In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[mrtcat]

7 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It's more than the impression that leads to a good fit - fit is getting more consistent as more of the industry is using 3d printing to create the shells. The thing is, some of the less established companies are still casting the shells by hand... and this is where the fit issues can arrive.

In short, an impression is taken and shipped. During that period, the impression can be exposed to all sorts of temperatures and over time, the impression can shrink. So historically, it was important that the negative impression is made from the the impression pretty quickly. Before casting, the impression has to be trimmed and coated in wax to make it completely smooth. Obviously, this changes the size of the impression a little - but it can be potentially significant. Nowadays, the impressions are generally taken and laser scanned and then emailed. A lot of the historical problems are removed by doing this.

After this, the negative impression is used to make the resulting monitor - but remember, the negative is the size of that with the wax on it... so the resulting monitor has to be trimmed down a little. Too much and the result will be a loose fit.

The other thing is... is that your ear can actually change. As you age, the ear changes shape... and additionally, if you change weight, the ear canal dimensions will also change - and this can also impact the fit. This also changes from person to person also - just to make things more complex!

The loose fit is not actually that big of an issue - all which is done is that they'll add some additional acrylic to whats already there and polish it up. It sounds like this is what needs to be done on yours. The fit should be tight - but not such that it hurts... but it should consciously take a bit of working to get into your ear canal for a proper fit. If it hurts, or hurts after a while, the inear is too big. (In which case, they shave down a slither of acrylic).

That's really helpful info thank you. I might give custom iems a shout and see what they think. I'm sitting at my desk now and just put my iems in. If I click my fingers gently I can hear it pretty clearly at probably 50% of the volume I'd hear without them in.  Maybe I just need to stop cleaning my ears and let the wax build up lol.

Edited June 18, 2018 by mrtcat

[EBS_freak]

4 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

That's really helpful info thank you. I might give custom iems a shout and see what they think. Maybe I just need to stop cleaning my ears and let the wax build up lol.

No worries - you may want to give some wraps a go. They may seem pretty DIY - but they actually work well. JH Audio supply them with some of their monitors now also -

https://www.complyfoam.com/products/customwraps/

Edited June 18, 2018 by EBS_freak

[mrtcat]

1 minute ago, EBS_freak said:

No worries - you may want to give some wraps a go. They may seem pretty DIY - but they actually work well. JH Audio supply them with some of their monitors now also -

https://www.complyfoam.com/products/customwraps/

I'm on it! Will report back after trying the wraps.

[mrtcat]

22 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

No worries - you may want to give some wraps a go. They may seem pretty DIY - but they actually work well. JH Audio supply them with some of their monitors now also -

https://www.complyfoam.com/products/customwraps/

Just arrived and i've had a go with them. They definitely make a difference to the isolation and there is a noticeable improvement in the low end. They're a little uncomfortable when you first put them in but that soon goes. I'll be interested to see how they fare for a 2 hr gig. My wife suggested building up a layer of clear acrylic nail polish around the same part of the iems that you wrap the comply wraps around as a more permanent solution. Not sure I have the bottle to do something like that tho.

[Osiris]

12 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

My wife suggested building up a layer of clear acrylic nail polish around the same part of the iems that you wrap the comply wraps around as a more permanent solution. Not sure I have the bottle to do something like that tho.

I think you're right to be cautious. Nail varnish will contain some sort of solvent in which the acrylic is dissolved, so when the solvent evaporates it leaves behind the acrylic layer. There is a possibility that whatever solvent is used in the nail polish could interact with the acrylic used on the IEM - it is a solvent that can dissolve at least some acrylic materials after all. It may not affect it at all, of course, but there is still a risk no matter how small. 

[EBS_freak]

5 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Just arrived and i've had a go with them. They definitely make a difference to the isolation and there is a noticeable improvement in the low end. They're a little uncomfortable when you first put them in but that soon goes. I'll be interested to see how they fare for a 2 hr gig. My wife suggested building up a layer of clear acrylic nail polish around the same part of the iems that you wrap the comply wraps around as a more permanent solution. Not sure I have the bottle to do something like that tho.

