In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[EBS_freak]

I been busy at soldering club again... well, not quite yet. Soldering still needs to be done... but been preparing the cable ready for the multitude of XLRs. 12 way loom for the inears rack - should tidy things up no end! 12 single XLRs is a bit cumbersome.


So yes, it's been an exercise in trying to figure out how to make a professional looking loom tonight! I think there was success. So, it's now fully braided, all the heat shrink is in place... next the soldering!

Got to love a project.

[LiamPodmore]

Does anyone have any experience with [url="http://www.rev33.com"]Rev33[/url] units? I've had one delivered today and just wondering if anyone else has used them.

[EBS_freak]

I know of the Rev33 - I nearly bought one but not heard one - I'm a bit put off that they are tuned to the IEMs you have... which means if you change your IEMs, the Rev33 then becomes sub optimal. I know they aren't crazy money though, especially when you consider the costs of some of the IEMs that we are using.

A couple of guys I know who have them swear by them though - say that their ears feel a lot less fatigued after a gig.

Mind you, I don't really suffer with ear fatigue after a gig... and even if I do, it's nothing that appears to bother me! Still, would love to try one out - after all, the proof is in the eating of the pudding... or something like that.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1473247125' post='3128277']
to be fair the keys player and drummer are using them now. i still have the keys coming over from his usual backline monitor but have to admit last gig, bass sound hell aside, not once did I need to signal turn up or down to him.

however...i just dont think our pa is up to putting whole band through at drummer volume though. plus no sound man means my bass tone is the least of my worries.

however..............IEM for me plus my backline ....hmmmmm........just use em for these venues......hmmmmm....... need to try before i buy i think. maybe this weekends wedding gig will be enough to send me over the edge........just in case it does.....what do i need to just hook me up whilst still using my rig? just out of interest of course....
[/quote]

From here - http://basschat.co.uk/topic/291361-concrete-boxagain/

What gear are you currently using Jim - as in both you and the band - and whats the lineup of instruments? What have you got to play with, just so I know what the cheapest way of getting you something good to try is.

What have you got in terms of PA, specifically, the desk.. and are your PA speakers suitable for vocal only or is it something that could take the whole band? (I think I recall you saying it was a vocal only PA at some point?)

[bassjim]

thanks mr ebs_freak..........me: jazz bass into a sadowsky pre amp pedal into EBS hd350 into cabs . The sadowsky has its own DI out available.

band: keys into desk with line out to monitor and IEM . drums gets a feed of vox,bass and keys at the mo. vox into pa and line feed back to monitor.

line up is bass, drums, one guitar,keys and vox/s.

PA is tops only. Although they are very good quality they couldnt handle a band. The desk I dont know a lot about other than it can do 2 separate mixes out to monitors. The keys player is also our sound man which 9/10 works very well for us.

At this stage Im thinking about IEM for me so I can hear ME with more clarity in these difficult rooms rather than opting for the band through the PA.

I understand the need and benifits where its appropriate but our guitarist will see it as an excuse to not bother with an amp ever again. yep,, Still stubborn as ever but will have a look and try it........I suppose.....hmm...ect ect

[EBS_freak]

Ok what I would do, is get something like this - https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_hpa_in_ear.htm

If you are not going through the desk, plug the DI out of your 350 into one side of the in ear amp. Have the other side receiving a monitor mix out of your desk (you may have to split and share a mix with somebody else in your band if you haven't got your own aux available.

If you run your headphone amp in mono, you'll have a "more me" feature - which means you'll be able to use the pan pot to adjust the split between your bass and the monitor mix e.g.60%bass, 40%monitor mix. By adjusting the pan between band feed and bass feed and then setting the master volume to taste, you should be able to hear yourself a lot louder. Hope this gets you somewhere!

If you are going to put your bass into the desk, obviously you would have to take an aux off the desk... granted you only have two so there would have to be a compromise to be drawn up between the band as to what the monitor feed sounds like.

You may want to try this with a decent set of headphones before you go too much further. Don't make the mistake of just using some iPhone headphones... you something decent so you get some headroom and a fighting chance of getting something that can handle bass.

