going to pay for moulds and 535s, seriously, just go custom. The difference is way big. I tried telling Tonyf this... he ended up going to customs in the end anyway after going the Shure with moulds route. Listen to me on this one!

Also, read through the thread for opinions on ACS. They are OK - but ultimately, there are far better options for bass players, for lot less money. I have the live pack with a set of T1s. They are OK, but I'd rather take a better monitor with a decent aux feed over the T1s with the live pack (this all depends on the desk of course). For example, check out a 1964 quad. [url="http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/iems/1964-ears-1964-Qi-quad-driver-custom-in-ear-monitors.php"]http://www.custom-in...ar-monitors.php[/url] Seriously, spend half an hour or so reading through this whole thread. I reckon it gives you the best information that you can find on the net.

You are looking 260 + 130ish (factoring in impressions cost) for a set of Shure 535s with sleeves. 110 quid short of a full on custom (you can normally wangle free imps) with the treble, mid and dual lows that you really need. I know it's 110 quid but the difference between custom and universals is night and day and easily worth 110 for the comfort and perfect fit which gives you the uber clarity and thumping bass that you don't get with an ill-fitting universal. They will never fall out when you are performing... and above all, they are as cool as....

...and you can't put a price on that.

Edited February 15, 2015 by EBS_freak

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424023546' post='2691672']
No.... don't go the 535 moulds route...!! it's a half way house. If you are going to pay for moulds and 535s, seriously, just go custom. The difference is way big. I tried telling Tonyf this... he ended up going to customs in the end anyway after going the Shure with moulds route. Listen to me on this one!

Also, read through the thread for opinions on ACS. They are OK - but ultimately, there are far better options for bass players, for lot less money. I have the live pack with a set of T1s. They are OK, but I'd rather take a better monitor with a decent aux feed over the T1s with the live pack (this all depends on the desk of course). For example, check out a 1964 quad. [url="http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/iems/1964-ears-1964-Qi-quad-driver-custom-in-ear-monitors.php"]http://www.custom-in...ar-monitors.php[/url] Seriously, spend half an hour or so reading through this whole thread. I reckon it gives you the best information that you can find on the net.

You are looking 260 + 130ish (factoring in impressions cost) for a set of Shure 535s with sleeves. 110 quid short of a full on custom (you can normally wangle free imps) with the treble, mid and dual lows that you really need. I know it's 110 quid but the difference between custom and universals is night and day and easily worth 110 for the comfort and perfect fit which gives you the uber clarity and thumping bass that you don't get with an ill-fitting universal. They will never fall out when you are performing... and above all, they are as cool as....

...and you can't put a price on that.
[/quote]

Your comments are very much appreciated and I will certainly give this thread a good read in detail. Speaking frankly, it's my hearing that needs looking after too and if I am already happy to pay for pro moulds just for protecting my lug-oles then I shouldn't skimp on getting good quality sound in to them either.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1424024450' post='2691690']
Your comments are very much appreciated and I will certainly give this thread a good read in detail. Speaking frankly, it's my hearing that needs looking after too and if I am already happy to pay for pro moulds just for protecting my lug-oles then I shouldn't skimp on getting good quality sound in to them either.
[/quote]

Indeed! Quad as a minimum... anything up from there is a bonus. I bet all your questions are covered off in the thread... if not, ask any questions below!

[Dood]

Once again, thank you

[s1ater]

I can Highly recommend cosmic ears for customs, great products and great price
http://www.cosmicears.com/shop/

[tonyf]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424023546' post='2691672']
No.... don't go the 535 moulds route...!! it's a half way house. If you are going to pay for moulds and 535s, seriously, just go custom. The difference is way big. I tried telling Tonyf this... he ended up going to customs in the end anyway after going the Shure with moulds route. Listen to me on this one!

Also, read through the thread for opinions on ACS. They are OK - but ultimately, there are far better options for bass players, for lot less money. I have the live pack with a set of T1s. They are OK, but I'd rather take a better monitor with a decent aux feed over the T1s with the live pack (this all depends on the desk of course). For example, check out a 1964 quad. [url="http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/iems/1964-ears-1964-Qi-quad-driver-custom-in-ear-monitors.php"]http://www.custom-in...ar-monitors.php[/url] Seriously, spend half an hour or so reading through this whole thread. I reckon it gives you the best information that you can find on the net.