That kind of confirms that there's defo an issue with the fit of your IEMs - the improvement in the low end is that first tell tale sign. Like I've said before, the seal is the most important thing with regard to keeping the bass response as good as it can be - thats why I would urge people to keep away from vented ports/ambient ports. It may be the case that your inear is literally a fraction of a mm too shallow and that is what is causing the fit issue... or maybe you have lost a little weight. Instead of the wraps, maybe replace them with some pies? 😛 

Some of the audio nuts experiment with all sort of modifications to their inears, from cables and tips and in this case, guys that despite having a perfect fitting inear, wanting that feeling of resistance that the additional wraps give. That's not to say the fit is bad in that case, just not what the end user is wanting - hell, if anybody wants to have ear canal pain whilst listening to music, all the power to them! When I saw that JH included this wraps, it did make me raise an eyebrow as it kind of gives the impression that their fitting is bad - which on the whole they are not!

Refits are inevitable, it the nature of the business - I'm sure Paul from CIEMco will confirm that - but given the technology that I've mentioned previously, that number has reduced greatly over the years. Given the number of impressions he alone takes ever year and the number of refit requests, his fit ratio is super, super, super high. Dont forget though - our ears continue to grow and change shape... so the general rule is allow for a refit every 5 years (I know you haven't had yours that long). Having said that, my oldest IEMs, still fit perfect. Other folks may not share the same story though. Like many things, mileage may vary.

[EBS_freak]

Was watching the latest Mackie announcements last night... looks like theres some significant updates to their DL range... iOS/Android/PC/Mac controllable mixers, extra fx, stagebox format hardware... another suitable candidate for those wanting a decent mixer for an IEM setup.

[mrtcat]

May not be the best on the market but this looks like quite an affordable way in for custom moulds. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007KLXMDE/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B007KLXMDE&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=2784349025056798016&pf_rd_r=BH616H5AJF7W988XKYGZ&pd_rd_wg=TKUft&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&pd_rd_w=446hs&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pd_rd_r=b21818ba-755a-11e8-90e8-ef1b20bdf314

I'm possibly going to upgrade my custom moulds in the next few months and am currently considering options. Budget about £800 and want something with plenty of lows.

Edited June 21, 2018 by mrtcat

[EBS_freak]

I can't vouch for the above... but what I will say is that there's an awful lot going on with regard to custom balanced armatures and tuning, getting everything in phase... so it's about as much as whats going on inside as much as the custom fit element. Certainly may be a good shout for the price though... who knows?

JH11 springs to mind - £800 for a quad seems the obvious choice. Great sounding IEM.

 

[mrtcat]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

JH11 springs to mind - £800 for a quad seems the obvious choice. Great sounding IEM.

 

Very much on my radar.

[EBS_freak]

New toy - these don't seem to be readily available but managed to track one down on a bit of a whim. I 've got some gigs coming up with a band that run a fair bit of a wireless and don't want to be that annoyance that turns up with a load of wireless to complicate matters! Also, they are a bit less clunky than the studiospares headphone amps Ive got... and a bit less risky than taking a P9RHW.

So here it is - Behringer PM2. I have to say, having used the Fischer sticks with a band that I also play for, the Behringer *ahem* version of it is equally well built... and dare I say it, I think I prefer the uncluttered look of the Behringer version. It's certainly less busy on the white lettering front than the Fischer. I paid just under £40 for the PM2. The Fischer comes in at just over £120. That's some saving there. So for those that don't know what they are looking at, it's a belt mounted headphone amp - better than trying to drive your headphones directly from an aux.... Plus it has the some basic mono/stereo switching (essentially if you don't want your mono mix just coming out of one ear on your headphones!)