[sunsse]

Regarding our bands recent issues with the lead singer not liking singing with IEMs. I followed all of your advices here and I got some advice elsewhere. What made the difference was [size=4] [/size]
1. Using a wired solution instead of wireless.

So this brings us to a new issue. The big problem was apparently delay that created some kind of occlusion effect that made his vocal feel distant and vague. But how do we reduce this latency with wireless? He would hate to have a cable running behind his feet all the time.

The latency troubled setup is still :
A&H qu 16 digital mixer console
Sennheiser ew 300 g2 wireless

The wired solution is just straight from mixer aux into headphones. Yes, the aux out can actually drive a pair of IEMs!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='sunsse' timestamp='1473502362' post='3130744']
Regarding our bands recent issues with the lead singer not liking singing with IEMs. I followed all of your advices here and I got some advice elsewhere. What made the difference was
1. Using a wired solution instead of wireless.

So this brings us to a new issue. The big problem was apparently delay that created some kind of occlusion effect that made his vocal feel distant and vague. But how do we reduce this latency with wireless? He would hate to have a cable running behind his feet all the time.

The latency troubled setup is still :
A&H qu 16 digital mixer console
Sennheiser ew 300 g2 wireless

The wired solution is just straight from mixer aux into headphones. Yes, the aux out can actually drive a pair of IEMs!
[/quote]

I can 100% guarantee the wireless latency aspect is not the problem.

The latency on analogue wireless is negligible so I can assure you it's nothing to do with the wireless system you mention - latency on that ew300 runs at about one tenth of a millisecond. Nobody's brain is that sensitive to pick up on that sort of latency. As mentioned in the thread numerous times, latency is the reason that digital inears (at least the wireless transmission aspect of it) is not common place.

Out of interest, was the desk the same with the wired setup? Did you literally swap the wireless out for wired on exactly the same setup at the same time and place? Are you running the gain too hot into the ew300? If you slam the front end, it will compress heavily and not sound great - but the screen on the unit should be illuminating red to tell you this. If you gain structure is wrong, it will sound pretty awful.

I can understand it more if you were going through a load of fx which introduces latency along the line.

What about the singer's mic? Is that wireless - and more importantly, is it digital? If so, what is it?

I've used a qu 24 with ew300s and psm200s and psm900s. I can guarantee it's not the wireless (assuming that there is nothing wrong with your unit). In fact, I've used ew300s g2 with behringer units and mackie digital units also - again, zero problems.

I don't think that it's unusual that a set of IEMs can be driven off an aux - the fischer passive solutions rely on you having a large output on the aux for you to then effectively cut using a pot on a passive belt pack. The downside if the that the impedance matching is not great - if you've bought a set of decent inears, why wouldn't you want to get the best out of them?

Edited September 10, 2016 by EBS_freak

[sunsse]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1473505718' post='3130797'] I can 100% guarantee the wireless latency aspect is not the problem. The latency on analogue wireless is negligible so I can assure you it's nothing to do with the wireless system you mention - latency on that ew300 runs at about one tenth of a millisecond. Nobody's brain is that sensitive to pick up on that sort of latency. As mentioned in the thread numerous times, latency is the reason that digital inears (at least the wireless transmission aspect of it) is not common place. Out of interest, was the desk the same with the wired setup? Did you literally swap the wireless out for wired on exactly the same setup at the same time and place? Are you running the gain too hot into the ew300? If you slam the front end, it will compress heavily and not sound great - but the screen on the unit should be illuminating red to tell you this. If you gain structure is wrong, it will sound pretty awful. I can understand it more if you were going through a load of fx which introduces latency along the line. What about the singer's mic? Is that wireless - and more importantly, is it digital? If so, what is it? I've used a qu 24 with ew300s and psm200s and psm900s. I can guarantee it's not the wireless (assuming that there is nothing wrong with your unit). In fact, I've used ew300s g2 with behringer units and mackie digital units also - again, zero problems. I don't think that it's unusual that a set of IEMs can be driven off an aux - the fischer passive solutions rely on you having a large output on the aux for you to then effectively cut using a pot on a passive belt pack. The downside if the that the impedance matching is not great - if you've bought a set of decent inears, why wouldn't you want to get the best out of them? [/quote]

That is great news. My conclusion is not really based on anything but stupid intuition. I will try some more adjustments with the gain structure and levels of the mix.
[size=4]I simply used the headphone port on the front of the ew300 transmitter.[/size]
The mic is wired and the only processing is reverb.