You are looking 260 + 130ish (factoring in impressions cost) for a set of Shure 535s with sleeves. 110 quid short of a full on custom (you can normally wangle free imps) with the treble, mid and dual lows that you really need. I know it's 110 quid but the difference between custom and universals is night and day and easily worth 110 for the comfort and perfect fit which gives you the uber clarity and thumping bass that you don't get with an ill-fitting universal. They will never fall out when you are performing... and above all, they are as cool as....

...and you can't put a price on that.
[/quote]

Got an instant message on FaceBook from Russ earlier suggesting my services were required. So here I am. lol

I had a pair of SE535s with ACS sleeves. The sleeves made a world of difference to the isolation. They turned a good pair of off the shelf IEMs into a great pair. However, as Russ says, whilst the sleeves were really good, after a few gigs of pulling the IEMs out my ears only to leave the sleeves in my lug holes.

This purely practical issue led me to finally take the plunge and order a proper pair of custom molded 1964 Ears V8s. It wasn't until I'd finally popped these in that I realised that as good as the SE535s were with the sleeves, the V8s TOTALLY blew them out the water.

In terms of the IEMs, molds are the way to go. More expensive in the short term but they pay back in terms of quality and practicality. If it's in your budget, the V8s or the Roxannes that Russ has will give you ooooooodles of bottom end (I swear I can "feel" the bass when I wear mine).

Oh yeah, and aside from gigs, they sound flipping ace when listening to music.

[Dood]

Right, well that's it then. Has anyone got a gran I can sell? - Just need to decide which version to go for. Roxanne? V8? QI? A whole word of -I-dont-know-yet!

[tonyf]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1424040879' post='2691985']
Right, well that's it then. Has anyone got a gran I can sell? - Just need to decide which version to go for. Roxanne? V8? QI? A whole word of -I-dont-know-yet!
[/quote]

Speak to Paul at The Custom IEM Company. Me and Russ know him really well.

The Roxannes are really creme of the creme. Russ is delighted with his. I'm in love with my V8's. Bit like asking which is better, a P or a J or a custom 7 string monster? lol

Listen to stuff, Paul has loads of demo pairs you can try at the same time as taking your molds ;-)

Edited February 15, 2015 by tonyf

[EBS_freak]

In addition to what tonyf has said - Another thing to consider is lead times - the JH Audio stuff is way longer than the 64s. When I ordered my JH Audio stuff, I already had IEMs so it wasn't as though I needed them that bad... (although I did really want them!). The Roxannes are - and continue to be - a nightmare on lead-time, although I think they have reigned it in a bit now. I think off the top of my head, mine took nearly 9 months to arrive. The 64s I ordered - 5 weeks. The ACS, less than a fortnight - although I did wait over two years for the live pack to become available... and even then that was because I was given the opportunity to be a tester before it was officially released... which was many months later again. Anyway, no matter, the ambient pack is available now.

Also remember - and this is fairly crucial - that it's not all about driver count. In fact, 1964s released the V6 and V6s. Same driver count, very different sound signature (later tuned for more bass). Its about finding what you like. I could say to you, defo get a V8, defo get a Roxanne... but if you were to ask me what I would be happy with, in reality, a quad would do me just fine and sound incredible. I'd be equally at home with either a 64 quad or the JH11 (although the JH 11 is a couple hundred quid more!). So why did I buy a Roxanne? Well, it's because I'm an IEM slag and IEMs and monitoring, PA desks etc are my thing (if you hadn't figured by now) and at the time, they were the only IEM that you could get manufactured from solid carbon fibre. It wasn't really the driver count and I actually bought the Roxannes not having heard them - hence why I was shocked that it sounded nothing like the JH13 and JH16 that I shall discuss in a bit. I have to say though, I do love my Roxannes. They are simply awesome... but I do appreciate that they are at a serious cost - overkill city by most people's standards. What does a CF Roxanne run at now? Circa 1800 quid? That's a lot, a lot of money. You could get a V8 (or a JH11) AND a EW300/PSM300/PSM900 AND the channel 38 license for that... and still have change (depending upon which wireless unit you buy).

Another thing about the Roxanne which you may not realise - that due to the driver count (4 more BAs than a V8 or JH16 for example), it can be a large unit, so if you have small ears, then you run the risk of looking like Shrek. Fortunately, I seem to have a fair bit of space in my lugs but I have some seen some hideous examples where I think they protrude so far out of the ears than what I think is acceptable. (You should see the new JH universals, I think you could have trouble walking through doors with those!) Also, another "feature" of the Roxanne is that it has a non standard cable connector, which makes your task of finding an aftermarket cable a little more difficult should it break. JH seem to have adopted this new cable as their standard on their siren series... I don't think it's a problem per se, just thought I would mention if for completeness. If you go the Roxanne route, you need to know all the info which isn't necessarily made clear at time of order.