So, stereo or mono operation (there's a little switch inside that changes between the two modes) - combo jack on the bottom... so TRS/XLR for UNbalanced stereo, or TRS/XLR for balanced mono... and I'm guessing - not that I've checked... a TS will give you unbalanced mono also... (with switch in mono). So, in my gig bag of goodies, I've got a long XLR, a long TS cable, balanced dual XLR split to single unbalanced  XLR, Dual TRS to single XLR and a TRS to XLR adapter... (a bit like this - https://www.kenable.co.uk/en/xlr-plugs-connectors/6096-kenable-xlr-male-plug-3-pins-to-635mm-trs-balanced-jack-plug-audio-adapter-006096-5055383460960.html - useful into plugging into the QSC desks that have stereo TRS auxes especially for inears) - that should cover me for most wired situations, I should think!

Good stuff. With gadgets like this and the ZS10 appearing for the price that they are, why wouldn't you be embracing IEMs?! So assuming that you have an aux available on your desk, for under £75 (and maybe add another £15 for cables for your specific mixer - so say for under £100 all in)... there's no excuse to not be ragging your ears anymore. And the upside is that you can hear absolutely everything that is going on. Win, win.

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by EBS_freak

[tonyf]

I've just been looking at getting one of these as a spare in case the wireless goes down. However, noticed there's the P1 too. 

https://www.musictri.be/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/In-Ear-Monitoring/P1/p/P0AZM

What's the difference? We'd only be using a mono mix so probably the P2 in mono looks to be a neater and smaller solution.

 

 

[EBS_freak]

38 minutes ago, tonyf said:

I've just been looking at getting one of these as a spare in case the wireless goes down. However, noticed there's the P1 too. 

https://www.musictri.be/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/In-Ear-Monitoring/P1/p/P0AZM

What's the difference? We'd only be using a mono mix so probably the P2 in mono looks to be a neater and smaller solution.

 

 

There's 3 options from Behringer... The P2 has an amp in it... the P1M hasn't. The P1M is literally a volume cut - so strictly speaking you need an amp in front of it... although you can run a set of IEMs straight from the Aux. (Ugh).

The P1 has an amp in also - but has dual XLR inputs so allows for a balanced stereo input as opposed to the stereo unbalanced limitation of the P2. In reality - this doesn't mean that big a deal - it just means you will get less signal loss with the P1 than the P2. Will you notice for the length runs that you have? Probably not - in fact, I'm going to say no.

I'm also guessing that the dual input summed to mono (and controlled via the L/R pan) will also give you a "more me" function if you were to split a signal from your pedal (landing) board to the beltpack. Actually, thinking about the size of your pedal board... you may want to rethink the amount of signal you are going to lose... that pedal board is just short of a kilometer now isn't it?

[EBS_freak]

45 minutes ago, tonyf said:

I've just been looking at getting one of these as a spare in case ...

 

 

Ha - that's the lamest GAS coverup I've ever seen. You just want a new gadget don't ya?

[MoJoKe]

On 25/06/2018 at 11:31, EBS_freak said:

New toy - these don't seem to be readily available but managed to track one down on a bit of a whim...

Snap!  Just bought one on Amazon...    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-000-CH400-00010-Powerplay-Personal-Amplifier/dp/B0784TMYPN

 

[tonyf]

46 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Actually, thinking about the size of your pedal board... you may want to rethink the amount of signal you are going to lose... that pedal board is just short of a kilometer now isn't it?

I'm only taking the small one out nowadays following all the criticism

 

[EBS_freak]

16 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

Snap!  Just bought one on Amazon...    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-000-CH400-00010-Powerplay-Personal-Amplifier/dp/B0784TMYPN

 

Ha enjoy - what are you using at the moment? It looks like a Behringer restock has landed in the UK!

Edited June 26, 2018 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Just now, tonyf said:

I'm only taking the small one out nowadays following all the criticism

 

You've cut most of it out of the picture. Take a good few steps back son... and get a wider lens.