[EBS_freak]

Are your auxes set to prefader on your desk? Again, if you are using the onboard QU fx, latency isn't going to be an issue either - the latency on the onboard a&h fx processors is significantly under 1ms.

I would reset the sennheiser transmitter and receiver pack and do a clean setup just to make sure your haven't got anything out of shape on it. If you know what you are doing, limit on the desk and not the pack - the limiter on the a&h is a lot more natural than what the pack gives you.

I'm a bit confused about your statement about plugging into the headphone port on the ew300 though. That's not the same as plugging straight into the aux - or are you talking about something different again?

Wired mic is good - it takes the question of radio mic with long latency out of the picture completely.

[Owen]

I must admit that I would be looking for some possibility of phase issues. Balaned output but mono jack going to some sort of balanced at the other end?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1473509436' post='3130841']
I must admit that I would be looking for some possibility of phase issues. Balaned output but mono jack going to some sort of balanced at the other end?
[/quote]
EW300 G2 is balanced/unbalanced XLR. (This was changed for combo jacks on G3). Im guessing an XLR is in use - the outputs on the desk are balanced XLRs - so it's going to be balanced XLR to XLR.

Edited September 10, 2016 by EBS_freak

[Owen]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1473511392' post='3130879']
EW300 G2 is balanced/unbalanced XLR. (This was changed for combo jacks on G3). Im guessing an XLR is in use - the outputs on the desk are balanced XLRs - so it's going to be balanced XLR to XLR.
[/quote]

I would not be looking for phase issues. Totally not. Nope

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1473517873' post='3130948']


I would not be looking for phase issues. Totally not. Nope
[/quote]

Hahaha! Brilliant!

[EBS_freak]

This may or may not interest you - http://basschat.co.uk/topic/291710-ultimate-ears-ue900s

[Lee-Man]

[quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1473247265' post='3128278']
Does anyone have any experience with [url="http://www.rev33.com"]Rev33[/url] units? I've had one delivered today and just wondering if anyone else has used them.
[/quote]
[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1473250089' post='3128312']
I know of the Rev33 - I nearly bought one but not heard one - I'm a bit put off that they are tuned to the IEMs you have... which means if you change your IEMs, the Rev33 then becomes sub optimal. I know they aren't crazy money though, especially when you consider the costs of some of the IEMs that we are using.

A couple of guys I know who have them swear by them though - say that their ears feel a lot less fatigued after a gig.

Mind you, I don't really suffer with ear fatigue after a gig... and even if I do, it's nothing that appears to bother me! Still, would love to try one out - after all, the proof is in the eating of the pudding... or something like that.
[/quote]

Some limited stuff about the Rev33: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt4hDq0LA8Y

[EBS_freak]

There's a post on here that makes for interesting reading -

http://www.head-fi.org/t/802642/rev33-reduces-symptoms-of-temporary-tinnitus-and-ear-fatigue

[EBS_freak]

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/analogplanet-visits-jerry-harvey-audio#zPqDjvcJFuyxf33c.97

Thought some of you guys would find this interesting - I know that there's a few tour videos about (UE and 1964 have some great ones) but I find it interesting that Jerry Harvey stuff is very much still hand made as opposed to Logitech's operation at UE (which Jerry founded) that seems to have gone wholeheartedly into 3d printing. I think 64 Audio is that way now also.

[EBS_freak]

I stand corrected - JH are now doing 3D printing too!

[Dood]

After an excellent night last night depping for a band who are using the Allen & Heath Qu-16 (and obviously knowing how to set it up properly) I think I will look at going from a hard-wired set up to a making my in-ears wireless!