So... the JH13 vs the JH16 - some think that the JH13 is a more neutral IEM compared to the JH16, whereas others think that the JH16 is a bass monsters, where others think that it's too bass heavy! In the audiophile world, most think that the JH13 is king of the JH Audio range. (Well, until Angie and Layla came along - but they are shooting at a very different target - pure reference, flat response). When I listened to the JH13s, I loved them. When I listened to the JH!6s, they simply blew me away - but I am a bass head who probably likes a bit more bass in the mix than is really necessary (think everything you listen to having that club feel bass!). The thing is, when you get into this game, there aren't necessary any winners, they are just simply different.

The Roxanne for example, as mentioned, doesn't really have the JH Audio signature (typically very smiley face eq). Its a very laid back treble - despite having a quad in the high end - (the reason for this is to influence the impedance curves such that the frequency response goes even higher than most IEMs - useful if you still have your dog like hearing) with very detailed, yet thick mids and thundering bass... in all honesty though, it's probably capable of far too much bass than is practical. But hey, I love mine... and due to the recessed treble, can listen to music for a long, long, long time before fatigue sets in.

Then take the 64 V3 - its a fairly honest IEM and if you are listening to music, it's a fantastic choice. Then step up a driver to the quad and the tuning is naturally more bassy and more importantly, you have the extra headroom on the bass. This is why I always recommend the quad (dual lows, mid, treb) as a minimum for bass players. If you are watching the budget and like the sound of the quads, then they are probably the ones to go for because of 1) the cost 2) you are going to be taking your ears out before the bass drivers give up 3) beyond which you are into the laws of diminishing return...

I've ordered JH, ACS and 1964s and listened to my fair share of other IEMs. I have to say out the three Ive mentioned, I would say that the build quality is best on the 1964s... but if you have the opportunity to listen to the demo units, you have to find out what camp you sit in because different manufacturers have different sound signatures... and then within their models, there are different models each with different sound signatures due to the differing number of drivers and different tunings. It's about finding out what you like best. For example, you may find you prefer the V6s to say either the V4 or the V8. Even if you were to take a gamble and order any of the inears mentioned, you wouldn't be disappointed, we are talking about the nuances of each model coming out when you test them side by side.

If you must have the live ambient system, then ACS is the only choice (apart from sensaphonic who haven't got as good pack) - but I would say that this is a killer setup for vocalists more than bass players. Great ambient sounds can be achieved with standard IEMs anyway, especially if you have lots of open vocal mics (or alternatively a couple of condensers on stage) and the ability to get a stereo IEM mix. Anyway, the ACS monitors I personally don't find as good as the competition and the bass is what I would call adequate. I've not tried the new lineup of monitors yet but I was disappointed to see that they haven't included one with a dual low. Also dood, I suspect that your band plays pretty loud - and the mics do have a habit of distorting at high spl (even with the pads maxed out on the ambient pack). Its super expensive... and overall, I think people are creaming over it because they know no better. I've got it. I'm being honest. I still use them though - as variable earplugs. Ive even worn them when I've been in the audience at loud gigs. Bloody expensive earplugs though. Expensive units - look at the price of a triple T1 (or whatever it is called now) - which is actually a two BA unit (one of the BA units is a two in one) compared to a triple by the competition. As stated also, there is no comfort differences, in my opinion, between silicone and acrylic. You may think I am running the ACS units down - I'm not really - for singers at the west end or say singers in an orchestra, I suspect there is no better system. I just wish Andy and the guys would make a decent quad and beef up the microphones a bit to cater for those on smaller, louder stages - because it really is a killer concept.

Also, a lot of musicians in the UK rave about ACS because they are home grown and usually the company that everybody deals with when it comes to IEMs. Take it with a pinch of salt because these same guys have no other experience with any other IEMs or personal monitoring units, hence have no benchmark against which to draw any conclusions. You know what I'm saying here.

I'd definitely look at UE also and also noble... and I have to admit, those cosmic ears look great value for money although I must declare that I have never had any cosmic ears near my ear.

tonyf - scroll up. I notified you because your opinion on LD Systems stuff may be useful.

Edited February 16, 2015 by EBS_freak

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424003947' post='2691361']
Using one monitor in your ear is bad idea - its a surefire way to get hearing damage very quickly as you over compensate the monitor ear and end up blasting your ears. Ideally you should be routing everything you want to hear through IEMs. Have you tried the wedge route or one of those on micstand monitors. I've said it numerous times in the thread, you can't do good IEM on the cheap.