[burno70]

I've been using the Behringer P2 for a couple of months and love it. Doesn't pull your pants down like the heavy P1, and as EBS Freak rightly said, the P2 has a built in headphone amp unlike the P1M. Gigged with it a few weeks ago and it works really well. Big thumbs up from me as a noob to IEM. And I can happily use it whilst I save up for a wireless system.

[Dood]

On 25/06/2018 at 11:31, EBS_freak said:

New toy - these don't seem to be readily available but managed to track one down on a bit of a whim. I 've got some gigs coming up with a band that run a fair bit of a wireless and don't want to be that annoyance that turns up with a load of wireless to complicate matters! Also, they are a bit less clunky than the studiospares headphone amps Ive got... and a bit less risky than taking a P9RHW.

So here it is - Behringer PM2. I have to say, having used the Fischer sticks with a band that I also play for, the Behringer *ahem* version of it is equally well built... and dare I say it, I think I prefer the uncluttered look of the Behringer version. It's certainly less busy on the white lettering front than the Fischer. I paid just under £40 for the PM2. The Fischer comes in at just over £120. That's some saving there. So for those that don't know what they are looking at, it's a belt mounted headphone amp - better than trying to drive your headphones directly from an aux.... Plus it has the some basic mono/stereo switching (essentially if you don't want your mono mix just coming out of one ear on your headphones!)

So, stereo or mono operation (there's a little switch inside that changes between the two modes) - combo jack on the bottom... so TRS/XLR for UNbalanced stereo, or TRS/XLR for balanced mono... and I'm guessing - not that I've checked... a TS will give you unbalanced mono also... (with switch in mono). So, in my gig bag of goodies, I've got a long XLR, a long TS cable, balanced dual XLR split to single unbalanced  XLR, Dual TRS to single XLR and a TRS to XLR adapter... (a bit like this - https://www.kenable.co.uk/en/xlr-plugs-connectors/6096-kenable-xlr-male-plug-3-pins-to-635mm-trs-balanced-jack-plug-audio-adapter-006096-5055383460960.html - useful into plugging into the QSC desks that have stereo TRS auxes especially for inears) - that should cover me for most wired situations, I should think!

Good stuff. With gadgets like this and the ZS10 appearing for the price that they are, why wouldn't you be embracing IEMs?! So assuming that you have an aux available on your desk, for under £75 (and maybe add another £15 for cables for your specific mixer - so say for under £100 all in)... there's no excuse to not be ragging your ears anymore. And the upside is that you can hear absolutely everything that is going on. Win, win.

 

Incidentally, to receive a stereo signal on the Fischer stick (two XLR's from the desk) in to one single XLR, it actually needs to be a special cable. I sent the schematic diagram to our very own cable genius @obbm who made me up said cable in a custom length. A normal XLR splitter won't divide the signal in to stereo.

If the P2 is an exact, err, copy, then it's worth noting that their manual isn't quite right. They suggest using an XLR to TRS cable and switching the P2 to stereo is enough to receive a stereo signal. Rarely the case as I can't think of any digital desks that can switch from a balanced line XLR to unbalanced stereo XLR configuration on one single socket. In this case I would actually suggest they include Dual Female XLR to TRS (unbalanced stereo cable) as an option as these are more readily available than the custom cables from Fischer.*

*Will happily be corrected if Behringer haven't completely copied the design.

[EBS_freak]

@dood - Yes - you need to lift pin 3 on the two XLR jacks that you put into the mixer. Been there done that - I've made up some cables for a band that was having such difficulties!