[Dood]

Has anyone had any experience with the Shure P9HW Wired system or similar? I like the look of this as the wearing on the belt, you haven't got the weight of two XLR cables and connectors. I found some talk of a P4 & P6HW too. On board parametric and limiter also sound convenient on the P9 without the additional cost of wireless kit.

Thoughts anyone? Alternatives?

Edited October 9, 2016 by dood

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1476043009' post='3150808']
Has anyone had any experience with the Shure P9HW Wired system or similar? I like the look of this as the wearing on the belt, you haven't got the weight of two XLR cables and connectors. I found some talk of a P4 & P6HW too. On board parametric and limiter also sound convenient on the P9 without the additional cost of wireless kit.

Thoughts anyone? Alternatives?
[/quote]
The P9HW still requires XLRs - it has a splitter cable that goes to two XLR cannons. I personally don't like it as I see it as a weakness that is bound to fail on you st some point - and you are unlikely to be able to source a spare easily.

The EQ on the pack is fairly primitive compared to what you can do with a decent desk and the limiter is pretty primitive too - all it does is set a max volume on the volume knob so if you turn it up it doesn't get any louder.

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476054216' post='3150931']
The P9HW still requires XLRs - it has a splitter cable that goes to two XLR cannons. I personally don't like it as I see it as a weakness that is bound to fail on you st some point - and you are unlikely to be able to source a spare easily.

The EQ on the pack is fairly primitive compared to what you can do with a decent desk and the limiter is pretty primitive too - all it does is set a max volume on the volume knob so if you turn it up it doesn't get any louder.
[/quote]

You sir, are a star. Again. Very valid points indeed. I liked the idea of having one single small connector on the pack on your belt rather than two big XLR type and their pair of cables hanging down. Less drag - and as I am hardwired on my bass two, thats three cables that hopefully could have been replaced with a smaller IEM cable and single instrument lead. You are quite right about a point of weakness and that you'd always have to carry a spare with the same LEMO connector. The XLR's at the other end are no problem of course.

I've looked in to the limiter and you are quire right! Not what I was expecting. I suppose my thought process was that if I were and will be doing more dep gigs with kit I am not familiar with, then having an additional brick wall limiter or EQ if necessary would form some extra belt n' braces should I get the wrong thing sent to my lug'oles!! I would of course hope that the IEM mix, from whatever source would be configured well and an enjoyable experience but kit and user experience can vary wildly. This week's gig it has to be said was an absolute joy to listen to though the '64 A8's!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1476101074' post='3151228']
You sir, are a star. Again. Very valid points indeed. I liked the idea of having one single small connector on the pack on your belt rather than two big XLR type and their pair of cables hanging down. Less drag - and as I am hardwired on my bass two, thats three cables that hopefully could have been replaced with a smaller IEM cable and single instrument lead. You are quite right about a point of weakness and that you'd always have to carry a spare with the same LEMO connector. The XLR's at the other end are no problem of course.

I've looked in to the limiter and you are quire right! Not what I was expecting. I suppose my thought process was that if I were and will be doing more dep gigs with kit I am not familiar with, then having an additional brick wall limiter or EQ if necessary would form some extra belt n' braces should I get the wrong thing sent to my lug'oles!! I would of course hope that the IEM mix, from whatever source would be configured well and an enjoyable experience but kit and user experience can vary wildly. This week's gig it has to be said was an absolute joy to listen to though the '64 A8's!
[/quote]

If you are worried about the physical size and mass of xlr cable, make up your own cable from some 2 way multicore. Should give you the function without two weighty cables.

OR... you may want to use something like this - http://www.jumpaudio.net/ixm.html - so you just get 1 cable going to you and your bass...

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476104931' post='3151294']
If you are worried about the physical size and mass of xlr cable, make up your own cable from some 2 way multicore. Should give you the function without two weighty cables.

OR... you may want to use something like this - [url="http://www.jumpaudio.net/ixm.html"]http://www.jumpaudio.net/ixm.html[/url] - so you just get 1 cable going to you and your bass...
[/quote]

Ah yeah, my friend Neil uses one of those but I've not tried one myself... I also kinda forgot that he sent me details about it too.. lol. Sorry Neil ha!