Woodinblack - Drop tonyf a line. He uses LD systems stuff (not entirely sure which one) that is a lot cheaper than the Shure and Sennheiser monitoring systems mentioned. Maybe for a little more money you can stretch to the MEI 1. Anyway, ask Tony, I've never heard one - we keen meaning to have a shoot out but various situations have prevented so far!

You can always put am ambient mic pointing at the band and send that only through the aux and not fog if the singer needs to hear more of the band. Depends how good the inears are at blocking out the sound.

Wireless mics and inears can be run simultaneously as long as there is enough space in the spectrum in which they are operating to run without running into intermodulation problems. In band 70 you can expect to run 3 or 4 wireless devices. In channel 38, (paid band), you can typically run to 8 devices and maybe 9 if you are willing to risk a little robustness (of course, there are now devices that can be run on very low transmission levels and you can cram many of those into a very small piece of the spectrum... but they tend to be very, very pricey).
[/quote]so if you use 2, but ones that haven't got very good isolation that should do the trick? I'm trying to find the easiest way to solve the monitoring problem for our singer without spending a load of cash and making setting up a pain in the arse.
for instance what's wrong with this? http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Wireless-In-Ear-Monitor-System-by-Gear4music/OUE

Edited February 16, 2015 by PaulWarning

[tonyf]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424055043' post='2692066']
tonyf - scroll up. I notified you because your opinion on LD Systems stuff may be useful.
[/quote]

Yeah, sorry. Never one to read anything properly before spouting off my opinions. lol

We've had the MEI1000s for over a year now since going fully IEM. Got two sets at the moment, each with two receivers. In terms of our desk, we're having to compromise a bit because of the limited aux outs so we've got a vocalists mix and then a band mix. TBH, the rest of us relying on a single mix hasn't been that much of a problem and we can live with it until we get the new desk (looking at a Mackie DL1608 or DL32R) with more outs and individual mixing.

This is where we'll be able to make use of the LD System's focus mode which allows you to send separate mixes left and right and then focus them at the receiver end. Means for 6 mixes, we have three transmitters. Pretty neat.

In terms of performance, as we've not had much to compare the MEI1000 against so can't really comment on these against the Shures or Sennheiser (or anything else). They work pretty well, the occasional bit of noise but nothing more than this. Personally, I think they're great value. Given more budget, we'd have gone for something Shure but that wasn't a worry at the time as it was trying to push water up hill trying to get the band to commit ANY cash. Think we've solved that problem of a bit of resistance now having had over a year of gigging with them. They'll more than do for the time being whilst we prioritize the spending on the new desk and IEM upgrades (the others have a selection of SE425s and SE535s which they want to replace with custom molds or reshells.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1424081555' post='2692245']
so if you use 2, but ones that haven't got very good isolation that should do the trick? I'm trying to find the easiest way to solve the monitoring problem for our singer without spending a load of cash and making setting up a pain in the arse.
for instance what's wrong with this? [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Wireless-In-Ear-Monitor-System-by-Gear4music/OUE"]http://www.gear4musi...-Gear4music/OUE[/url]
[/quote]

Potentially leaky monitors could do the trick to do the ambient thing - but monitors are all about control (you put what you want to hear down them with nothing from the outside world to harm the mix) - so if you go down that route, remember that each gig could be different in terms of volume (for example the guitar amp could be right behind the singer one gig and not the next). I've said it many times in this thread and I'll say it again, you can't really do an IEM solution on the cheap and it be good. If you compromise on aux send (e.g. desk), transmissions (e.g. the wired cable or wireless unit) or in ear monitors, you are already losing the game. I hear many people that have said they have tried IEMs and they are rubbish... but usually its because they have skimped on 1 (or usually all) of the 3 parts. I would suggest some moulded ear plugs and a wedge over IEMs if the cash is tight.