With regard to the your comment about XLR to TRS - it holds for the QSC touchmix mixers - I'll put a pic in below.

http://portalnaglosnieniowy.eu/images/stories/Prezentacje/QSC-TouchMix16-OS3/QSC-TouchMix16-OS3-10-stereo-mono-AUX-7-10.png

If you check this pic, (for some reason it's not automatically converting it to a pic to show in the post), you'll see that it's got a TRS jack socket for auxes 7/8 and 9/10. Effectively this is an unbalanced stereo out... so using a single TRS jack to XLR will give you a stereo mix on the Fischer/P2... but granted, this is not overly common for a mixer!

Most mixers will either be a mono balanced TRS jack output per channel, or a standard XLR balanced out per channel - in both cases you would expect to need two to give you a stereo feed, either balanced... or non balanced with "the special lead".

With the QSC Touchmix mixers, if you were to use the auxes on the back, you would have to use "the special lead" - as they are balanced XLR (unlike the ones that are on the front of the unit as shown above). So... in summary, two balanced XLRs would need to be summed to a single unbalanced stereo XLR. It's an abuse of the cables really - as I'm a bit of a believer that a XLR should always be balanced and mono (unless its the 5 pin variant that breaks out into 2 2 pin mono XLRs)... but hey, it does the job I guess.

So for the QSC, that adapter that I posted a few posts above, works nicely... take a XLR cable, stick the adapter on the end and plug that into the QSC and the other end into your monitoring stick... job done... but you are lugging around less cables and it's a standard XLR cable you are carrying around. I would urge people that are making up a Y adapter, to not make a long cable... that way, you just have a Y cable (or pair if you want to keep a spare) and into that you can plug a standard XLR... which should be readily available at a gig. I'm always a firm believer that carrying around custom cables is a nightmare waiting to happen when that cable breaks... especially if it's a cable that is going to be moving around with your and will subsequently have a higher chance of breaking/being stepped on etc.

Anyway... most mixers will either be a mono balanced TRS jack output, or a standard XLR balanced out - in both cases you would expect to need two to give you a stereo feed, either balanced - or non balanced with "the special lead". The QSC is one exception.

 

I *think* that makes sense.... 😛 (especially now that I've edited to be more coherent! )

Edited June 26, 2018 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, burno70 said:

I've been using the Behringer P2 for a couple of months and love it. Doesn't pull your pants down like the heavy P1, and as EBS Freak rightly said, the P2 has a built in headphone amp unlike the P1M. Gigged with it a few weeks ago and it works really well. Big thumbs up from me as a noob to IEM. And I can happily use it whilst I save up for a wireless system.

That's actually a very good point. Worth mentioning that you really need some trousers that aren't going to move anywhere.. with a cable hanging from it, it does make a good attempt to head for the ground. Not as big deal for blokes as women... (Last gig, the singer in the band I was playing for turned up in a dress and had nowhere to hang her monitor stick from. At the rehearsal before the gig she had been wearing jeans and a sturdy belt.... her flimsy little black number didn't give much in the way of options...!)

[EBS_freak]

In other news, courier insurance has paid out on my lost IEMs... so it's time to get busy looking...

Current wishlist...

JH : Lola, Roxanne, Layla

64 : N8, 12t, 18t

UE : Live

Noble : Kaiser Encore

...but the hardest decision is quite possibly the colour scheme! 😛

[Dood]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

In other news, courier insurance has paid out on my lost IEMs... so it's time to get busy looking...

Current wishlist...

JH : Lola, Roxanne, Layla

64 : N8, 12t, 18t

UE : Live

Noble : Kaiser Encore

...but the hardest decision is quite possibly the colour scheme! 😛

Trip to see our man at The IEM Company then! 

[tonyf]

16 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

That's actually a very good point. Worth mentioning that you really need some trousers that aren't going to move anywhere.. with a cable hanging from it, it does make a good attempt to head for the ground. Not as big deal for blokes as women... (Last gig, the singer in the band I was playing for turned up in a dress and had nowhere to hang her monitor stick from. At the rehearsal before the gig she had been wearing jeans and a sturdy belt.... her flimsy little black number didn't give much in the way of options...!)

Fixed!