As for the monitoring system you posted, I have no experience of that system so can't comment on it's particular performance... but what I will say, my experience of cheaper systems is that they are noisy, lacking in bass, prone to drop outs and produce a generally harsh and fatiguing sound. Even some of the more expensive systems (e.g. the PSM200) - I think are very poor. It may be worth a punt... but be mindful that you would be lucky to get the same sort of quality out of a 60 quid system vs something like an EW300.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1424086952' post='2692350']
Potentially leaky monitors could do the trick to do the ambient thing - but monitors are all about control (you put what you want to hear down them with nothing from the outside world to harm the mix) - so if you go down that route, remember that each gig could be different in terms of volume (for example the guitar amp could be right behind the singer one gig and not the next). I've said it many times in this thread and I'll say it again, you can't really do an IEM solution on the cheap and it be good. If you compromise on aux send (e.g. desk), transmissions (e.g. the wired cable or wireless unit) or in ear monitors, you are already losing the game. I hear many people that have said they have tried IEMs and they are rubbish... but usually its because they have skimped on 1 (or usually all) of the 3 parts. I would suggest some moulded ear plugs and a wedge over IEMs if the cash is tight.

As for the monitoring system you posted, I have no experience of that system so can't comment on it's particular performance... but what I will say, my experience of cheaper systems is that they are noisy, lacking in bass, prone to drop outs and produce a generally harsh and fatiguing sound. Even some of the more expensive systems (e.g. the PSM200) - I think are very poor. It may be worth a punt... but be mindful that you would be lucky to get the same sort of quality out of a 60 quid system vs something like an EW300.
[/quote]cheers for the comment, we're not really after good quality, (within reason) the singer just wants to hear himself without the rest of us having really loud vocals through the monitor, as I said I don't want to go down the mic everything up route, I want to keep it as simple as possible

[EBS_freak]

For 60 quid, may aswell give it a shot to see if you can get something working.

[mr zed]

[size=4][color=#000000][font=Arial]My IEM setup comprises of a pre-used Sennheiser EW300 G2 (£300 off ebay – in great condition) and 1964 QI’s quads (£500 bought from Paul at The Headphone Company – highly recommended). I honestly believe that I could not have gone down the custom iem route of this quality any cheaper. I started off with some Westone UM2’s (universal) to get me going but it wasn’t long before I realised that these were too much of a compromise so I bit the bullet and ordered the quads. I’ve been using this system now for about 6 months and I couldn’t be happier. Comfort and fit is great (you forget that you are wearing them), they don’t fall out and the sound quality is fantastic – plenty of bass on tap whilst all the other frequencies are easily catered for. I sing backing vocals as well as playing bass and the quads offer plenty of definition and clarity. I’m running from 2 aux sends from the desk for the full stereo experience. I don’t think I would have got there without the help of Russ (EBS Freak) and Paul at The Headphone Company). Thanks guys. [/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial]This thread needs to be pinned![/font][/color][/size]

Edited February 16, 2015 by mr zed

[EBS_freak]

Thanks for the kind words mr zed. The only reason that I post so passionately here is because I know how good things can be with IEMs - it's a whole new world - but most people give up on them because they don't give it what it takes. As shown above, a quad with a G2 EW300 is incredibly good - note, a G2 to all intents and purposes is the same as the G3 in performance, except the G3 makes use of both the internal aerial and the monitor cable as an aerial for a little bit better reception. Unless you are on crazy big stages, the real world performance difference is negligible. (Note, G3 is not dual diversity - it just has a single antenna.)

[Dood]

I've done the whole thread! Wow, that's some superb information! A few models certainly crop up again and again, so I'll be basing my research specifically on those. Like you Russ, I am more likely to go for something that can be bass heavy and I am certainly looking for something that reaches up in to that 'air' of top end without fatigue in the 2-4k region. - That said, I do have a dip in my hearing in that area, so it might even be a good idea to seek some extra advice if I am armed with my hearing test results.

I'm not too fussed about being hard-wired and I've had a few ideas about channeling my ear feed with my usual guitar cable without too much fuss. I will look at a suitable module to act as my level control / brickwall limiter etc when a headphone mix isn't available too. I think I'll concentrate on the in-ears first.

Really, thank you all for the advice - Russ, especially you.

[tonyf]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1424207793' post='2693927']
Really, thank you all for the advice - Russ, especially you.
[/quote]

#IEM_Freak

;-)

[Dood]

[quote name='tonyf' timestamp='1424208179' post='2693930']
#IEM_Freak

;-)
[/quote]

Think he'll need to change his forum ID!

[Dood]

I've sent an email to Paul@ Custom IEM for a chat, looking at a purchase in the not tooooo distant future.

[EBS_freak]

Even if you make a choice on the model, you've got the nightmare choice of colour/design!

[Dood]

Yes, I'd spotted that and realised I may end up spending much longer looking for the ideal combination. That said, I really liked the pair n the gallery that were clear with the red writing on one and blue on the other. Simple, clean, no messing. But then, there's also translucent purple...

or trans blue with green tips....

wait... I'll be back later.. lol